Guest faceoff Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 With moving x-flight to Kings Island and the rumored removal of steel venom-How many people think this is the start of the end of the ride park? What does everyone think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWildman424 Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Cedar Fair has said that they are giong to try to make GL a more family oriented park. They have also said that the fact having two roller coasters in the front of the park doesn't make it look like a family oriented park. I think that they are removing the two coasters to make it look more inviting, and make more room for family stuff. I'll try to find where I read this stuff and I'll give a link when I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastersRZ Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Right. I don`t really buy that line of thought from Cedar Fair. Why? Just look at KI, they have what is generally regarded as a good childrens area. But, they have Face Off as well as Drop Zone looming over the entrance to the park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 The press release you are looking for can be found as the first post in this thread: http://www.pkicentral.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9030 And you artfully put bad news in the best terms you can. Cozy and more intimate....means smaller. As another (I believe it was jzarley) said here recently, they could have just as easily said the piddly numbers of you who choose to attend our park do not allow us enough income to support the current infrastructure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kwindshawne Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Sounds to me like the park is on the way out..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleHenry Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 This is in the wrong section of the forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenban Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I don't think this is the end of the rides side. I think this is just an attempt at lowering the cost of the park to something in line with its attendance. I can't think of any parks with an attendance of only 750,000 that has 10 coasters. Even with the loss of X-Flight and Steel Venom it still has 8 coasters. Back in 1999 before Six Flags built 5 coasters in 2 years (4 in a single season) the park only had 5 coasters total. Kings Island has an attendance of 3.2 million and only has 13 coasters only 3 more then what Geauga Lake had which has less then a quarter of the attendance. Back when Cedar Fair purchased the Paramount parks they released figures on the annual revenue of their parks. Geauga Lake was the second lowest at $26 million (not profits total it brings in) only Michigan's Adventure brings in less. Heres the number of coasters and the revenue of all the Cedar Fair parks as of 2005 (since the revenue data was from 2005 this should be the number of coasters from 2005 a few have gained a coaster since then or are building one right now). NOTE: Please don't question the revenue its the total of all attractions in the parks area which includes hotels and separate admission water parks which is why Cedar Points and Knotts are so high (Knotts has 3 water parks) Cedar Point - $210 million (16) Knotts - $186 million (7) Dorney - $56 million (8) Valley Fair - $36 million (7) Worlds of Fun - $35 million (5) Geauga Lake - $26 million (10) Michigan's Adventure - $19 million (6) Looking at that list how does it make any sense at all that Geauga Lake has 10 coasters? They have more coasters then parks which make twice as much money or more. Plus the coasters which are being removed are VERY expensive to operate. I really think the park should only have 6 or 7 coasters total its attendance and revenue really are too low to support any more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trint2004 Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 If they are trying to make the park more family orentated in my opion they should move IJ:ST and Replace it with Steel Venom. Dont get me wrong i like IJ but i think moving to a park trying go to more family rides it would be a great idea and i would like to see Kings Island get more trills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DegenRider Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Removing steel venom and X-Flight 2 basically production coasters for a ride that had to have extensive land work done to put it in isn't exactly a great plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennywooddude Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 If they are trying to make the park more family orentated in my opion they should move IJ:ST and Replace it with Steel Venom. Dont get me wrong i like IJ but i think moving to a park trying go to more family rides it would be a great idea and i would like to see Kings Island get more trills We don't want IJ:ST. Their going to redevelop the main entrance and hopefully add some more flats to the 50's Midway. The park is not going to close or end. If it brings in a profit, why kill it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Magic words in that post: IF it brings in a profit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flightoffear1996 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 The removal of Steel Vemon isnt a rumor it was confirmed by the park that it was in fact being moved to another Cedar Fair park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennywooddude Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Magic words in that post: IF it brings in a profit... And it is. It may be in the second running for lowest brought in but its a step in a good direction from the Six Flags Era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Bombay Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 ^Uh wheres your proof that it is, the park isnt even open for the season yet, so how can you tell if its going to bring in a profit? And just which park brings in the lowest profit? I'd love to hear where you got the information. If you listen to the latest Cedar Fair stock holder conference call, Kinzel stated how they STILL werent done cutting costs at Geauga Lake...that "more must be done" to justify the parks footprint. He didnt say that about any other park in the chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennywooddude Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 MIA only brought in 19 Million why Geauga Lake brought in 26 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Bombay Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I repeat, whats your source? Even if your numbers are credible...just because it didnt bring in as much doesnt mean it performed poorly. The park obviously performed well enough for Cedar Fair to be content with it. Geauga Lake is the only one mentioned in the conference calls as their large problem. Geauga Lake is suffering the most, it is far too big for what it actually brings in, all the other parks met their goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutedarkness Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Cedar Fair is adding more to gain revenue; new games, fixing up eateries, doubling wwk cabanas, those are different ways to increase profit. Admission tickets are not the only way to gain more revenue. Source here. http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...ESS06/606200357 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Bombay Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 ^I wask asking Kennywoodude for his sources as to his revenue estimates. I didnt ask you to post an article thats already posted in the topic. Yes, we've seen it. It still doesnt change the fact GL is one of the worst performing parks wihthin the CF chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutedarkness Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Cedar Fair knows it can do better.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 No one questions whether Geauga Lake is bringing in revenue. Of course it is. To put in Cedar Fair terms, the question is what is the parks EBITDA? And it is known that Mr. Kinzel HIMSELF is not happy with Geauga Lake's EBITDA. And when Mr. Kinzel ain't happy at Cedar Fair, ain't nobody happy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Bombay Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Well thats wishful thinking, you are a seasonal employee, not anyone making a decisions as to what the park's new strategy is. As of the previous conference call, not enough has been done to justify its current and upcoming operations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 To improve EBITDA, one can increase revenues, cut costs or both. I suspect Cedar Fair is trying for both. The infrastructure costs at that park are too large to be justifiable at the moment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Bombay Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 ^Exactly, sure Cedar Fair may have faith and Cedar Fair may be trying, but so far their other strategies haven't worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenban Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 As I said when I used those figures they are from 2005. Second thats revenue not profits. We can only guess at how much the park is spending but its a big park and has a lot of expenses. Michigan's Adventure is a lot smaller park with fewer coasters, cheaper to operate coasters, a smaller water park, and fewer attractions in general. Something I assume almost everyone is forgetting about is the interest on the $145 million in debt from purchasing the park, and then you have the cost of the water park, the interest from the debt of building the new water park etc. I guess I could always look at the chains fiscal statements and try to figure out what the interest rate is and then calculate just how much the interest for just GL is but what it all comes down to is that I don't see any possible way the park is making a profit. Its amazing to think about how much Six Flags spent there and how little return of it they got back when they sold the park to Cedar Fair. Sea World was $110 million, the season they added the 4 coasters was $44 million, X-Flight was $15 million, Thunderhawk was $10 million, Head Spin would have been very cheap at $4-5 million. Thats not even counting the purchase of the park by what was then Premier parks. My best guess is that Premier/Six Flags spent around $250 million in 8 years on the park just to sell it for $145 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 And Cedar Fair was SURE they got a heck of a bargain, given what Flags' investment in the place had been. Before it is over, it may well be that Flags got the better end of the sale to Cedar Fair. That remains to be seen. Then again, if Cedar Fair ends up selling even just the dry park land for development on a lot by lot basis, they may well come out of this smelling like a rose. I hope that doesn't happen, but I am more and more thinking that it could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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