dare-to-fly

I could probably look this up easier, but I want to be lazy. How many total TOGO stand-up coasters are still operating in the US?

Take a nap. Speaking of which, so should I.

Do you mean cannon? The only canyon I know of at KI is Beast Canyon. And...I'm ashamed to admit, I draw a blank.

^ Paddle boats would be a great fit to go with those neat flower pot holders. I've heard the "where else?" a lot less these days. Is it my imagination and I'm not paying attention, or have they slacked off on daring the customers to go somewhere else?

If it is true, that speaks volumes about why they test run coasters as much as they do.

Justice!! Ha ha! I love it. The ones that are actually in need will end up getting more money than those who just want to be a jerk. It makes perfect sense to me.

I didn't say they were, and I'm sorry if I made it sound that way. At any rate, I personally feel that the overall speed has changed for the most part. There are good rides to be had in the afternoon and evening usually, but if you really want to feel the braking at its worst, ride in the morning. The brake takes most of the fun out of it. I really wish they were adjustable, but that isn't my department. Anyway, probably the thing that I resent the most is the ruining of a good airhill because of the positioning of that second magnetic brake. I hate that brake. Not that I like any of the others, but that is the one that really bothers me. I'm not disputing that.

That's probably one of them. Poor old KC can't even rest in peace. I guess at least he lives on in that way, but he has a very undeserved stigma.

I guess we can count our blessings that the rides at Kings Island wait until there is at least a steady pour (usually) before closing. Even then, some still continue to operate. It's never fun to wait out a rainstorm looking at a coaster that isn't running. I tend to stay away on days when storms are likely or go to parks that I know will operate as long as no lightning is present.

I'll have to remember that. The person I recently talked to claimed to have been in the park "the day that the kid got killed on King Cobra" to which I said nothing, but I thought I would ask. That person claimed this incident as the reason he wouldn't ride on coasters. Somehow I don't think he would ever believe me, so I'll probably just let that one go.

Did you know the operator? How are you so sure it was spite, and not an honest mistake? Your constant "jump to conclusions" and assumptions about things makes people reading your posts question you. Thinking about this logically, what would you call this conversation over the microphone (late in the evening). I'll go ahead and give the coaster name, since by now no one will ever know who said what. As I'm waiting in line... Operator: "Oops, I mean Flight Deck. Sorry, but this will always be Top Gun in my heart. Train is dispatched and the train I was to board comes in. Boarding is over and bars are released. Operator: "How many of you here wish this was still called Top Gun?" Many raise their hands. Me: "I doubt she was supposed to say that!" Operator: "Me too...so enjoy your ride on Top Gun: The Jet Coaster!" Person I was with: "I know she wasn't supposed to say that!" Now, with that commentary, how is it immature, illogical, or irrational to assume that this was intentional? Is it not obvious that this was said on purpose? Obviously it was unintentional first, but then a perfectly intentional second time is illogical? Bliss yourself. If I'm ignorant, I'd like to know what sane looks like. On another note, at least I agree with the majority of what was said in your post. I also appreciate your honesty about the brakes and the overall ride experience. At least there is someone chiming in with some sense about what speed feels like. Except for the ones on the helix. But I never said anything to the contrary. The rest of the youtube videos show skids on the helix as well, so I'm fully aware that they were added soon after. Again, I never said anything to the contrary. The trim strength is what I dispute, and thanks for agreeing.

I've heard this rumor before, and recently heard it again. Was anyone ever killed on King Cobra or not?

Obviously I will have to post some links to videos that were taken at later times, which are quite readily available on YouTube. It'll have to be tomorrow, because I'm not going to go through collections of YouTube videos with dial-up, sorry. Well if you feel that way, why would you claim this??. Not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean saying the trims have changed, it's because in my observation and opinion, The Beast seems to be much slower now than it used to be. I'm not the only one that has observed this, as there are a plethora of fellow Beast riders out there who agree. That, like your opinion, makes no sense. What exactly makes no sense. The fact that there are many people out there who make this claim, or that you just don't want to believe that it might be true? The ride slowing more and more every year and multiple people that make the "trimless ride" claim. Perhaps it's just the optimist in me. That's not what I said. I have made the claim that the brakes are used to the point of overkill, and I still maintain that. The brakes being off the second hill would be enough for me, even if the rest were still there. That would keep it reasonable to maintain, since all the brakes wouldn't be taken off, and I think it would shut most of the enthusiasts up while still keeping the "family friendly" atmosphere of the ride. A little extra speed won't make the ride unbearable unless maintenance abandons it. Point taken. As I really have no qualifications, I can't dispute the design, nor do I want to. I can dispute how much they brake it without needing qualifications, which is all I have done in this post. As far as I can see from the video, The Beast was designed with brakes, so obviously they just wanted the record. My only point is, a little more force wouldn't be that big a deal, and it would give the riders of The Beast a great ride every time instead of having to score a "lucky ride" every once in a while. Then why not call it Scooby Doo? Or do you have a difficult time handling things you cannot control? Go right ahead and call it Scooby Doo if you want. I won't say a word. I've just always felt that The Beastie was an overly cool name for a kiddy coaster, and I don't want to loose that even if the park does. As long as I'm not spouting off the old name if I ever operate that coaster (which I heard done at a coaster in the park this season, and she did it for spite) I really don't see the problem here. And to the second part of that post, yes, one of many reasons I went into education. Control freaks are very common in the world, so if you aren't used to the competition, get used to it. EDIT: As to the new post, see you found one! And that may be one person's opinion, but please note that my claim is not to ditch the brakes on all public rides, but to reduce the braking by simply removing the brake on the second hill. And I would still kill for a trimless ride.

The answer..... Many, Many, Many Rampant fraud is the prime reason that Insurance Companies have special investigations. Those units are composed primarily of people with backgrounds in criminal justice and former police officers. So much fraud just goes unrecognized because there simply are not the funds to appropriately address it. For every legitimate personal injury claim I settle, I'd bet that I settle 3 bogus ones. That's just sad! I wish everyone would just get along and do what they are supposed to do. Be honest. And the litigious society we live in is the reason for so many annoying laws. It all starts with someone screwing it up for the rest of us. The same is true of seatbelt and lap bar styles on coasters, being as there were idiots that stood up. There is also the issue of park responsibility. Back in the day, it was the guest's responsibility to behave, now it's the parks responsibility to make them behave. I find that unfair, but that's just the way it goes. How often do you see commercials on TV that have one giant message buried in there "sue somebody." There are lawyer commercials at least every other commercial break these days. On a funnier note, it's also the source of some pretty silly and entertaining laws. Think about it. For something to become a law, someone had to do it first. In Florida (at least I think it was Florida), there is a special law that says you can't walk an alligator on a leash. I'd like to know who tried that! I also remember one state that has a law against women driving in a housecoat. I'd like to see that one enforced.

Okay, you've made those claims again and again, now prove it! How can you possibly prove that trimless rides never happened or that all the people who say they have experienced them are liars? Good luck. If my facts are wrong, and I find them to be wrong, then I'll admit that they're wrong. And...that's the beautiful thing about this country and everyone being able to choose their own opinions. It makes conversation so much more enjoyable. For example, I am choosing to have the opinion that you are incorrect about The Beast having two different methods of braking at the same time. I believe the reason that The Beast's skid brakes were replaced was because of a minor collision in the station that was caused by wet skid brakes. Ergo, the reason they were replaced. What evidence do I have? The video that I posted back around page 6 will clearly show skid brakes in the brake run and the station. There is also a clear view of the brakes in the brake shed, or as you call them, the brake line. Nowhere in the video is there a pneumatic pinch brake, which leads me to believe they weren't installed until the skid brakes were replaced. I can check out the numerous videos on You Tube that were taken over the years if needed, but I really don't see the point, as I know what I'll find. I've watched numerous times. I'm under the impression that the brake fin was actually mounted on the skid just like poor Jack Rabbit at Kennywood now is. This means there would be no room for a chain dog, skids on both sides and a brake fin. The logic just isn't with you on that one. My opinion has to go with what I can see. I'm not naive enough to take anyone's word for something when I see the direct opposite is true. You just can't tell me that a road was paved in 1980 when I saw it in gravel until 1995, and it was paved in 1996 right in front of my house. Weird example, I know, but it gets my point across. If you have any pinch brake proof, let me see it. Now, family friendly is definitely true for The Beastie, and yes I know it is called a different name. I'm usually good at calling things by their current names, see Flight Deck, Drop Tower, Invertigo, etc. However, I refuse to use a name that I think is totally lame when it had such a cool former name. I'm willing to use Flight Deck because I wasn't ever partial to the name Top Gun. As for the trim, please tell me the purpose, and why it needs one if it isn't on there just for maintenance. I've ridden it numerous times without the trim, and it's a blast for a kiddy coaster. I've never heard anyone complain, and it isn't fast enough to be rough as long as it has some TLC every now and then. Also, Holiday World is also a family friendly park. After all, their slogan is "Number 1 for Family Fun," yet they let their coasters run trimless. If you say trims are on coasters like Beastie, The Beast, Gemini, Magnum, etc. so everyone can enjoy them, okay...but when I have that kind of comparison, I know where my opinion lies. I believe what I see in front of me, not someone else's illogical logic. I'll take my own very logical logic, or illogical logic if it is, and form my opinions on that. I certainly do enough of that. I do enjoy the coasters, and would a lot more if they were allowed to move. And I would get over it if they were there to a lesser extent. And no, I can't help it if there are trims on coasters, but I can certainly complain about it on a forum in the same way that everyone else complains about food prices, drink prices, admission prices, policy problems, gas prices, rhubella, measles, oops...I got tired and went a different way with listing all of the different things I have seen complained about on a forum. Pointedly, those who don't want to read this thread need not.

Thanks for reminding me why I don't like to post on here much anymore. Oh BTW, your opinion is wrong. Apparently you need to look the word opinion up in the dictionary. Someone's opinion can never be "wrong" because it is their opinion. Facts can be wrong and people can base their opinions on incorrect facts, but there are no wrong opinions from anyone.

It sounds to me like the point was it could be closer to #1 if at least some of the trims were taken off. And since you brought it up, check the other polls and see what you come up with. Probably something very similar.

However, the way they are being used constitutes trimming. Even when SOB is back safely in the station, the mid-course is the same. As is FOF and Vortex. If it was used to stop the trains when needed, fine. That's an understandable issue. Now who's splitting hairs. How do they constitute trimming? They are block brakes designed to keep the trains in the particular blocks for safety reason. Who are you to say that the ride would be perfectly fine or a "better" ride if those mid course brakes, that you seem to consider trims, were not there. The ride was designed that way for a reason. The trims on other rides are there for a reason. Safety, maintenance, and reliability. How many times does that needed to be pointed out? Not sure which block brake you are talking about as The Beast has several sets of brakes that seperate its blocking system, however, I will assume you are talking about the brakes at the brake line. As pointed out in my earlier post; the brake line had always featured a skid friction brake that led into pneumatic pinch brakes that could be closed and used as part of the blocking system. There used to be feed motors on the side in the event a train was stopped there. In later years the feed motors were removed, the blocking system was changed and the only trimming there was done by the skid brakes and pneumatic pinch brakes. Currently there are only magnetic brakes there. ...And they were able to put the extra brake fin where? And why would they not use the pp (what an interesting initial) brakes in the station if they were used out on the track somewhere? It doesn't make since. However, yes, that is the brake I'm referring to, and how well I know that The Beast has several sets of brakes. I still maintain...oh my gosh I maintained something...that if maintenance was done properly there would be no need for trim overkill. I think you are missing my point. The only thing that I'm saying is the trims at KI, be them from trim brakes, mid-courses, or others, are being used to the point of overkill. That is my OPINION, is all! If you don't agree with me, fine. Regardless, I will positively not accept that it is the only way to run the park when there are so many that don't (even some in the CF chain which shall remain up in the air lest anyone from CF reads this and gets ideas). As for how do I know, I've ridden Beast (IMO--not going there for this one), Son of Beast, Flight of Fear, and Vortex (somewhat) with much less trimming than is average now, and I've ridden The Racer, and The Beastie with no trims, and since those weren't original I don't see any point at all especially the one on Beastie. But I don't want to go there again either, find the old argument for Racer. It's on this forum somewhere. Either way, The less trims, the better the ride experience. They don't get rough beyond reason, and there is no valid reason IMO for the increase or addition of trims years after the ride opens (meaning Racer and Beastie for addition). You know as well as I do that Flight of Fear never used to stop at the mid-course, and they certainly have not added any trains or anything else for that matter, and turning the launch speed down is just icing on the cake. Trim brakes on The Beastie, good grief!

Yes I know they are block brakes, however, the way they are being used constitutes trimming. Even when SOB is back safely in the station, the mid-course is the same, and my opinion is often that it needs three trains, as there is often a delay between train dispatch and unload. FOF and Vortex are the same. If it was just used to stop the trains when needed, fine. That's an understandable issue. Now who's splitting hairs over a simple term. I just go with how they are used, thank you. By the way, most of the pain referred to in the above post comes from the lack of padding in the lap bars and seats. That's hardly a reason to dull down a ride. People generally have a good idea of what they are getting into when they get on a coaster. The beauty of an amusement park is that those who aren't up to the big coasters will be able to appreciate the smaller, family coasters, ground rides, shows, food, shops, etc. Dulling down the ride for the grannies that might get on is hardly a valid point. I've never heard someone come back from a coaster ride and say "that was too fast, they need to slow it down." The grannies can ride the smaller coasters if they are not up to the big ones. Now, I say that, however I've seen quite a number of grannies willing to ride even SOB, even as rough as he sometimes gets in the first half the ride.(PS. Thanks for not trimming the first half.) It's amazing how gutsy some older people can be. And another point I keep wanting to bring up and forget. When the first riders on The Beast, aka "the test dummies," decided for whatever reason that it needed trims, The Beast was the tallest and fastest. They weren't used to those kinds of forces and didn't know what to expect. They might have felt like it needed trims, when in this day and age, you can easily realize they are no big deal. Example, you cannot expect me to believe that if Millennium drops 300 feet at an 80 degree angle untrimmed (for now) that The Beast can't drop roughly a third of that at a 45. Don't like the steel example, well let's look at wood, how about SOB's drop that's (loosly) twice the size and at a 60. Don't even use roughness, as he doesn't get rough till the rose bowl. I don't buy it! Not the force issue. I'll buy the "we don't want to spend the money on maintenance" argument, but not force.

Well considering it came from you, what else to you expect? How do you know that a park is killing a ride with a trim? What experiences do you have with the subject? Or are you just trying to give off second hand information and pass it off as your own again? You may want to clarify that. In your opinion, YOU don't have to go to other parks to see that KI and CP use trims more than others. But in reality, they use trims just like everyone else. You just have not been to enough parks to figure that out. So if you discover something in the future, I'll be the first to know. Well thanks, I appreciate that. But what I don't understand is the "I won't change my mind" part. Does that mean you are so closed minded that once you finally do get to other parks not associated with CF, you still won't change your mind on trims or that CF is the only chain that over uses trims? Since you have already admitted that CF has not added any trims to KI's coasters since the Paramount regime, and, given your limited experience with other parks, I am surprised that you have not figured out that if the two biggest parks under different ownership use trims, other parks probably use them as well. 1. Considering that it is you...that! 2. Let me give you a few examples...Gemini, reduced to a crawl around the third turnaround and again before the helix, which takes the fun and airtime out of the last return trip and all the fun out of the helix. Without = a blast. Magnum with trim = okay, Magnum without = a blast. Mean Streak with trims = smooth, but lacking any kind of coaster like intensity except in a few spots, without some of the trims = rough, but it has some speed to help it out. Maverick with trim--silly, Maverick w/o trim--second half the ride is insane. Voyage with trim = insane, without = insane gone insane. Mantis w/ trim = whiplash on downhill section and slower ride, Mantis w/o trim--no whiplash on downhill section, but bad example because I'm partial to the hang time at the top of the loop. Flight of Fear = more fun with extra launch speed and no trim brake. Racer = much more airtime and much more fun without trim. Beastie = more fun without trim, and having one is just dumb. I can go on, you asked! 3. Doubtful. I understand that there are other parks that use trims, and quite a number, and I understand the need for them on a very rare occasion. While Cedar Fair hasn't added any to KI's coasters, I remind you that they have to their own, and I have yet to find other parks (even among the CF chain) that have over half of the coasters trimmed. Let's explore: Firehawk: non-trimmed Flight of Fear: Trimmed Vortex: Trimmed Racer: Trimmed Backlot Stunt Coaster: Trimmed at least in part Beast: Trimmed Reptar: Non-trimmed, but I'm surprized. Beastie: Trimmed Little Bills Giggle Coaster: Non trimmed, and that would be rather hard. Flight Deck: Non-trimmed somehow. Son of Beast: Trimmed Invertigo: Trimmed (or at least the mechanism is there) That's over half of the coasters trimmed. 4. I won't change my mind means I will not change my mind about hating trim brakes and thinking that many of them need to dissolve in a puddle of acid. Sorry, it was a little unclear the way I said it. If I find that there is a new trim brake capital of the world other than KI, I'll change that part of my mind and give the other park the trophy. At the moment, CP is working on it.

Actually it took about 5 minutes to find out you really have no basis of comparison for any opinion on trims. Everyone wants a coaster to go faster and have airtime, but it is the person who understands why a park will make a decision to have trims that is the true enthusiast. They know that the ride is there for everyone's enjoyment, not just their own enjoyment. And if you think I'm an arrogant jerk, given your limited view on things, I'll take that as being a really good guy. Thanks for the compliment! Taking a direct insult as a compliment sounds right up your alley. One should point out that I really don't give a flying radiator hose why a park kills a ride with a trim brake. I'm a coaster enthusiast not a business enthusiast like yourself. I'm just simply pointing out that the rest of us who are true coaster enthusiasts would be happier if a coaster was allowed to live. You don't have to go to 500 parks to see that Kings Island and Cedar Point use trims more than the other said parks. If I discover something to the contrary in the future, you'll be the first to know. I won't change my mind.

- Backlots trim brake has been there since day one. So now you know. - I'd rather take advice from a goat - Just a strongly educated guess here, but I honestly think Cedar Fair doesn't give a rats behind what you, or any other enthusiast thinks about the trim brakes on The Beast. - You think wrong. 1. Okay. 2. That's your problem, not mine. 3. That's EXACTLY the problem, glad you highlighted it. 4. Prove it! -- Those parks equal to a rather small amount of parks 1. I've added quite a number of parks since then. 2. Working on that! 3. I've seen coasters that need trims, but very, VERY rarely, and certainly not as many as KI uses. 4. You have way too much time on your hands if you're going to look up someone else's park logs, coaster ranks, etc. just so you can be an arrogant jerk consistent with what I have seen on this forum. And...most importantly, that's only the steel coasters. Try looking for all of them.

So you really have no idea about what kind of ride a trimless Beast will give. But you feel the need to question why the trims are there, and on top of that criticize a company and question their maintenance procedures(which only happens to be one of many reasons trims are necessary)? Based on second hand information? You need to seriously explore other parks than the 20 you have been to and form your own opinion. Not an opinion based upon some else's ideals. Never having a trimless ride, and then telling a company on how their coaster should operate is not only arrogant presumption, it is immature. However, being as the faster The Beast runs, the better the ride is, one can only imagine the kinds of rides The Beast would give if given the opportunity. Talk to anyone other than the also arrogant members of this trim brake forum....I mean coaster forum, and they will tell you the same thing. I've also noticed I'm not the only member of this forum that feels this way about the trims. In case you haven't noticed, there are MANY! Plus, I HAVE my own opinion. The only thing that I lack is being able to ride The Beast completely trimless to tell what the ride is supposed to be like. Again, the faster it moves, the better the ride always is to me. And as I already said, get rid of the one, and I'll gladly shut up. Also, speaking of being presumptuous, how would you possibly have a clue how many parks I've been to or how many coasters I have ridden to possibly know what kind of forces I have experienced or what my preferences are????? Talk about being arrogant. As for immature, so is turning everything into a full scale debate, not that I'm doing anything to curb that, but you're not innocent yourself.

Yes the trim on Red Racer is overkilled at the moment. (Even though it has brand new track.) The one on both sides need to go, but I'm not getting into that argument again. True enough, Cedar Fair did not add brakes to any of KI's coasters (except perhaps the new one on Backlot Stunt Coaster (but I will ADMIT I'm not sure when it was added right after the "splashdown" moment.) However, they HAD to add the ones to Magnum, Mean Streak, Maverick, Cedar Creek Mine Ride (when used), Mantis, Raptor, and especially the ridiculous ones on Gemini, so they obviously share KI's philosophy of trimming rides to death as a substitute for good maintenance. The former block brake of The Beast were skid brakes. You can't have it both ways. Either they can control the brakes or they can't. If they would have had to manually adjust the counterweights, it would not have been able to stop a train because it wouldn't have been able to adjust itself. Speaking of being able to have a trimless ride, who would remember exact dates and times. I personally have read about them, but unfortunately never got to experience them. If you were asking me, I would tell you to forward your question to Mr. Don Flint of KIExtreme.com! He'll set you straight. Now, for my all-important message directly to Cedar Fair. I honestly think the vast majority if not all of the enthusiast that I constantly hear sharing my complaint of the brakes on The Beast would shut up if the brake at the top of the second hill was completely removed. Removing one brake would not make a great deal of difference maintenance wise I wouldn't think, and that would allow The Beast to have the airhill that it so desperately craves, and HAS, and that would make the pacing of the rest of the ride slightly faster, and therefore satisfy our craving for intensity. We would all shut up, I believe, if just that one brake was gone.

You might try it again. Not that it's smooth by any means, but it is much smoother now than when it opened. (Especially since they have the brake set to almost stop at the mid-course.) I have enjoyed my rides on Sonny this year and last.