Second Turnstile On Beast

[Hank]

I have never received a straight answer as to why there is a second turnstile on Beast. Is it really necessary? Is it just there as a MCBR? Maybe it's there for people who don't want to experience the first drop? (just being silly) And why does the train have to slow down there? I'd like some answers and maybe an opinion or two as to why and if that second turnstile is there.

[maverick2007]

Turnstile? Do you mean brake?

[The Interpreter]

Or lift hill?

[CedarPointer]

You're right. I can see the purpose of the first and third ones, but not the second one.

[maverick2007]

^That actually made me laugh out loud! Hilarious!

[Braves0511]

It just made me want to ride it even more...

[CedarPointer]

It kind of reminds me of collecting powerups in Mario Kart, lol.

[kjkjkj]

Whenever I hear someone say turnstile I either think of the ones like in the picture Cedar Pointer posted, or the things in the queue line (I think the correct term for them is switchback, but we always call them turnstiles) But I have never heard someone talk about them being on an actual ride lol

[coaster_junky]

hank, are you refering to the piece of switch track?

if so, it's there to place the trains in the storage shed, if not, i'm not sure what you're talking about.

[Beast79]

hank, are you refering to the piece of switch track?

if so, it's there to place the trains in the storage shed, if not, i'm not sure what you're talking about.

Thats what I was thinking too...

[rotag]

maybe he's talkin bout the break shed before you go thru the concrete tunnels

EDIT: i cant find a pic of it but im pretty sure that is what he's talkin about.

[Hank]

I guess I sort of made an error in my description of turnstile. What I meant was the brake run after the first hill and drop, second hill & right turn. It looks like a turnstile to me. Now, review my questions in my original post.

[Beast79]

It's a trim to slow the train to prevent it from damaging the track.

[CedarPointer]

It's a trim to slow the train to prevent it from damaging the track the riders from enjoying the attraction.

Fixed! (sorry, old habits die hard. I'm kidding!)

[Dvo]

^lol. very true.

[Beast1979]

I understand the idea of reduced maintenance, but is it really necessary to have 3 sets of trims in a 20 second period? I think the second trim can be done without. It's still one of the best rides at KI, regardless.

[/rant]

[AZ Kinda Guy]

I understand the idea of reduced maintenance, but is it really necessary to have 3 sets of trims in a 20 second period? I think the second trim can be done without. It's still one of the best rides at KI, regardless.

[/rant]

Do you want the ride there or not? The trims are there to prevent the ride form tearing itself apart.

[Hank]

The trims in the "turnstile"/brake run have been there since day one, as were trims going down the lift hill. So, this still doesn't answer my questions.

[SOB_TOM]

When The Beast was originally built, it was built to allow up to 6 (or 7, I forget now) trains at a time. The lift hill had the trim brake on it because the speed in which the train entered the first turn was ripping the track apart, and the brake shed was there to stop a train when the next block was occupied. The reason it is still used today is the same reason that the trims on the lift hill were initially installed: Because of the profile of the track and supports, coupled with the original speed that the train entered the turn, brakes were needed. As for why it is so heavily braked now, I have no clue, but I suspect it is a combination of wanting to limit the force on that turn, and in turn, allow for a longer running ride, and also because of the forces that were on the ride originally.

As for the question that is about to ask, here is the list of the original blocks (section of track that only one train can enter at a time:)

Station to top of lift 1

Top of lift 1 to brake shed

Brake shed to bottom of lift 2

Bottom of lift 2 to midpoint of lift 2

Midpoint of lift to to top of lift 2

Top of lift 2 to final brake 1

Final brake 1 to final brake 2

Final brake 2 to station.

I hope that answered your question.

[PhantomTheater]

The brake run you are talking about was originally set up to be a block brake. When it was built, The Beast utilized sked brakes, which took a long distance and need to be kept dry, thus the long shed. This was done so The Beast could run four trains at one time. Unfortunately, the block was too short to run 4 trains practically,and the fourth train was removed. The end result was one long trim brake.

EDIT: SOB_Tom beat me to it, I type too slowly.

[SOB_TOM]

For all intensive purposes, yes, only 4 could have been ran at a time due to the length of the brakes. However, as stated before, it was originally designed for 6-7 trains. Designers have been doing this for awhile now, for example, SOB can technically run 4 trains, however because of timing issues, only 3 were ran.

[The Interpreter]

And not just wood either, Flight of Fear was designed to run four trains...but only three workable trains exist in the park.

Son of Beast, to my knowledge, never ran three trains while open to the public...and it ran only one for months after it opened...

[SOB_TOM]

That was my mistake. I don't know why I put 3 on SOB....

Also, Vortex blocking scheme has room for 4-5, but only runs 3. To my knowledge, Flight Deck is the only adult coaster in the park (minus Invertigo,)that runs with its maximum number of trains for the blocking scheme, thus why the lift slows down to allow the second block to clear. It comes down to timing inside the station really, and because you cannot time every train down to the second it will consistently leave, blocks must be left open in the circuit.

[DeLorean Rider]

When The Beast was originally built, it was built to allow up to 6 (or 7, I forget now) trains at a time. The lift hill had the trim brake on it because the speed in which the train entered the first turn was ripping the track apart, and the brake shed was there to stop a train when the next block was occupied. The reason it is still used today is the same reason that the trims on the lift hill were initially installed: Because of the profile of the track and supports, coupled with the original speed that the train entered the turn, brakes were needed. As for why it is so heavily braked now, I have no clue, but I suspect it is a combination of wanting to limit the force on that turn, and in turn, allow for a longer running ride, and also because of the forces that were on the ride originally.

As for the question that is about to ask, here is the list of the original blocks (section of track that only one train can enter at a time:)

Station to top of lift 1

Top of lift 1 to brake shed

Brake shed to bottom of lift 2

Bottom of lift 2 to midpoint of lift 2

Midpoint of lift to to top of lift 2

Top of lift 2 to final brake 1

Final brake 1 to final brake 2

Final brake 2 to station.

I hope that answered your question.

You've got an extra block in there as far as the computer is concerned and as far as stopping is concerned you have 2 extra.

You have "Top of Lift 1 to brake shed" then "Brake shed to bottom of lift 2." If you're saying "Top of Lift 1 to brake shed" is a block then I'm assuming you're saying the ride would have the potential to stop in the brake shed. That being the case, there is no where to stop between the end of the brake shed and the beginning of lift 2. In addition, though the computer recoginzes the bottom of lift 2 to the middle of lift 2 as a sensor zone and the middle of lift 2 to the top another sensor zone, they are NOT 2 separate zones.

Your legitimate block zones (WITH the brake shed being a potential stopping zone are)

1 The end of the station through and including lift one

2 the top of lift one through and including the brake shed

3 the end of the brake shed through and including lift 2

4 The top of lift 4 through and including the safety brakes

5 The end of the safety brakes through and including the ready brakes

6 The End of the ready brakes through and including the station.

Now in today's world where the brake shed is just a trim brake, you can eliminate block 2; leaving you with 5 full block zones.

1 The end of the station through and including lift one

2 the top of lift one through and including lift 2

3 The top of lift 4 through and including the safety brakes

4 The end of the safety brakes through and including the ready brakes

5 The End of the ready brakes through and including the station.

(Before I get crap; yes, on The Beast the control panel recognizes the first half of lift 2 as a different zone (shown only by the lamp indicators) than the second half. The only reason for this is that the first lamp lights when the train has crested the first lift; however that means that the light will stay on until the train crests lift 2 so you really have no way (via lights) to tell when the train is no longer cruising through the woods and is on lift 2. To fix this, there is another light installed to show when the train is just under halfway up lift 2. (there is also a lamp that blinks briefly when a train is passing through the brake shed). Though all these lamps are on the control panel it does NOT mean that the lower half of lift 2 is a different block from the upper half; NO as always you cannot have more than one train on a lift at a time. (However I will add that here at Space Mountain we can have 3 trains on one lift)

Also there is no way The Beast was ever meant to have 6-7 trains. The mere thought is ridiculous. No Hell any competent person (let alone engineer) can see that even 4 is ridiculous. Sure we could do 4; but the different blocks are so unevenly sized that you would have trains setting up all the time! Lift one already has to slow down to wait for a train to leave lift 2. What is the point?!

Same with Vortex; same with SOB, etc. The only reason why Firehawk is an exception is due to the 2 stations and the unbelievably long load time.

Here at Disney, operations is always asking for more trains on space mountain (even though they already have 13 per side).

THE BOTTOM LINE IS:

UNLESS YOU ARE STARVING LOAD, ADDING TRAINS WILL NOT INCREASE RIDER THROUGHPUT!!!

This is the golden rule. Unless when you're dispatching trains there is no train waiting to enter load, adding extra trains will not increase capacity; it will only increase the amount of time riders sit dormant on a ride.

[The Interpreter]

And Six Flags had ordered the coaster now known as Firehawk with three trains...it wasn't long before only two were ever used...the third being scavenged for parts for the first two...

[Browntggrr]

THE BOTTOM LINE IS:

UNLESS YOU ARE STARVING LOAD, ADDING TRAINS WILL NOT INCREASE RIDER THROUGHPUT!!!

This is the golden rule. Unless when you're dispatching trains there is no train waiting to enter load, adding extra trains will not increase capacity; it will only increase the amount of time riders sit dormant on a ride.

Mantis at CP is an excellent example of this.

Mantis ran 3 trains, but due to slow load/ unload time, always stacked trains.

Now Mantis runs 2 trains, and still has the same throughput.

[KIfan1980]

DeLorean - thanks for the detailed explanation.

I think what you said validates my memory - although it has been proven wrong a couple of times so will ask for some confirmation. Was the brake shed actually used as a block in the past (1980's) allowing a train to leave lift hill 1, when the train ahead was either on it's way too or on lift hill 2?

If so, any idea why this capability was changed - I can imagine things like risk of a train not making it to lift 2 from the brake shed block (cold weather mornings come to mind), additional cost/maintenance of having caliper brakes in the brake shed, and slower load times with the individual ratcheting lap bars and seat belts making it obsolete. It just seems like capacity could be higher (shorter ride duration) without the extremely slow lift hill 1.

[tycoonrebel7188]

The Brake shed was originally used as a block break. For example, if you look at the "Most Famous" picture of The Beast, you can see that the train on lift one is already cresting the lift, while the train on lift 2 is not cresting yet. If for some reason, Lift 2 were to stop and lift 1 were to continue, the train from lift 1 would have stopped in the Brake shed.

And Delorean Rider, your description of Todays blocking system on The Beast is slightly wrong. Yes, for all intensive purposes, there are only 5 block, only because in the computer, blocks 2 and 3 are counted as one. Blocks 2 and 3 run from the top of lift 1 to the top of lift 2. In actuality, according to the Block Lights on the control panel, there are 6 blocks, and all of yours are right Delorean Rider except for number 5 and the omission of block 6. Block 5 is only the Ready Brakes, just outside of the station, and Block 6 is the station.

[DeLorean Rider]

The Brake shed was originally used as a block break. For example, if you look at the "Most Famous" picture of The Beast, you can see that the train on lift one is already cresting the lift, while the train on lift 2 is not cresting yet. If for some reason, Lift 2 were to stop and lift 1 were to continue, the train from lift 1 would have stopped in the Brake shed.

And Delorean Rider, your description of Todays blocking system on The Beast is slightly wrong. Yes, for all intensive purposes, there are only 5 block, only because in the computer, blocks 2 and 3 are counted as one. Blocks 2 and 3 run from the top of lift 1 to the top of lift 2. In actuality, according to the Block Lights on the control panel, there are 6 blocks, and all of yours are right Delorean Rider except for number 5 and the omission of block 6. Block 5 is only the Ready Brakes, just outside of the station, and Block 6 is the station.

I understand that, in fact I believe I mentioned it.

(Before I get crap; yes, on The Beast the control panel recognizes the first half of lift 2 as a different zone (shown only by the lamp indicators) than the second half. The only reason for this is that the first lamp lights when the train has crested the first lift; however that means that the light will stay on until the train crests lift 2 so you really have no way (via lights) to tell when the train is no longer cruising through the woods and is on lift 2. To fix this, there is another light installed to show when the train is just under halfway up lift 2. (there is also a lamp that blinks briefly when a train is passing through the brake shed). Though all these lamps are on the control panel it does NOT mean that the lower half of lift 2 is a different block from the upper half; NO as always you cannot have more than one train on a lift at a time. (However I will add that here at Space Mountain we can have 3 trains on one lift.

Like I said "blocks" are not determined by lights on the control panel, they are controlled by the PLC logic. Lights on the control panel are just that; lights. They simply indicate which proximity sensors on the ride are closed. Yes those same sensors determine whether a block in the logic is occupied but that still doesn't mean you'll ever see lights 2 and 3 on at the same time. Sure we use the word "block" but by any technical standard, a "block" is a zone that can be occupied by one train only at ANY time.

I've certainly spent my fair share of time behind The Beast control panel; both by myself, and training others to be there...

[PREMiERdrum]

And Six Flags had ordered the coaster now known as Firehawk with three trains...it wasn't long before only two were ever used...the third being scavenged for parts for the first two...

I remember seeing XFlight operate with all 3 trains exactly ONCE... and the stacking was terrible.