SonofBaconator

Because it’s easier to “silence” a singular person. I don’t really see news reporters coming after the park and asking things that typical fans ask. I’m sure if a news agency reached out to the park, the park would be inclined to make a statement, but that comes at a cost – that news agency might not be invited back to ride announcements or different media day events – at least that’s how I view it.

I agree with you - it feels like amusement parks are moving away from storytelling and spokespeople, and are just posting things like “new ride open, buy your season pass.” The thing is, when a record-breaking coaster or a nostalgic attraction opens, the value is already there. I already want to ride it because of what it is. But when the messaging is just “buy your pass”, it shows where the priorities are - the transaction instead of the experience. For example: “Orion is open, buy your pass now” vs. “Come ride the record-breaking Orion at Kings Island, with a 300-foot drop, over a mile of track, and speeds over 90 mph- you won’t want to miss it! Secure your season pass today at VisitKingsIsland.com.” Both are basically sales pitches, but one tells a story that builds excitement. I know I need a ticket to enter the park - that’s obvious. Storytelling, though, makes me feel like the park is earning my business rather than just demanding it. In the long run, that’s better for customer retention than simply shouting “buy, buy, buy.” I think a lot of companies are just so fast to sell that they have honestly forgotten what they’re selling: entertainment…stories…memories…

Unfortunately, I think this goes deeper than Six Flags…there hasn’t really been much communication from the park in the past on certain items. Years ago with the practice of communication at amusement parks, almost each park had spokesperson where he/she was pretty much the face of the park to the general public. They were the ones that news reporters always talk to whenever there was a new announcement, incident, etc. Heck, a current member on this site could vouch for that much… With everything leading more corporate, I think that that personal touch goes away-which I don’t necessarily agree with. Most companies are more worried about getting information sent out via social media through targeted posts as opposed to literally just having somebody step behind a camera and say the same thing. It takes away the authenticity of things. I know that everybody is glued to their screens and wants information tweeted out as soon as possible, but I think there is still something to be said for verbal communication. It’s a different world out there. As somebody who went to college and studied communication, marketing, and or at a time when social media was still just as big of a part of our everyday lives as it is now, I think that a lot of corporations overlook the value of constant communication- it’s all about getting out content nowadays.

I’ve always assumed this was the endgame when the merger happened, no matter who was in charge. Factually, the Six Flags name was kept for its national recognition and licensing power, while Cedar Fair took the reins on operations - not sure if this is still factually accurate considering current events. Cedar Fair’s parks are mostly in mid-sized regional markets (Sandusky, Cincinnati, Richmond, Kansas City, etc.), while Six Flags gives them anchors in massive metros like New York, LA, Chicago, and Dallas. That combination wasn’t an accident. What we already know for sure is that not every park is safe. Six Flags America is closing after 2025, and California’s Great America is set to close after 2027. Analysts are openly saying the chain might have to sell off 10-12 more parks to cut debt. If a property doesn’t have strategic value - either because of location, attendance, or land value - it’s a target to be sold or shut down. That said, I don’t think this means the chain is going to liquidate every park it wants to part with. Some parks could easily be sold to private equity or to another operator. What’s happening with Six Flags America and California’s Great America won’t necessarily be the standard. If a company like Hershend, SeaWorld/Busch Gardens, or another chain is willing to pony up the cash for a park that doesn’t fit Six Flags’ long-term strategy, I don’t see Six Flags ignoring that offer. My take: I can’t break this down mathematically, but it makes sense that the chain might actually generate more revenue long-term by diverting some of their assets. Fewer parks means they can funnel more capital and attention back into the flagships - the ones pulling 2-3 million+ visitors a year. If I were running it, I’d rather have a leaner chain of higher-quality, higher-attendance parks than a bloated portfolio where a bunch of properties don’t move the needle. It’s the same logic you see with Disney, Universal, or even Busch Gardens/SeaWorld - they don’t need dozens of properties spread across the country to dominate. Sometimes less really is more.

All of which very well could be true-I’m not entirely sure if there’s anything left in there. That building has been around for nearly 25 years and has housed three (now 4) different themes.

I’m not sure how accurate that comment is considering that it became The Crypt in 2008 up until it’s final season in 2011. Cedar Fair had to remove anything related to Paramount.

I’m sure this is a new entrance- but I’m confused as to why not use the current entrance for the building as opposed building a new one- are they anticipating it’s going to be a super long line?

Whenever I ride The Racer and glance to my left, I still picture Firehawk sitting alongside Flight of Fear. Today that area is home to Orion, a giga coaster that undeniably represents progress for the park. Yet Firehawk continues to stand out in my memory, perhaps even more than Vortex, because of the unusual role it played in Kings Island’s coaster lineup. When it opened in 2007, Firehawk was not a brand-new, custom-built attraction like most of Kings Island’s major coasters. It was a relocation from Geauga Lake, where it had operated as X-Flight. Its arrival came at a pivotal moment: Cedar Fair had just acquired Kings Island from Paramount, and Firehawk provided a fresh experience that helped smooth the park’s transition into a new era. In a park known for groundbreaking originals like The Beast, Vortex, Son of Beast, Diamondback, and Orion, Firehawk often felt like the “adopted child.” It wasn’t designed for Kings Island, and its Flying Dutchman model was notorious for capacity issues. Yet it offered something the park lacked at the time - a flying coaster that flipped riders onto their stomachs and sent them soaring headfirst through drops, rolls, and dives. This gave Kings Island a unique draw in the late 2000s and positioned the park competitively within the region. Firehawk also served a practical role. It bought Cedar Fair time to prepare for Diamondback in 2009, which became the company’s first major new build at the park. Even after Diamondback’s debut, Firehawk maintained popularity until its removal in 2018, showing that its appeal endured beyond its initial novelty. The larger question is whether Firehawk deserves to be remembered in the same light as other departed Kings Island coasters such as Vortex, King Cobra, Screamin’ Demon, or Son of Beast. Those rides, for better or worse, were all original to the park and helped define its identity. Firehawk, by contrast, was inherited - but it still managed to leave a lasting impression. So how should Firehawk be viewed in the park’s history? Was it merely a stopgap, a secondhand addition that served its purpose, or did it truly earn a place in Kings Island’s coaster legacy alongside the originals? I’m curious how others rank Firehawk among the park’s lost attractions and whether its impact was greater than its relocated status might suggest.

I asked AI to break it down mathematically and this is what I was told: ”When we estimate the capacity of a roller coaster’s queue, we’re really connecting a few pieces together — some we know, and some we have to assume. The first piece is the ride’s theoretical throughput, which we’ll call RPH (riders per hour). That’s usually given by the ride manufacturer or operations team. Next, we look at the time it takes to walk through the entire queue when every switchback is open, which we’ll call QWT. We don’t actually know the total path length of the queue, but we can figure it out by multiplying QWT by an assumed average walking speed, W. That gives us the queue length, QL = W × QWT. From there, we don’t really know how much space each person will take while standing in line, so we use an estimated spacing value, S, which might be around three feet per guest in a tightly packed switchback. Dividing the total queue length by that spacing gives us the maximum number of people the queue can hold, Qcap = QL ÷ S. Finally, to translate that into a wait time, we divide that capacity by the ride’s throughput and multiply by 60 to put it into minutes: Qtime = (Qcap ÷ RPH) × 60. The parts we don’t know exactly — the true walking speed and the exact spacing per person — are assumptions we have to make, but they let us model the queue’s capacity in a reasonable way.”

I don’t think Xcelerator is going to last forever. With Six Flags already taking down the world’s tallest hydraulic launch coaster in New Jersey, it seems like the writing’s on the wall for Intamin’s hydraulic coasters in general. They’re maintenance-heavy, parts are harder to come by, and Xcelerator was the prototype. If/when Knott’s replaces it, there are some interesting directions they could go. In theory they could go the TT2 route if they wanted to preserve the ride- and add some length and duration with a swing launch. If they were looking to completely demo and rebuild- an S&S air launch could deliver the same burst of speed with far less downtime. Or, Knott’s could even be a test site for something like the S&S Axis coaster, which would give them a real marketing hook. With all this said, I can’t help but wonder if Siren’s Curse would’ve been a better fit for Knott’s than Cedar Point. I know Cedar Point will always get the massive record-breakers, but Siren’s Curse might have made a bigger impact at Knott’s. I think it would have felt different enough from HangTime to stand on its own.

Which honestly gives me hope that Cedar Fair will eventually move away from relying on external IPs in their parks. Cedar Fair’s own history shows why. I was never a fan of the “Intimidator” coasters, because those names won’t last forever. Even on a broader scale when they acquired the Paramount parks in 2006, they had to strip away most of the branding. Even small details like the Mini Cooper theming on Backlot Stunt Coaster had to go. It showed how fragile licensing can be, and how quickly a park’s identity can get lost. That said, IP has its place. In kids’ areas it works, and in seasonal haunted attractions it’s fine too. Haunt mazes and indoor overlays are temporary by nature, so swapping one IP for another is like changing a storefront sign. A Thriftway can become a Kroger overnight, and no one thinks twice about it. Permanent thrill rides, on the other hand, need long-term staying power. Not to be overly critical of Six Flags, but their decades-long reliance on superhero branding has always felt like a shortcut. With so many different versions of characters across movies, TV, and comics, it’s tough to keep the branding consistent. Batman and Superman are universally known, but characters like Green Lantern, The Flash, or Cyborg don’t have the same reach. As a comic book fan, I appreciate them, but it still feels like a narrow, dated strategy rather than something timeless and memorable.

In my opinion, Action Zone should have been completely overhauled either with or shortly after the debut of Banshee. When the record-breaking invert opened in 2014, the park did invest in some welcome changes: the new seating plaza where the water tower once stood, the revival of The Bat, the repaint of Delirium, and even the back patio of Festhaus that allowed guests to watch the action. But much of the area remained untouched. Drop Tower, Xtreme Skyflyer, and Congo Falls stayed exactly the same, with only Invertigo receiving a repaint in 2012. The result was an area that looked half-new and half-forgotten. What always stood out to me was how split Action Zone felt after Banshee’s arrival. One side had modern touches - Banshee dominating the skyline, The Bat tying in nostalgia, and an energized central plaza. The other side was the “old” Action Zone, with Invertigo, Drop Tower, and Congo Falls still carrying their early-2000s extreme-thrills aesthetic. It was almost like two lands stitched together, each telling a different story. Now, with the merger in play, the uncertainty around Action Zone is even greater. Banshee needs a repaint, Skyflyer is gone, Congo Falls feels out of place, and Invertigo seems like it’s living on borrowed time. The Bat still runs well, but its future is uncertain. Then there’s the empty Son of Beast station - once reused for Wolfpack during Haunt - now cleared out and sitting vacant, a reminder of unfinished potential. This is why I’d like to see Action Zone addressed before The Vortex plot. Back in the Paramount era, the park felt unbalanced - Top Gun, Son of Beast, King Cobra, and Drop Tower were all piled into one corner. Today, the lineup is more evenly distributed: Orion anchors Area 72/Coney Mall. Rivertown has Diamondback, Mystic Timbers, and The Beast, and other coasters are scattered more thoughtfully throughout. But Action Zone, which was never part of the original master plan, has gone through so many transformations - from wild animal habitat, to Adventure Village, to Paramount’s extreme-thrills hub, and now to its current patchwork state - that it badly needs a clear, consistent identity moving forward. That lack of focus also makes the area vulnerable. With DC Comics IP so readily available, it would be easy to rebrand the entire section overnight. Drop Tower could become Lex Luthor: Drop of Doom. The Bat could be renamed Batman: The Ride. Banshee could turn into Superman: The Ride. From a marketing perspective, it’s effortless, but it would strip the park of originality. IP can work at Disney or Universal where it’s deeply integrated, but in regional parks it often feels like a shortcut. There is reason for hope, though. Kings Island’s decision to bring back Phantom Theater in place of Boo Blasters shows the chain is willing to lean into creativity and history instead of outside brands. I truly hope I’m wrong about the DC angle, because what Action Zone needs isn’t a quick rebrand - it just needs to be completed.

I feel like 4D Freespin will go where Skyflyer was and will act as an Invertigo “replacement.”

They used to do this back in the day after something was announced. If any of you recall, Banshee had a bunch of its concept art along the fence after the ride was announced in 2013. I cannot speak for post announcement stuff like Mystic Timbers and Orion because I don’t remember- but I do I remember Adventure Port had stuff as well. The park is stepping up their game when it comes to advertising future attractions in general. I was at the park recently and there’s a huge sign for their Dragon’s Layer (or whatever it’s called) Haunt where Blackout once was. It gives you a sense that they are just as excited about what’s to come as the fans are- which reminds me of what they used to do back in the early Cedar Fair days with their additions. Also, I’m sure there’s a marketing strategy behind it too- people are more willing to check out a coming attraction if they have a physical advertisement of it in the park.

Is there an official capacity number out there for the total capacity for full coaster ques at KI? For example, how many people can Diamondback’s que hold with all the switchbacks open? The Beast? Mystic? I feel like that number is out there somewhere, or maybe former ride ops know, so I’m curious to find it out!

it does say that they will be using animatronics so that will appeal to a lot of of the original fans as well as those who get excited over animation-there aren’t really a lot of animatronics in the Midwest for people to experience anymore and that’s more than likely because of the times, but still it’s nice to see that they are being re-implemented- albeit on a smaller scale. Something I would like to see return is some of the practical effects like the following busts- the ones that they brought back and put in the lobby of Phantom theater: encore- the effect literally requires no effort since it’s all visual manipulation.

ever since Knotts Berry Farm brought back Berry tales I had thought that Kings Island would get something like this. It’s a good way to still keep the shooting aspect while removing the bland theming, as well as cashing in on nostalgia. I think something that’s more important to know is that the Phantom theater IP is officially back! Sure there has been some merchandise out prior and we did have the two seasons of the show in the KI Theater- but after Paramount closed the ride in the early 2000s up until really the 2022 season of Cedar Fair ownership, guests were only ever exposed to Phantom Theater during Fearfest/Haunt when the props were displayed. It’s still baffles my mind that the fresh, original, IP just sat unused for 20 years. I know there are people who are upset that it’s not a complete return to what the park was given in the 90s, but with all things considered I say this is a fair compromise.

From the release: “Along the way, the enchanted opera boxes travel through fully built dimensional scenes, including backstage areas, haunted hallways, dressing rooms and a fiery boiler room as they meet other performers who are ready to take the stage. From animatronic forms of Houdelini and The Great Garbanzo to Hilda Bovine and Lionel Burymore, the Phantom Theater’s beloved crew returns, getting caught in the chaos while guests simultaneously search for the ghost notes. New surprises await guests around every corner, including the introduction of Arpeggio, Maestro’s furry feline friend. In total, 26 interactive scenes feature added multi-sensory effects like wind and sound, hidden Easter eggs throughout and a grand on-stage musical finale with all cast members. Manufactured by Sally Dark Rides, the leader in indoor family dark ride experiences, Phantom Theater: Opening Nightmare is a true nod to the original that made its home at Kings Island from 1992 – 2002.”

I feel like CP and KI’s fortunes are tied- if Six Flags keeps CP but sells KI- they’re basically reigniting the competition both parks had with one another prior to the Paramount parks acquisition.

This is not to spur off of current events with the news of boo blasters, and if @IndyGuy4KI wishes to merge this with an existing thread elsewhere, I’m all for it. What I’d like to discuss are some of the biggest missed opportunities with the original Phantom Theater. Specifically, I’m thinking about technologies and practices from the early 1990s that were available but not fully utilized. For me, the biggest one was the limited use of practical effects in favor of a heavy reliance on animatronics. If you look at Disney’s Haunted Mansion, most of the early build-up relies on illusions like following busts, changing portraits, and atmospheric tricks. You don’t really encounter many animatronics until the ballroom and graveyard scenes, which makes those figures feel all the more impactful. Phantom Theater had some of these touches - like the busts in the queue and the portraits where phantoms materialized - but overall leaned much more heavily on animatronics. I suspect this was intentional, giving the ride a flashier personality compared to Haunted Mansion’s slow-burn approach. It’s also possible Rick Bastrup and his team went this route because Phantom Theater was smaller in scale, so packing in more character encounters helped it feel bigger… Still, the trade-off was that the upkeep on the figures didn’t age well, and some timeless illusions that might have held up better were left out. That said, this isn’t meant as a knock on Rick or his vision. Phantom Theater is still one of my favorite defunct rides at Kings Island, and it had its own charm. I just think a better balance of practical effects and animatronics might have made it even stronger. What do you think? What were some of the biggest missed opportunities with the original ride?

This might be a deep cut but IIRC the animatronics for Phantom Theater were wrapped up and placed in The Crypt building for Cavern of Terror so it could be an easter egg for the hardcore fans.

2009 was a significant year for a lot of reasons- We just got Diamondback, Firehawk was in its second season, we still had SOB as well as Nick Universe and Scooby Doo. A year later, SOB was SBNO, Nick left in favor of Planet Snoopy, and Scooby Doo was replaced with Boo Blasters. As someone who wasn’t old enough to really grasp early CF KI was- I want to ask: What was 2009 like?

Piggybacking off of @TOPGUN1993’s post about Swoop, it got me thinking of all the original IP that was made for coasters and attractions across the industry that were never utilized. I actually liked the name “Splinter Cat”

It’s kinda ironic, this ride was never built with its original identity: Built to be named “Swoop” but was rebranded as Top Gun before making its public debut Went from Top Gun to “Flight Deck” to detach from the Paramount branding Went from “Flight Deck” to “The Bat” taking advantage of Banshee’s debut and paying homage to the original suspended coaster Only time will tell if we see any DC tie in of the Caped Crusader variety Talk about an identity crisis