Documentary concerning Seaworld ("Blackfish")

[The Interpreter]

An analysis with a different view:

http://m.travelweekly.com/3_article?guid=255595&t=1&s=1&from=1_tab1

[faeriewench]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGxMLiL1uZI

This is far more worth your time, if you feel strongly about whales/dolphins/exotics in captivity. Make about an hour of your time free if you care to watch.

Truth is, whether they are raised in captivity or not, their wild instincts take over quickly so long as they are properly prepared for it. Keiko is a shining example of this. But he also was not born in captivity. I'm all about a sea pen myself...these animals were not made for captivity. Plain and simple. And I hate when people try to compare this whole thing to dogs and cats. We've domesticated them..along with livestock ( horses, cows, chickens, etc ) so they require the care of people ( although if need be, they will find deep within themselves the will to survie...those deeply rooted wild instincts do take over...aka feral cats and wild dog packs that look like pets but are not.)

Everyone has their views on these things. I remember as a child my dream job was to become a dolphin trainer, but I learned the truth as time went on. I'm not one of those crazy anti-cap people, but I don't support exploiting animals for entertainment/money. For what it costs most families to make a trip to a state that has a Sea World, their money could be better spent on a trip to whale watch and see them in their natural habitats. The only thing people are learning from seeing these animals in captivity are that this is a spectacle of dominance..man over beast...and when the show is over a lot of these animals float lifelessly in their pools and are bored, lonely and agitated. Not to mention their sensitive hearing and that loud pounding music cannot be good for them.

Greed truly does nasty things to people. You wanna see an aquarium doing good things, go to the Oregon Coast Aquarium. They focus entirely on rehabilitation and not performance. Of course any animal that cannot be released safely and properly stays, but they don't have the stress of doing stupid tricks all day. If Sea World did this entirely, I would be on board...but the fact nearly all their animals perform dumb tricks all day is what kills that for me.

Anyways, I'm done. I will not go on any farther. I see no need to. I know in my heart its wrong to take wild animals from the ocean, force them to perform with "positive reward", and work them until they die...breed them in captivity...to make more profit. Sea World is a business first and foremost and money will always be the root of keeping these animals in concrete prisons. People just choose to be blind to this because they don't want to believe it.

Anyways, watch the above video, if you care. I feel it is one more people need to see.

Even worse than MSQ (park in that video to those who don't know)....go research what Russia has been doing. Those orcas are the only ones that can really benefit from the Blackfish craze since they are freshly caught and being sold to various Asian parks. For the most part they been ignored by those who supposedly love these animals.

[Tanna]

Thanks for the added info.

Djskyfox, thanks for the link- I'd been wanting to see this.

I don't want them to be circus monkeys, either. I just don't want them dumped like stray cats in a trailer park, or crowded to another park.

I especially appreciate your thoughts about the show being a display of man over beast. That's exactly what I see, too, thus my 'Lion Tamer' remark. Perhaps with no trainers in the pool, it will discourage younger people from pursuing this goal.

Once on a boating vacation, what I first thought were 'strange waves' turned out to be a batch of dolphins. Needless to say, i was amazed, and I'd much prefer seeing the animals represented at Seaworld this way then performing.

(I edited while you were posting a reply- sorry- and sorry about the doubling the thread. Can this thread by joined onto The others?)

[faeriewench]

Thanks for the added info.

Djskyfox, thanks for the link- I'd been wanting to see this.

I don't want them to be circus monkeys, either. I just don't want them dumped like stray cats in a trailer park.

Just an FYI there are also couple other threads already with Blackfish discussions.

http://www.KICentral.com/forums/index.php/topic/27946-blackfish-the-movie/

http://www.KICentral.com/forums/index.php/topic/28198-busch-gardens-williamsburg-cuts/

Not to mention their sensitive hearing and that loud pounding music cannot be good for them.

Orcas have the most sensitive hearing between 15-20 kHz, so basically the music is nothing more than background noise or similar to what we used to hear on our TVs as kids with the static snow screen. I don't like the loud music mostly because it is at times too loud even for me, so I would often find myself with my ear buds in listening to my ipod as opposed to the music at the stadium.

(I edited while you were posting a reply- sorry- and sorry about the doubling the thread. Can this thread by joined onto The others?)

I think it is up to the mods.

I understand that there isn't a way to undue the damage done by the parks, the whales, etc. I understand that these whales can't be released safely back into the wild. I just don't understand why SeaWorld continues to leave these animals in such poor conditions and pretty much force them to perform for food.

Poor conditions? Again go research the Asia parks where the latest captured orcas are goin and then compare them to SeaWorld and then we will talk. They don't perform for food, they are given their food throughout the day even when they are in crabby moods. They aren't forced to perform as pointed out before. At the end of the day when the trainers go home at night...they are treated to a feeding frenzy sort to speak, so with that they probably overeat. Starved? Right....then I guess we imagined Tillikum's fat rolls throughout the 2000s, he really looked like he was starving. After the 2010 incident they started exercising him more and he finally dropped the weight and he looks like a normal bull now. (well sort of).

[Tanna]

Well, i guess I'll just shut up now.

[TTD-120-420]

http://www.jlpp.org/2013/11/26/rebuttal-a-stronger-case-for-seaworld/

[DJSkyFoxx]

The difference between me and many people out there is that I love these animals in the wild and not in captivity...while there are those who seem to love them in captivity.

If you love these animals, why love them confined in such a way? A tank will never be an ocean. And it doesn't even matter how well they're taken care of...the point is they never should have been in human hands at all.

And I am fully aware there are whales in far worse conditions, such as Kshamenk who is currently held in horrible conditions at a run down aquarium in Argentina.

http://cetaceaninspiration.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/liberty-for-kshamenk/

[jcgoble3]

My understanding—and someone please correct me if I'm wrong—is that anytime SeaWorld takes in an animal (be it an orca or any other creature) from the wild, they do so with the goal of treating and rehabilitating its injuries and releasing it back into the wild as soon as reasonably possible, and it is only those who have injuries that are unable to fully heal and would spell death for them in the wild that are kept in captivity, moved into the parks, and become show/display animals. Of course, the offspring of those injured animals, being that they are born in captivity to begin with, are then unable to be released into the wild because they are unable to develop the necessary survival instincts that they would if born and raised in the wild, but I see that as preferable to turning them loose to die in the wild.

[disco2000]

just be glad we live in a country where we are given freedom of speech and the right to question - in many countries, a lot of posts throughout this forum (not just this topic) would be under continuous censorship and would never see the light of day; public flogging of those with posts deemed questionable; and perhaps death in other parts of the world.

Personally, I try not to worry about things outside of my control (but even that is tough to do). For every show-whale SeaWorld has, how many other whales and animals have been rescued and given proper care to then reenter nature - maybe show-whales is a small price to pay for the overall good being provided to countless other wild animals that were injured and brought back to health and then returned to the wild. Same with zoos. Being an animal trainer is dangerous. So is being a firefighter, police officer, or astronaut - should we eliminate those jobs as well because people have been killed in those jobs? Do we really need to risks peoples lives to go into space?

The fact of the matter is that things learned in space has made our lives better. The things being learned about animals at SeaWorld and zoos can ultimately save an animal from extinction. Some will find that acceptable, while others will say if they were meant to die off, then we shouldn't interfere. Taking that logic one step further, then we shouldn't be trying to find cures for cancer, AIDS, etc. and we shouldn't allow people to undergo experimental treatment that furthers the science so that perhaps in the future a cure can be found.

I will end with if you make the argument that animals shouldn't be displaced from their natural habitat, period, then I think you have some serious soul-searching to do. The native americans probably say the same thing about you and I, so unless you are 100% native American, you should go back to England, Europe, Japan, Africa, Korea, China or whatever country your ancestors came from and return this land back to those that were first here. We will not see many people do that. Not everything humans do is perfect, and unfortunately there have been stumbles along the way, but as long as we grow and learn and make the world a better place and try to learn from mistakes and rectify when possible, that is all we can ask for in a modern society. The alternative is to go back to living off the land with no phones, no lights, no motor cars, not a single luxury.

[The Interpreter]

There are those who do that. I believe some of them live in Pennsylvania and Ohio, among other places. They are, of course, the Amish.

[faeriewench]

My understanding—and someone please correct me if I'm wrong—is that anytime SeaWorld takes in an animal from the wild, they do so with the goal of treating and rehabilitating its injuries and releasing it back into the wild as soon as reasonably possible, and it is only those who have injuries that are unable to fully heal and would spell death for them in the wild that are kept in captivity, moved into the parks, and become show/display animals. Of course, the offspring of those injured animals, being that they are born in captivity to begin with, are then unable to be released into the wild because they are unable to develop the necessary survival instincts that they would if born and raised in the wild, but I see that as preferable to turning them loose to die in the wild.

For the most part, you hit the nail on the head. Though SeaWorld hasn't actually taken an orca that was directly from the wild in decades. (those they have taken in since the 80s had been someplace else like Marineland Canada or Sealand originally before actually going to SeaWorld) Morgan is the most recent example as Harderwijk and their folks did her rescue initially and she is now a SeaWorld orca at Loro Parque. Moragn was found in the wild starving and with a bad case of peanut head, which is a sign of malnourishment, and she was still bit of a youngin (kind of youngin that still needed her mom to survive). When she was first brought in I had little to no hope for her even that she would actually survive.

So everyone knows I'm far from being someone that supports everything that SeaWorld does, I don't even like their bottlenose dolphin tanks to be honest cause of the sheer amount of them rascals they got. They breed very, very well...too well if you'd ask me. Hence why....I actually love the Mirage dolphin habitat.

In all honesty...a lot of people refuse to admit but if it hadn't actually been for SeaWorld no one would give a flip about orcas. Before the first captive orcas, we as humans, were still hunting and killing them, either because they were nuisances to fisherman or for sport. And probably still be going after them present day more than likely.

[Tanna]

So much for shutting up.

For those that saw the film, spend at least that much time researching the other point of view.

I honestly did not know until about a week ago that Seaworld had other animals. I thought they only had killer whales. The focus of the film doesn't go into the other animals very much.

I had never put much thought into this park until then.

The official website, of course, is PR.

So was the documentary. Give both equal time and make your own decision.

As a warning, due not view the webcams unless you have a few hours to kill. To me, they were mesmerizing.

As fairiewench said, some things in the park, are not perfect, but investing in the park can make it more so.

Let's not descriminate against these whales due to where they were born. Let us buy them lunch.

I'm liking all the links and posts on both sides. I like to hear all the debate, not just one side.

[shark6495]

Maybe Im late to this party or not...

Sea World has a response.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/20/us/seaworld-newspaper-ads/

Personally, I think any time an animal is in any type of enclosure it is stressful on the animals. This is how I feel about all enclosures, Sea World, sea pens, The Wilds, The Cincinnati Zoo, the Columbus Zoo, etc. But does this mean we should eliminate them? No! These offer opportunities for education and saving of these animals.

If we can preserve animal species or inspire a young child who goes on to be the next Jane G. then I say then it is all worth it.

As for the Sea World event, I do not know enough about what is real and what is exaggerated. I will say this, Sea World, IMHO, has done more good than bad. This could be just by raising awareness in young children and adults alike. ...

[faeriewench]

The whales in captivity now are our responsibility to care for the remainder of their lives. Humans dragged them and their ancestors from the wild, humans gotta take care of them. The orcas of SeaWorld/Loro Parque, Marineland France, Port, and Kamogawa Sea World will likely never see the ocean. Same goes for the 3 lone orcas, Kshamenk, Lolita and Kiska. (in Kshamenk's and Lolita's case I use "lone" kind of loosely because while they are the lone orcas at their parks they are not truly alone at all). Of those 3 loners, Kiska at Marineland Canada is probably the one I actually worry about the most. Sure she has a real large, roomy tank...but I don't think she is honestly receiving enough attention as her trainers not only look after her but the parks 30+ belugas they have living crammed in the tank next to hers. Marineland Canada is probably the one park where I will say I do not like its upper management, at all. I would LOVE to see Kiska out of there and living among other females around her age but with the current management there her fate is pretty much sealed and she will be at that park till the day she dies.

There is no need for any more captures, I am appalled the Russians captured a bunch and even more irked by the reactions towards their situation. Almost no attention on them and I am hearing some pretty bad stories about those orcas. They should be released.

[shark6495]

now its probably a dumb question, but why cant these animals ever be rehabbed to be taken out into the wild? I realize that one generation wouldnt do it, but could they possibly take a large sea pen with a decent to nice natural flow in from the ocean, and match a zoo female with a captured male? If they were to breed could the baby be born with more natural instincts? Maybe bring in other fish/prey for them to learn to hunt?

[faeriewench]

Ocean is filled with a ton of pollution thanks to us, that just exposing them to things that'll make them sick and probably kill them (example: Puget Sound where Lolita was captured from). Then there are the captive born orcas who have no real place to go as they are hybrids (parents never would have naturally met in the wild), they'd probably need human care for the rest of their lives in a sea pen. Keiko and Springer are not true successes. Keiko still required humans to care for him, Springer's reintroduction to her family/natal pod didn't go well as they chased her off. She hangs out with distant relatives instead since her grandma, and aunts didn't welcome her. Orcas in the wild don't typically welcome newcomers so easily, not like bottlenose dolphins where their pods are much more fluid.

[faeriewench]

Ok this is where I have a problem. I've never watched anything cetacean related on my Netflix but the first thing that pops up is BLACKFISH: "They're hunted, herded, and forced to dance. Meet a 15,000 pound slave -- on the edge of psychotic break." Just about every word in that statement is wrong. That right there is where I have a problem with Blackfish.

The message Blackfish really leaves with people is unclear, people just walk away thinking "SeaWorld is bad" and/or "FREE THE WHALES!!!!111" And I don't think that's the kind of takeaway people should have if they really care about making things better for SW's killer whales. I hate the way Blackfish presented its argument, but I would have less of a problem with Blackfish if it had a clear message of "SeaWorld needs to make improvements" which I do agree that they do.

[Tanna]

It's a poorly done movie, or else I wouldn't be so obsessed- yes! Obsessed! with digging up more information.

I picked the film to watch because I like killer whales, and it had the picture.

(There's a National Geographic show about them on Netflix, too. It focuses on their cleverness.)

I like the shows better when there are no trainers in the water, because there's a moment when you wonder who trained who?

On one comment board, I read from an "ex trainer" (I'm starting to think there's more ex trainers than there are stars in the sky.) that the only food they got was during the shows. He's trying to tell me that a great big huge whale gets by on five tin buckets of fish a day?

The facts come out eventually, as people discern.

[The Interpreter]

I've been fairly quiet.

This comes at a very dangerous time for SeaWorld and thus the orcas. For many years, AnheuserBusch had owned SeaWorld. When August Busch IV took over, it was clear he hadn't much interest in the parks. Turns out the same could be said of the beer company. All was sold.

IN BEV, the buyer, wasn't interested in the parks. Blackstone, an investment group (private equity) picked them up. As such companies do, massive cuts were made. They just finished selling out their controlling interest and now have only a minority interest.

A public company, SeaWorld will now face public scrutiny to a level it hasn't in the past. Activist investors may well raise Cain.

The table is set. What will be served and to whose liking remains to be seen.

I suspect several there regret naming the new company what they did already.

It cannot be assumed that what was done in the past will carry on to the future.

[faeriewench]

Well said

[Creed Bratton]

Okay, it's taken me a few days to process and think about it.

What I posted earlier, is blah...forget that. Okay? Please?

After thinking of it, Sea World is the best place for these Orcas, honestly, I don't think there is any other chain or program that is better for the whales. I'm glad that they have taken care of the Orcas and rehabilitated the various other animals in and out of their facilities.

[shark6495]

I've been fairly quiet.

This comes at a very dangerous time for SeaWorld and thus the orcas. For many years, AnheuserBusch had owned SeaWorld. When August Busch IV took over, it was clear he hadn't much interest in the parks. Turns out the same could be said of the beer company. All was sold.

IN BEV, the buyer, wasn't interested in the parks. Blackstone, an investment group (private equity) picked them up. As such companies do, massive cuts were made. They just finished selling out their controlling interest and now have only a minority interest.

A public company, SeaWorld will now face public scrutiny to a level it hasn't in the past. Activist investors may well raise Cain.

The table is set. What will be served and to whose liking remains to be seen.

I suspect several there regret naming the new company what they did already.

It cannot be assumed that what was done in the past will carry on to the future.

What did they rename the company?

[The Interpreter]

Busch Entertainment Corporation became SeaWorld Parks and Entertainment then just SeaWorld Entertainment, Inc.

[sheikra_rocks]

On one comment board, I read from an "ex trainer" (I'm starting to think there's more ex trainers than there are stars in the sky.) that the only food they got was during the shows. He's trying to tell me that a great big huge whale gets by on five tin buckets of fish a day?

The facts come out eventually, as people discern.

I was there about a month after the incident with Dawn. Tilikum was in the show, and there is NO WAY that whale has missed a feeding.

I used to work with animals at a zoo in Florida. I handled reptiles such as alligators, crocodiles, pythons, etc. I also handled birds of prey (BOP) and exotic birds.

Reptiles are different. They can lean to associate certain sounds with food, but you can NOT train an alligator, crocodile, or a snake.

BOP and exotics on the other hand, can be trained. During a show, if the bird did not complete the requested task, they were not instantly rewarded. However, once they are back in their mews, (barn that houses BOP) or the exotic bird house, (each bird had it's own individual cage) they get a full meal.

Wasn't I quite handsome 10 years ago? LOL

A comment the irks me is when the trainers said, "I never thought anything like this would happen." "I didn't think anything bad would happen."

SERIOUSLY???

If you work with a particular animal long enough, you will be bitten. The bites always happen when you let your guard down, or become too comfortable with the animal. In captivity, when bites happen, it is NEVER the animal's fault. It is the person who is injured that is at fault.

I have been bitten by snakes, alligators, birds, dogs, cats, etc.

What I don't understand is in the footage that one would assume is when the whale grabbed Dawn, where was her hand? You can not see her arm because Tilikum is in the line of site from the camera. Did she have her hand in his mouth petting his tongue?

Exactly like this person:

There's nothing stopping this Beluga from biting this woman. This makes a lot more sense that him grabbing her ponytail.

They tell you not to lift the paper high enough for the dolphin to see it. There are even signs all over the place.

This little girl learned the hard way:

Who's fault is that? It's not Sea World's fault, it CERTAINLY is not the dolphin's fault.

I am going to join the protesters in front of Sea World, but my sign will say, "I'm with Stupid." or "Legalize Same Sex Marriage." or something completely not related.

Like these people:

Or better yet, a sign stating, "Honk if Disney should release the animatronic hippos!"

[The Interpreter]

Being present with a sign, ANY sign, is NOT doing anything BUT aiding and abetting the protesters:

* Many cannot or will not read the signs.

* Rules and laws typically prohibit the act of carrying signs, chanting, congregating for disruptive purposes, etc. The content of the signs is typically of little or no relevancy in determining whether the rule, regulation or law has been violated. Carrying and displaying an irrelevant sign at a protest is typically deemed as participating in that protest--by the owner, by visitors, by law enforcement, by prosecutors, judges and juries.

* Many will assume, incorrectly, that they know what they say.

* Many will not want to go anywhere near where there is a crowd with signs. Some will leave before entering the park, depriving it of income. Some will NEVER return.

* You are contributing toward potential disorder and violence...on or near park property. You could even be risking your liberty, your arrest record, your health or your life. What other protesters may do is unpredictable, and they certainly are not going to be happy you are belittling them and what they see as a worthy cause worth fighting for.

* Ironically and sadly, your presence legitimizes their protest, giving it credibility and perhaps the small edge that the fight is worth going on. These people want attention. Your presence helps to cause publicity, concern, disorder and confusion, all contributing to their goals: make SeaWorld an unpredictable, uncomfortable place and make people not want to be or go there.

* Typically, you are breaking park rules.

* If protesters are arrested, injured, or, heaven forfend, killed, you likely will be as well. Law enforcement and even park fans engaging in self help typically have little to no inclination or time to make fine distinctions as to intent when engaging in remedial, law enforcement or palliative measures.

Joining protesters, but with irrelevant signs, is typically a very bad idea. Very bad, indeed.

Not to mention that were a bird or a flock of birds flying overhead determined to dive bomb the protesters on a disposal run, you'd be also within their sights!

[faeriewench]

I was there about a month after the incident with Dawn. Tilikum was in the show, and there is NO WAY that whale has missed a feeding.

As far as I am aware Tillikum did not perform (I am assuming you are talking about Believe right?) in the show until well after the summer season had already ended following his attack on Dawn (actually it was more closer to a year later, around the time of the announcement that Believe was gonna be replaced). If you indeed saw him it wasn't intentional on SeaWorld's part because they did everything they could to shelter him in the back pools since the attack was still fresh in people's minds, Tillikum would have had to sneak to the show on his own. Sure you didn't mistaken one of the adult females for him? That time Katina was heavily pregnant so she was huuuge and her dorsal is flopped, Kalina was still alive, she was a large, chunky female with a flopped dorsal as well. I just remember being at the park during the time they were conditioning him for his return to the show when he be performing alongside his grandson. But you would be right...he has not missed a feeding...he defiantly always looked that way from about 2001 until summer 2010, now he looks pretty good (though he managed to put some pounds back on...).

After working with bobcats and servals... (same can be said about domestics too though I am not convinced cats are truly domesticated at all) I have long since known anything that has teeth, sharp teeth at that, can and do bite. It is their nature. Even with horses you can not let your guard down, especially when you are transporting one and if it gets spooked....yeah pain can follow when they kick you. They also bite, often on accident if you are giving them a treat (though stallions tend to have bad manners so they'll bite anyway).

And interesting thing, a girl I know that currently works with sea lions had her finger pretty much bitten off (they got it reattached successfully) and she still works with sea lions, I'm sure if Dawn survived she'd still love her whales. Just like I still love my large cats

[BoddaH1994]

I watched the first few minutes of the documentary. These former trainers are essentially saying that they were asked to get in the water with the wales on their first day. I've met some of the trainers... all of which said that they trained for months or years and had to get acclimated with the wales long before they were allowed to get in the water.

[Tanna]

Some things just don't match up in the film, do they?

When I first saw those long whistles, I mentally blasted the trainers' lack of professionalism for eating lollipops in the pool.

This tells you how much I know.

In a perfect world, we'd all see them from boats as they swam in the ocean, but to be honest, I was initially frightened when I saw them in ocean.

[bkroz]

The documentary's main point waffles. I don't think it intends its core message to be that SeaWorld is evil because, in fact, SeaWorld's habitats and care for its menagerie of creatures certainly meets and often exceeds standards set by the AZA. That's why they didn't touch on the rest of the animals, really.

What they're attempting to convey, it seems, is that killer whales in particular should not be held captive because they're too intelligent and too emotionally self-and-group aware to lead fulfilling lives in a false environment the way a seal or an otter can. Here and there they touch on forcing animals to perform, but again only really in the context of killer whales. It seems that their intent is not to poopoo on SeaWorld, but to poopoo on any place that holds these intelligent whales captive... SeaWorld just so happens to be the face of it.

So it's a muddled message that screams "anti-SeaWorld" when I don't think that's constructive or even what they really intended.

[upstop]

Strangely enough, I wouldn't have wasted my money to see any of the musicians that were in the concert series anyway. Based on the list, I would imagine that most of them signed up possibly knowing there would be a protest coming where they could back out of to show support, or just to prove a point. Plus quite a few musicians are activists, who like stirring the crap. Plus, I'm wagering that most of the "petition" signers had no intention of going to the park either....just more crap stirring.

http://www.ecorazzi.com/2013/12/08/seaworld-has-no-heart-band-cancels-park-performance/

Be sure to read the replies in the article.