Old Paramount (Viacom) vs. Cedar Fair Managments at KI

[dr_humor]

At least over here at Cedar Point, I would argue that CF has actually done a great job as of late of "meeting in the middle", as you say.

1) It all started with Top Thrill Dragster, which has a nice theme that has been (mostly) kept up...the lights, the cars (minus the giant wheels that flew off), the sounds...

2) Maverick also has a nice, well-rounded easy to maintain theming all around from the trains to the terrain...an excellent job.

3) Shoot the Rapids has more theming than any ride in the past 20 years.

Now down there at Kings Island, you are also seeing this with Diamondback. Is is "totally immersive" theming? Well no...but it's a hyper-coaster, how much can you do beyond the queue and some nicely themed trains?

Plus they added the night-time light show...all atmosphere...give them about 5 years to add a couple more rides and see if this pattern doesn't continue. Minus the WindSeekers, atmosphere has certainly been considered. That said, our WindSeekers are supposed to have some incredible lighting packages (at least the one at CP is).

[PhantomTheater]

1) It all started with Top Thrill Dragster, which has a nice theme that has been (mostly) kept up...the lights, the cars (minus the giant wheels that flew off), the sounds...

You also forgot the removal of the engine, rear wing, and front wing. To say TTD has a nice theme is stretching it

2) Maverick also has a nice, well-rounded easy to maintain theming all around from the trains to the terrain...an excellent job.

Mavericks theming is already falling apart, the tunnel seldom works and the waterbombs keep malfunctioning.

3) Shoot the Rapids has more theming than any ride in the past 20 years.

DISpatch mASTER TRANSPORT had a ton more theming then STR, and look at it now. The theming could be a lot better, particularly how long the ride ride is.

That said, our WindSeekers are supposed to have some incredible lighting packages (at least the one at CP is).

How about the light package on Power Tower or Millennium Force or Giant Wheel (current package installed in 2000), all now neglected and needing repair.

The point is CP can not create nor maintain quality theming, there last successful themed project was in 1971 with frontier trail.

[patsum]

k

[XGatorHead 8904]

Now if only Cedar Fair can bring back the Kings of Komedy Clown Band... The one thing that KI is missing is the liver atmosphere entertainment in my opinion.

Frankly I don't think a "liver" atmosphere would be very enjoyable I love funny tiepolls.

I agree with you completely. At Busch Gardens Europe, they have a great drum corp, magicians, crooners, wild bird displays, and other performers all over the park. It really adds alot to the vibe of the park and would be a great and inexpensive addition to KI.

I agree with you on the liver atmosphere, but I'm not exactly sure what a tiepoll is either. Perhaps a typo?

I was thrilled when I saw all the roaming entertainment at Hersheypark two years ago, especially the Chocolate Covered Band. That really brought me back to the good old days of watching KI's Clown Band from the window of the Bakery on International Street my first year working at the park, all the way back in 1989.

On a side note, it's hard to believe that, come Haunt time, this will be my 20th season working at KI (I didn't work there '05-'08).

[dr_humor]

To say TTD has a nice theme is stretching it

I disagree wholeheartedly. You sit in race-car themed cars, sound effects of a revving engine until you blast off, and the light son the tower as well as the sign right by the launch...has it lost a little? Of course. Anything substantial? No.

Was I arguing that there is some sort of Disney-level theme? No...but TTD is very very well done for Cedar Fair's standards. There is nothing I would add to TTD personally.

Mavericks theming is already falling apart, the tunnel seldom works and the waterbombs keep malfunctioning.

Your statement is false. Actually, the waterbombs were working quite well all summer. They do shut them off from time to time, but in 47 trips last year, they were only "not working" twice. Twice. 45/47 is pretty good odds. And there is plenty of theming that cannot "not work"...that's the point. The canyons, the theme of the trains, the entire queue, the music...all theming, all working 100% of the time. Again, I am talking Cedar Fair here, not Disney.

DISpatch mASTER TRANSPORT had a ton more theming then STR, and look at it now. The theming could be a lot better, particularly how long the ride ride is.

I didn't say it couldn't be better, and DT was a one shot deal that, after it was done, the board of trustees agreed was a mistake. I said it had the most theming of any ride in the past 20 years, and that is correct. Could there be more? I guess...but CP is not a theme park, its an amusement park. For what it is, it's pretty darn good.

Again, I'm not pretending the theming present is even in the same league as Disney, or even Busch for that matter. I'm simply saying that for Cedar Fair, who typically does no theming whatsoever, there has been progress...that's all.

[markr]

A great deal of the charm of Maverick's theming is the Western music-at least that was part of the charm. Now you can barely hear the music.

[dr_humor]

It's quite possible we visit the park on very different days.

[bkroz]

To me, Maverick's tunnel is one of the coolest things on any roller coaster in Ohio. First the flashing railroad lights, then the LEDs that go from red to blue to white and "stretch back," creating an even greater illusion of speed... And then the flood lights turn on just as you slam onto your side. Truly one of the better moments on any roller coaster experience outside of Florida.

So why is it always off?

Such a shame... Whenever I bring first timers, I don't even bother mentioning what will happen midway through the ride, because I know chances are that it will not be functioning. It's ridiculous to me. It makes no more sense than that couple of weeks when the lights were on in Backlot Stunt Coaster's tunnel. It truly is no more difficult than flipping a switch. I can't imagine a viable reason why the lights in Maverick's tunnel should be turned off. I really can't. It's just haphazard. They're on when they want them to be, and sometimes they just forget.

It truly irritates me to a point that I'd rather not even get into (which is a pretty good indication that I'm a loser). Hahha.

[RingMaster]

There aren't big, well-themed rides at regional parks like Kings Island because, unlike Disney, they don't have 100 million dollars to spend on a single attraction. As destination parks, Universal and (to a somewhat lesser extent) Busch Gardens aren't comparable to Kings Island or the other Cedar Fair parks (with perhaps the exception of Cedar Point, although that is debatable).

I don't know if you've been to Tokyo DisneySea, but based on my experience there, I would say that park is far from meeting in the middle. It has both spectacular rides and amazing themeing, and having worked for one of the companies that built that park, I can assure you they paid a huge sum of money to make that experience. Money that Cedar Fair simply doesn't have, and money that Paramount/Viacom wasn't going to spend.

Then what about rides like Mystery Mine, Daredevil Falls, Splash Battle, and Barnstormer at a little park called Dollywood? They're not necessarily big, but they are well-themed and are at a regional park...

[The Interpreter]

Quality focus and attention to detail. Or lack thereof.

It really is that simple.

[dr_humor]

I think the bottom line to much of this conversation is that unlike Paramount, Cedar Fair really never has had a vested interest in using theming with their rides; that was an experience you could get at other parks, but never Cedar Point. Now that they have KI (and I must admit, KI has never been my home park, I have just adopted it as a "second home park" thanks to my wife), Diamondback (and TTD, Maverick, ect.) is as good as you can expect.

What has happened to the Crypt is a shame, but really no surprise at all. In his own words, Kinzel has often stated "the rides are the theme". He experimented with it once with DT, but the public response was not exactly flattering, and the cost was not something CP was really ready to absorb. Of course, instead of listening to the board members who were telling him not to re-do Avalanche Run, he surrounded himself with yes men (much like he still does today), and the project went forth. He at least has since publicly admitted that it was one of his biggest mistakes, but he was trying to make a splash in the beginning of his tenure.

If I want a themed experience, I will go to Busch Gardens Williamsburg or Dollywood...I simply do not go to Cedar Point or Kings Island expecting that, or wishing for more, because that's not what they are. That's like going to McDonald's any complaining that their burger doesn't taste like one from somewhere else. It is what it is.

Believe me, I also wish that they would pay more attention to little details, like fixing lights when they burn out on the ferris-wheel, etc...but they don't. However, it is not true that people are not vocal about this, it's simply that their complaints fall on deaf ears. People that outwardly disagree with Kinzel and his ruling don't fit in. Just google Jack Falfas. He didn't resign, he was forced out.

[Snowman]

If I want a themed experience, I will go to Busch Gardens Williamsburg or Dollywood...I simply do not go to Cedar Point or Kings Island expecting that, or wishing for more, because that's not what they are. That's like going to McDonald's any complaining that their burger doesn't taste like one from somewhere else. It is what it is.

I believe if you're passionate enough about something and put enough energy in it, change can happen and "It is what it is" is not true.

Example:

If you complain to McDonalds that their menu choices aren't enough to keep you coming back year after year, change just might happen:

Introducing the McLobster!!!

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

[dr_humor]

Which is exactly why Kinzel should have left years ago. He's the Brett Favre/Michael Jordan of CEO's...better to be a Barry Sanders and retire on top, rather than stick around way too long. Lack of vision, lack of creativity, and a complete inability to listen (as you say), to the voices of others...not to mention he also practices nepotism.

[The Interpreter]

No. No way. I know Bart Kinzel was the best qualified, most able person to become General Manager at Carowinds.

How do I know that? Dick said so.

And the board agreed.

Thus, it must be so.

Any Q's?

[CoastersRZ]

On a side note, it's hard to believe that, come Haunt time, this will be my 20th season working at KI (I didn't work there '05-'08).

I`m not quite to twenty yet, but this season will be my 10th season at Coney! Coincidentally, enough, it will be Coney`s 125th anniversary as well (see my avatar).

[windshawne]

I didn't get to experience Paramount for long-only returned the summer of 2006 to the park. Just a few observations...

Paramount always took the time to answer emails-pro or con, and they were personable with it. I have emails I sent to Cedar Fair two years ago and have yet to hear a response. I don't bother anymore.

Paramount was "fun". Cedar Fair, well, I dunno. I have openly observed employees not handling situations well. Granted, one summer compared to 4 is not enough to come to a conclusion, but if I can see these things, I'm sure the GP can.

Paramount seemed to have better communication. You can walk up to 5 different employees on any given day, ask a question, and get 5 different answers. This comes from the top-the employees are not to blame. Let's not forget the admission issues some on here have experienced.

I blame both managements for taking out the themed areas and turning it into a haphazard bunch of rides. I miss the theming, which is what made KI special. Its a confusing place to me now.

[CedarPointer]

I've seen Paramount handle things badly too. I never went to KI under Paramount, but I did once see multiple ride associates ignoring a crying child who had fallen and scraped his knee. (and no, they weren't ride ops, they were greeters) The only time I've seen anything bad at KI under CF is during the first few weekends. It's impossible to expect perfection out of someone who probably has never held a job before and has almost no experience dealing with customers. They can't train you on how to deal with a lady screaming at you because she thinks the free cups of water are too small. You need experience for things like that.

BTW, I doubt many of the employees are trying to give wrong information. I have said things which I honestly thought were correct, but turned out not to be.

[markr]

Unlike most of you, I have been around the entire 39 years of KI's existance through all the different managements. While each management period may have been different in certain ways, one thing I have always found to be the same no matter who was running KI and that is the wonderful and friendly staff. You can put millions into a park's capital investments but human resources are absolutely priceless. It is due in no small measure to the wonderful employees that I have become a regular fixture at KI during all these years.

[CoastersRZ]

Good customer service is central to any business. And positive customer interactions are critical to creating a fun and positive atmosphere for the park guests- they are after all the paying customers. Without them, there would be no park to run. A family may only be visiting a park one day a year, and if you are in a bad mood, that could hamper their fun visit to the park. Remember, an unhappy customer will generally tell others about their unpleasant experience, so it is paramount that parks emphasize customer service to their front line employees.

Having worked at Coney for as many seasons as I have, I can say that Coney certainly emphasizes customer service training. Throughout the years, I`ve attended scores of customer service training sessions. I may be atypical when it comes to working in an amusement park now, since the job at Coney is my secondary job. I do it simply because I have fun doing it. It always helps to have employees that enjoy what they are doing, because they will generally be more enthusiastic and typically will produce better interactions with the customers. Because of the low pay that most of these seasonal positions attract, often times the employees do not care about how their actions are perceived as a reflection on the business itself. Instead, they are counting down the minutes until their shift ends. Although, i am not longer a ride operator at Coney (I will be back again this summer at Coney on weekends, but as a rides manager, not an operator), I have already had to deal with scores of upset customers. Unfortunately, there are some customers that cannot be appeased, no matter how polite and courteous the employees are. I still remember what one of my managers told me at Coney when I was exhausted, and still had several hours to go on a busy Saturday during my first season. He said "look at all the kids that are smiling and having fun on your ride. Just think of all the memories they are making right now because of you." So whenever I am having a bad day, I think of what he said, and try and put on the best smile I can since the customers are there to have fun after all.

Boy I kind of rambled on and went off on a tangent.

[CedarPointer]

There's some cases where I think guests need to learn that they need to be polite, too. I refuse to be polite to someone who just accused me of stealing money from a small child, or someone who calls me an "stupid idiot" because she didn't realize a free drink wristband got her free drinks. We aren't punching bags. I wouldn't be obviously rude, but I'm certainly not going to say "Thank you, have a nice day!" after someone insults me.

[CoastersRZ]

Unfortunately, I have been called some rather bad things last year at Coney. One included a time when I was working the Ferris Wheel, and the parents needed to ride with the kids who were too short to ride by themselves. The only problem was that the parents had not bought rides wristbands and therefor could not ride. I apologized to the guests and told them that they needed to have a rides wristband to ride, and that their kids were too short to ride by themselves. I was then called a Nazi by one of the parents! I just brushed it off and apologized to them and said that those are our rules and the height requirements are set by the state.

Another time, I was a manager and responded to an irate guest who claimed height requirements were not being uniformly enforced on a certain ride. She was throwing cuss words at me, towards the park, and the ride operator, all in front of her kids. I apologized to her, but her kid was clearly too short to be admitted onto said attraction. I got the distinct feeling she was looking for a free hand out in the form of comp tickets. (She even told me that her visit to the park that day was from comp tickets). As the conversation ended, I said "Have a nice day." She muttered under her breath that that was impossible after her atrocious experience at the park. How hard is it to understand that height requirements exist for the safety of the riders?

[CedarPointer]

And this is why I think anyone who complains about something unreasonable and asks for free stuff should be banned from the property. There's some customers not worth having- if all they are going to do is complain, their money might not be worth the stress it causes for Guest Relations and the employees.

There's a lot of companies where I don't think realize that managers overruling the employees makes the employee unhappy. If I say no to something which policy says we can't do, and one of the managers comes up behind me and says I should do it, it makes me look like an idiot in front of the guest. I don't think anyone appreciates that. For example, a guest once asked me to give him water in a Coke cup, which we aren't allowed to do unless they buy it as a soft drink. Don't ask me why, but I'm paid to follow the rules that the park makes. Then, one of the managers comes up behind me and apologizes to the guest for my "attitude" (EXCUSE ME?), and gave him a 32oz cup of water, then says "Sorry" to me and walks away. Sometimes, the customer does, in fact, need to be told that they're wrong... politely, of course, but still...

[KILateNighter]

Wow I never thought that this little topic could cause so much discussion (6+ pages) but anyhow it's all good I enjoy reading everyone's opinions/thoughts on this topic.

[CoasterKrazy]

There aren't big, well-themed rides at regional parks like Kings Island because, unlike Disney, they don't have 100 million dollars to spend on a single attraction. As destination parks, Universal and (to a somewhat lesser extent) Busch Gardens aren't comparable to Kings Island or the other Cedar Fair parks (with perhaps the exception of Cedar Point, although that is debatable).

Then what about rides like Mystery Mine, Daredevil Falls, Splash Battle, and Barnstormer at a little park called Dollywood? They're not necessarily big, but they are well-themed and are at a regional park...

I've never been to Dollywood, but from what I can tell, the rides you mentioned do have very good themeing. But like you said, they aren't nearly the same scale as what can be found at Disney and Universal.

[The Interpreter]

Once upon a time, I thought Paramount Parks was far better at viral marketing and promotion than Cedar Fair.

Then there was this time something big was coming to Kings Island...and three video teasers, a goose chase, etc.

Well played.

Very well played.

Far better than fair, if I do say so myself.

Terp, any puns are strictly INtended....

[CoastersRZ]

I agree. All the hype for this new attraction has been very reminiscent of the Jeff Siebert days. And it definitely gets people talking about the park and the new attractions.

[RaptorGuy]

The Paramount Days, the themeing was very bad for what theyvwere billing the park to be. They wanted to make it the Universal of the Midwest. They fell way short of that goal. I think Cedar Fair does better with thrill rides, but I think Paramount was a lot friendlier and welcoming. I don't feel welcome at KI under CF. All the uppers who walk around the park remind me of Walter, Jeff Dunham's puppet! I feel they are looking down their noses at me and it makes me uncomfortable. That's the biggest difference in the two, to me.

[DoctorDiablo]

For me it can really be a mixed bag...on one hand you have the Adventure Express ride operators who look bored out of their minds, which I can understand to a point, but it often reflects in their enthusiasm (or lack thereof), but then you have the crew who run The Beast and i can't tell you how great a job they do at getting riders excited. I've witnessed both on two different occasions under CF.

That being said, the park is cleaner...and look no further than what they are doing to Coney Mall. That whole area is been ignored for far too long so it's really nice to see it getting some love. Overall though, I would say they both have/had their pros and cons.

[superslif]

Any comparisons between CP, KI and Kennywood. Off The Bat I will say having the right to bring in your picnic lunch inside the park is a big plus.....Kennywood and it's sister park Idlewild in SW. PA. are more for the budget minded famlies......How do others feel about that....."Being able to bring in your our picnic lunch"

Here in NE Ohio, we had Geauga Lake Park. It was bought out by 6 Flags which stopped picnic lunches and doubled or tripled it's food prices and charged big $$$ for parking....People stopped coming...Ceder Fair stepped in for a cheap $$$ and bought the place....But could not get the people back.....It ended up closing.....except for the water park. I know at least one of the coasters was moved to KI...?

[The Interpreter]

Yes, X-Flight became Firehawk. And with all due respect, when Cedar Fair took over Six Flags Worlds of Adventure, many of the food prices INcreased and the quality of the food DEcreased....

Terp, just sayin'