Will Timberliner trains be added to The Voyage in 2012?

[TombRaiderFTW]

^ Somehow, I'm not surprised... Given the timing, I smell an ultimatum delivered as soon as the park went weekends-only. Never thought I'd see a day when I like Cedar Fair more than Holiday World management.

[The Interpreter]

At least Dick Kinzel is welcome at Cedar Point.

[TombRaiderFTW]

As long as the shareholders and Falfas aren't visiting that day, anyway.

[McSalsa]

So much for that. Via the HoliBlog:

For four years, we have worked in partnership with Gravitykraft Corp. to test a new style of roller coaster train for The Voyage, our award-winning wooden roller coaster.

We very much appreciate Gravitykraft’s efforts in this process, however ultimately we have decided to continue running the existing trains on our three wooden coasters.

Ouch...this could be bad news for The Voyage's long-term future. The PTC trains have already been shown to be tearing the track up, to the point where re-tracking is only a temporary fix to a larger problem the ride seems to have. The Timberliners were hoped to fix this problem, but now they appear to have kicked the bucket. What happens now when Holiday World can't afford (or refuses) to re-track The Voyage every single year? It will get rougher, and rougher, and fall from grace...this is reminding me a lot of what happened with the original Texas Giant- it started out as a world-class coaster, winning numerous awards, but as time went on it tore itself apart and eventually became notorious as one of the roughest wooden coasters out there. In it's case, thankfully, Rocky Mountain came in and was able to transform it into a world-class steel coaster, New Texas Giant...although the recent death on the ride has put another stain on it.

It seems that, for most cases, giant wooden coasters do not work- not counting Intamin's prefabs or possibly Rocky Mountain topper tracked rides- as while they are awesome their first few seasons, the high speeds and imperfect trackwork (which is normally a trademark feature on smaller wooden coasters) eventually cause them to become incredibly rough and painful. Son of Beast, The Rattler, Hercules, Old Texas Giant...all examples of giant wooden coasters that failed in the end, and either needed heavily modified or demolished. The Beast at Kings Island has only worked because it's unique design uses long straight sections, underground tunnels, trim brakes, and large swooping curves to handle the increased speeds.

Voyage's future is iffy now- if it continues running as-is, it's only a matter of time before it turns into a overly rough wreck unless the park takes drastic measures to save it. There are possible options, however...

#1- Dan Koch regains control of the park and re-starts Timberliner testing, and this time they work.

#2- Rocky Mountain Coasters is brought in and gives the entire ride topper track.

#3- Rocky Mountain Coasters is brought in and gives the entire ride the "Texas Giant" treatment, turning Voyage into a steel coaster. In this case, it would actually be all-steel...and would be quite the weird steel coaster, to be honest, as it would basically be a steel coaster that tries to look and act like a wooden coaster, but with steel supports and track.

#4- Somehow, GCI's Millennium Flyer trains are used, and they end up working. (Not likely though)

Sigh. While I enjoyed my visit to Holiday World this year (a lot, in fact), this current management could possibly ruin this small park. Ironically, this is coming at a time when Kings Island's management seems to know what it is doing and is adding a huge new steel coaster, and another possible competitor, Kentucky Kingdom, is emerging. Not to mention Dollywood (whom also competes with Holiday World) is also poised to add something they are saying is "big". Holiday World is not in a great spot right now.

[BeastForever]

So Voyage won't be getting Timberliners any time soon? That's a bummer, they look so comfortable...

[Diamondback96]

Did I miss when CBS started running HW?

[Vortex]

Its a same I really wanted to like the Voyage, but it hurt my back.

[upstop]

I wonder what the issue is with the timberliners....I guess we'll never know.

[Creed Bratton]

Truly disappointed. A 2nd reason to why I won't visit the park.

[TheBEASTunchained]

Wow, McSalsa laid it all out right there! Great post! (or bad in some standpoints)

[malem]

As mentioned in other threads, they also seem hesitant to run both (PTC) trains on The Voyage. Bad news, indeed.

[Joncars05]

How did we turn a situation where a company couldn't put trains on their own ride for over 4 years into Holiday World's management is bad?

I still don't get what you guys see in Dan Koch. The guy is not good for the company. He didn't want anything to do with Holiday World while Will was running the show. He moved to Florida and lead a small lawyer firm that was 1600 miles away from the family business. Divorced his wife, and only showed interest in HW when his brother died. He raised his salary at Holiday World by 4X (to $1.16 million) in his short term of running the park.

He is an opportunist and is just using his family name to try and make more money.

[Shaggy]

It's so sad to see a loving family unti unravel.

Unfortunately, I have a bad feeling the park will continue to suffer in the crossfire.

Summer in Louisville was missing something that has been a staple for eons - those unforgettable family based HW commercials. Consumers related strongly to the family representation HW always had. Without it, I would expect the park didn't seem "charming" as it had in years prior. That HAD to have affected their draw.

Shaggy

[malem]

How did we turn a situation where a company couldn't put trains on their own ride for over 4 years into Holiday World's management is bad?

If the Timberliners were indeed too light to complete the circuit, there may not have been a fix for those.

The bad news is that management apparently decided to abandon the replacement project, when the major goal was to reduce excessive wear and tear on the track.

Granted, none of us know the reasoning behind the decision or what the long-term plan is now. Hopefully there's not another maintenance situation like The Freedom Train's.

[IBEW_Sparky]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I will say again...... isnt it funny how, in Feb of 09 at the unveiling at GK headquarters, it was told to those of us who where there that those trains were designed SPECIFICALLY for Voyage?? I still say they just put too much effort into that high five-ing ride in China (imagine that) and Wooden Warrior at Quassy, because those were bigger money makers then actually making them work on Voyage Priority number 1 and only to fulfil their contract and make good on their word. Not enough of that goin' 'round these days.

[Colonel_SoB_fan]

It's so sad to see a loving family unti unravel.

Unfortunately, I have a bad feeling the park will continue to suffer in the crossfire.

Summer in Louisville was missing something that has been a staple for eons - those unforgettable family based HW commercials. Consumers related strongly to the family representation HW always had. Without it, I would expect the park didn't seem "charming" as it had in years prior. That HAD to have affected their draw.

Shaggy

There haven't been Holiday World commercials in Louisville? I have seen Kings Island, Dollywood, and Holiday World commercials here in Berea, KY.

[The Interpreter]

There is a noticeable absence of family commercials, as in Pat and the Koch family. Pat was the personage of Holiday World for many. New management has taken great delight in pursuing other Pat-less directions. This has not gone without notice. Coverage of the court spat also is not a PR positive.

[Joncars05]

How did we turn a situation where a company couldn't put trains on their own ride for over 4 years into Holiday World's management is bad?

If the Timberliners were indeed too light to complete the circuit, there may not have been a fix for those.

The bad news is that management apparently decided to abandon the replacement project, when the major goal was to reduce excessive wear and tear on the track.

Granted, none of us know the reasoning behind the decision or what the long-term plan is now. Hopefully there's not another maintenance situation like The Freedom Train's.

Very true. It just that it has been over 4 years of promises and they (Gravity Group) have not delivered on their promise. If I was in management, and something was promised to me for 4+ years and didn't come through, I would do the same thing and end the relationship. The only thing that complicates the matter is that this all surrounds the flagship ride at HW. I completely agree with you. Voyage is my #1 coaster wood or steel. I hope that the PTCs don't prove to be the downfall of the ride. I hope too that maintenance costs don't exceed the perceived value of the ride otherwise it may ultimately be the end of Voyage. :-/

[The Interpreter]

It doesnt help matters that the designers of the Timberliners designed Voyage. If that relationship sours, nothing good lies down that road.

[TTD-120-420]

How did we turn a situation where a company couldn't put trains on their own ride for over 4 years into Holiday World's management is bad?

I still don't get what you guys see in Dan Koch. The guy is not good for the company. He didn't want anything to do with Holiday World while Will was running the show. He moved to Florida and lead a small lawyer firm that was 1600 miles away from the family business. Divorced his wife, and only showed interest in HW when his brother died. He raised his salary at Holiday World by 4X (to $1.16 million) in his short term of running the park.

He is an opportunist and is just using his family name to try and make more money.

Dan used to post over on Coasterbuzz. I do not see why people want him back. From his posts he seemed like a tool, and Putz asked him to stop posting,

Other than bringing Pat back, I don't see much good coming from Dan. (I will admit, I have not followed HW for very long, so I'm not completely in the know)

[stashua123]

Was going to visit this park next year but I guess I may go to Kentucky Kingdom instead. Very dissapointed. Those PTC's work great on all coasters Under 150 feet. Above that wooden rollercoasters need to have specialized trains or else they'll become the Old Texas Giant(Wins awards even 8 years into its life but then becomes notoriously rough.)

[The Interpreter]

Really? Then why Predator (95 feet)? Cheetah (90 feet)? GhostRider (118 feet)? Hercules (95 feet)? Wolverine Wildcat (85 feet)? Gwazi (105.4 feet)?

Each of these has or had PTC trains. Each required or requires extraordinary levels of maintenance. Each quickly became harsh, rough rides, except right after extreme maintenance/retracking. None was 150 feet tall.

I submit the trains are not the cause of Voyage's extraordinary maintenance requirements\vibration\harshness. Note that many of the coasters cited are Dinn or CCI rides. Economy of first cost is a factor. GCI rides rarely suffer the same fate (but see Geazi).

New management at Holiday World may not dedicate the same levels of maintenance to Voyage as Will did. This could result in a less satisfactory Voyage or no Voyage at all. Running single train operations on Legend and Voyage more frequently is a sign of a park doing what it can to lower operations cost, either because it can or it must. This is not a good sign.

As for Dan posting on CoasterBuzz about the suit, lawyers advise their clients not to discuss ongoing litigation. His doing so was unwise and can even be perceived as being lacking class. It certainly was not smart. And that's not even taking into account the content of his posts, which would only make matters worse.

Holiday World is at a juncture. As much as I hate to say it, before this is over, it would not surprise me if the park is sold. And whether that is a good thing or a bad thing will depend on who buys it. One sad fact remains.

Pat has lost two sons and a park she loved recently. Good estate planning could have prevented that last part. What we see here now is the result of an ambiguous agreement, now being interpreted by the Courts. The lawyer fees alone here are probably now in the millions of dollars. The stress, strain, hostility and distraction from happy family life and business focus cannot be measured in monetary terms.

I will always believe that Bluegrass Boardwalk fell apart because of this situation, and, that had it continued, Holiday World and the Koch family relationships would all be in even more peril than they are today.

[stashua123]

Good points O'Terpy. I forgot about some of those coasters.

[medford]

Sad to hear all of this going down. We were planning a day at the park this summer as part of our Indy excurasion to the children's museum and the Indy Zoo, but my son was a shade shy of 48" at KI (actually hit the mark a week after our trip, partly I'm sure from wearing a new pair of shoes that I think are a little bit thicker) and not knowing how things differ b/w measuring someone's height at KI vs how they measure it at Holiday World we decided to hold off a year knowing that he would want to ride all 3 of the woodies, and w/o those we weren't sure we could make a half a day at the park (we also have a 1 year old, so the water park side isn't the best option for us in terms of making a full day of it, naps aside). Reading all of this makes me wonder if I want to go there next year or not. I'd like to give those rides a spin, possible before the park starts to fall into disrepair (if it goes that route, who knows), but then again, I don't want to drive all that way for a park experience that was well short of what I can get 20 min from my house at KI.

[Creed Bratton]

Screamscape posted this, made me laugh:

[Joncars05]

CoastBuzz was supposed to have an event at HW on Sept 14th but due to low enrollment they cancelled it. So what does HW do? They offer free ERT on Voyage for the people who signed up and enthusiasts (and their guests) who are going to be in the park on Sept 14th. Their requirements are :

1) That you let me know in this (HWN 2013 FB) thread that you're planning to attend.

2) That you meet up with me at the north side of Plymouth Rock Cafe at 5:30pm CT on September 14.

3) As my 16-month-old grandson Cameron says, "Be happy!"

They didn't have to do this for us yet they did it anyways. I am telling you Paula and her PR team are just amazing. They really know how to take care of their guests! Not very many parks would do this for free. HW once again proves why it is my and many other's number one park!