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New ride for 2008?


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Ok, not trying to be arguementative, but now I'm REALLY confused.

You said that this is not a SF vs. CF thing nor do you believe that CF is in bad shape, but now you are bringing up the main points of what SF has done wrong as well as compare them to what CF has done.

And since you did bring it up...

When SF expanded to other parks, they were not it great financial shape to begin with, CF was in good shape.

Sure $1.24 billion seems like a lot of money to us, but none of us know without a doubt if they overpaid or not. In addition, lenders would have never of given CF money if the selling price did not actually compare with what the PP land and assets were valued at. SF never purchased their parks the way CF did.

Sure CF has installed thrilling rides, but no where near the pace that SF had done.

- One SF park opened a new coaster every year (with the exception of 2001) from 1999 to 2003. Or a total of 8 coasters from 1996 to present

- One SF park opened 4 coasters in 2000 and added another in 2001.

- One SF park opened 5 coasters from 1996 to present

- One SF park opened 8 coasters from 1996 to present, with another coming in 2008 and another that opened during that time and is currently closed

- CP has opened 6 coasters from 1996 to present.

When it comes down to adding rides, Dick Kinzel has made the statement numerous times that CF does not purchase the ride, but the individual park purchases the rides. I am assuming that SF has not done the same.

Comparing the uptime (maintenance) between the two chains was well defined in Duane's (RCDB) comment about SFMM reliquishing the coaster crown. CF has done what is necessary to keep the ride operating. TTD and SoB are excellent examples. The four letters: SBNO is as famous as SFMM. And as far as general maintenance, when was the last time KI ever looked as good as it did in 2007?

And as far as compensating people: anytime there is a major purchase, there are going to be employees that do not like the new owners, and the best excuse for leaving is making comments about insufficient pay. Perhaps CF expected more from their managment than Paramount did and in return those that were with Paramount expected a higher salary. But on the other hand, perhaps Paramount did not have their management do enough.

If CF was losing management at their other parks, not just those that had Paramount ties, I could agree with you.

CF may not believe that some in middle managment are necessary. It has not hurt their other non-Paramount parks.

Let's scream danger when an article comes out about CF cutting back the way SF has done. Until then it is just second guessing and adding hindsight to every decision CF makes.

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Conference call time is coming. Listen carefully before you invest or if you have already invested.

These are dangerous times for all seasonal parks.

And as I said before, it took years of bungling to get Six Flags where it was when Messrs Snyder and Shapiro took over. The Paramount Parks acquisition by Cedar Fair was a very uncharacteristic move for what had been an extremely conservative company that was very well managed. There are signs the management of the company is greatly changing its attitudes, ways of doing business and risk tolerance.

Stay tuned. Each investor must make his or her own choice. And past performance is not necessarily an indicator of future performance. There can be no assurance, etc., etc.

As for second guessing, that is what investors must and do do. There is a reason both these companies' financial units have greatly declined in value, even compared to the market as a whole, over the last 18 months in particular. Standard and Poors rating FUN as a strong sell is not an indicator of financial confidence in current management and/or prospects. And NO ONE is rating Six Flags as a strong buy. No one at all.

As for the real estate value being a prime collateral asset...note that ALL real estate values virtually throughout the country are falling. Financing is becoming more and more difficult. There is such a strong possibility of at least a recession that both parties and the President seem in uniform agreement that economic stimulus is necessary. Perhaps nearly $150 billion in economic stimulus. These are not the times that most people rush out to spend discretionary dollars on theme park entertainment. Especially if they have to spend $3.50 a gallon, or more, on gasoline to get there.

Again, both companies face substantial challenges in the years ahead.

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Conference call time is coming. Listen carefully before you invest or if you have already invested.

These are dangerous times for all seasonal parks.


But there is a tremendous difference between investing in CF and comparing CF to what SF has done.

And as of right now, CF is nowhere near the condition SF is in.

CF is 18 months into the PP aquisition, and so far they have done rather well.

Sure they are going to stub their toe, but nobody is perfect.

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^ I agree Tigger. This is not the only message board where I hear enthusiasts comparing CF to SF, and I think CF seems to have had a plan in mind whiles SF surely didn't look like they had any plan at all. What SF was counting on was that coaster installation after coaster installation was the magic cure all for their attendance. Never mind the poor customer service, the rides that stood SBNO for years, and the general uncleanliness of the parks. The two chains really don't mirror each other in the least, as far as I'm concerned. CF still needs to improve their customer servie and get a hold of their outrageous food prices. So, they are not perfect, but it appears that they strive for perfection when SF strives for mediocrity.

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[...]and the general uncleanliness of the parks. The two chains really don't mirror each other in the least, as far as I'm concerned. CF[, while]not perfect,[...]appears that they strive for perfection[,]when SF strives for mediocrity.

-note- I'm not exactly sure if this is the correct way to add extra words/punctuation in an attempt to paraphrase quotes; I just wanted to highlight and reword a part of your post. This was, by no way, a means to correct punctuation and/or grammar, as I had no idea how to do it right, and I've probably made a few mistakes of my own. -/note-


I just wanted to add the fact that Cedar Point, within the past few years, isn't necessarily the tidiest amusement park around, compared to Kings Island or SFGA, for that matter.

No, this isn't a 'I'm just defending my home park' comment, it's truthfully intact. CP has been a mess almost every time I've been up there. Even old work buddies from KI can attest to this. Especially a former manager of mine whose infamous picture of him standing next to an overflowing Cedar Point trash can is hanging up in the Rides Office. Or at least, I think it still is.

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