Shaggy

"I think by big wigs he means like operations managers - Jill Mohr, Kevin Eldridge, Chris Maupin - etc... " Well, I would not consider them "big wigs." They are down the ranks quite a bit. I expect we'll see changes in staffing from the High Marketing levels on up. Shaggy

I'll be interested to see if Voyage retains a top spot in years to come. Maybe, hopefully. However, it's widely known that steel-structured woodies are terribly hard to maintain from a roughness standpoint. I cite Villain at Geauga Lake and Twisted Twins as a prime examples. Terrific when they opened, but in subsequent years have become terribly painful to ride. Granted, these have Gerstlauer trains. But overall, the rigidity of a steel-structured, wooden-track coaster causes a rougher ride. Traditional woodies can bend and give to help allieviate the rigidity of the track. Steel doesn't bend too much. Shaggy

NU didn't cost as much as you think. I guarantee you that CP spent more money on Skyhawk than PKI did on NU. That's not a slap to PKI, rather it shows that PPI can be pretty crafty in budgeting tightly to overhaul an entire area. Nick is too lucrative an entity to drop. CF will keep the licensing... it's part of what sealed the deal and enticed CF in the first place. Shaggy

"The Popularity argument still doesn't explain anything. I am sure Beast had ALOT more riders than Boulder Dash or Balder at Liseberg..." Well, you have to admit that it explains quite a bit. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that actual ride quality doesn't affect the lists, I simply believe that they are flawed because there are too many things that factor into how the polls spell out... such as park popularity etc. Heck, a great coaster can drop low in the rankings based simply on whether or not there's a mean ride op that staples enthusiasts on a routine basis. Or, it can raise high in the rankings because it was a part of a very fun enthusiast event where cookies and milk were served. Bottom line, and I think we are agreed on this point, it's all subjective. Polls don't form my opinions for me. I like what I like, I dislike what I don't. Differences of opinions are what make us grow and learn, they help us look at things through other eyes. Shaggy

"The way I see it as long as our big wigs stay around we as employees will continue to love and cherish our jobs." They won't. Expect CF to overhaul all upper level management. I doubt many of the Al Webers, Tim Fishers etc will remain. Shaggy

But Shaggy, according to your own list, four of those coasters were installed at PKI first. I wasn't really referring to anything exclusive to one park. Not to mention you forgot The Bat Nope... only 2 were installed at PKI first... Drop Zone and Delirium. If you are including FOF and IJST, they were installed simultaniously with duplicate versions at other parks. I didn't forget The Bat, the list I created was of installs that occurred during the Paramount reign. The Bat, although a prototype, was installed in the KECO days, well before the Paramount takeover. Shaggy

Simple... Holiday World stopped holding enthusiast events for a few seasons. Again, enthusiasts... and guests... are fickle. Out of site, out of mind. You'll see a change this year in coaster rankings because HW has added another, and has started holding enthusiast events again. I guarantee you that not only will Voyage make a top ten list, but Raven and Legend will climb again as well. HW recognizes that. It's ridiculously apparent to me that HW is very territorial when it comes to their rankings... it's in all their ads... so when their rankings dropped in recent years, they felt the need to get enthusiasts back in their park to help their cause. Shaggy

Any coaster poll, irregardless of whether enthusiasts or average guests take it, is flawed. How so? It's based on popularity of the park, not how good all the coasters are. In order to be accurate... everyone would have to attend every park, and ride every coaster, every year. No one can do that, thus polls represent the parks most frequently attended, and usually reflect the most recently ridden coasters. For example... if I rode 20 coasters this year, I would be apt to pick a favorite out of that group. Or, if I had ridden, say, 300 coasters (I have) then I would rank my favorites according to what I have ridden. On the flip side, I have not yet made it to Michigan's Adventure to ride Shivering Timbers. It constantly ranks in the upper folds of wooden coaster polls. However because I have not ridden, I never rank it as a favorite. Thus a poll is based on familiarity with rides/parks... not the overall quality of every single coaster. If Castles and Coasters in Arizona put in the world's best Wooden Out and Back, do you think it would become #1? Nope... because it's hardly a park that people (enthusiasts or regular guests) seek to attend on a recurring basis. Shaggy

Well, I think prototypes have been pretty evenly spread among the Paramount Parks through the years. These could all be considered prototypes IMO... Hypersonic Stealth Volcano Delirium Drop Zone Italian Job FOF Invertigo I am sure there are a few more, but out of that list, only 2 were installed only at PKI as "originals." Shaggy

If you are thinking coaster... nope. PP Reps have expressed numerous times in the past several seasons that the parks were pursuing attractions that were family focused. Look at recent installs.... waterparks, kids rides, dark rides. That spells a trend... and easily exhemplifies that large thrill ride installs are not their main focus. Shaggy

"First off, the one that was slated for PKI was the one from PGA that was stealth. Second, I hope PKI does not get a similar ride because the fact is it is not that good of a ride." Well, kind-a-sort-a. X Flight (Vekoma Flying Dutchman) located at Geauga Lake was slated originally for PKI. The actual story is.... Al Webber contracted Vekoma to produce a prototype coaster for Paramount Parks that would be a "technical marvel." PPI and Vekoma partnered the cost of development, and PPD&E retained the right of refusal for future installs of the ride. The original was "Stealth" installed at PGA. Now, There's a floating rumor that states "Stealth" was originally set to be installed at PKI. The rumor also exists that Tim Fisher (GM of PKI at the time) nixed the idea completely. Now, Stealth opened at PGA in 2000, at the same time that SOB was being designed/constructed/installed/opened... so facts sort of contradict this idea. Stealth opened with numerous technical issues and problems. One could summize that the reason it went to PGA in the first place was likely due to the fact that because it was a prototype. It made better sense to install it at a lesser attended park and work out the kinks, prior to installing at their largest park. Actually, there were two other Flying Dutchmans already being manufactured when Stealth opened. One for PKI, the other for PKD. Because of severe downtime, and costly repair, PPI decided to opt out of the 2 future installs and opened the rights to other park chains to invest in the ride type. Thus the two other models ended up at neighboring parks. SFO (Six Flags Ohio... which became Six Flags Worlds of Adventure and then became Geauga Lake... again...) got X Flight and SFA (Six Flags America) got Batwing. Those have been plagued with problems as well. Intially, PKI's was slated to take the place of King Cobra. PKD's was to take the place of Shockwave. King Cobra survived a few more seasons before being removed altogether, and PKD's Shockwave still stands. Following the debacle of the Stealth install at PGA, PPI officials decided to move the next install, Hypersonic XLC to PKD. (Hypersonic was intially supposed to be installed at PGA for the 2001 season.) This allowed them to add another prototype ride (Al Webber is ridiculously keen on "prototype" rides... sheesh!) yet to install it in a park that wasn't already home to a problem-plagued coaster. PGA went as far as to advertise the ride initially in park, and then quickly yanked all ads and references to it when the decision was made to install the S&S coaster at PKD. Stealth had such a horrible reputation at PGA, and was placed so poorly in the park, that a few years back the decision was made to remove and relocate the coaster. That was to be the start to a "new" ride relocation program among Paramount Parks. The ride was then removed, relocated and re-assembled at Paramount's Carowinds where, although it experiences downtime, has a pretty good reputation. Stealth lasted a mere 3 years at PGA, where... rumor has it.. it experienced over a 50% downtime. The Carowinds install came on the heels of an install of the first ever B&M Flying Coaster at neighboring Six Flags Over Georgia. The coaster at SFOG was immensely successful, and had minimal downtime thanks, in large part, to B&M's keen ability to take an idea such as Stealth, and perfect it in the most simplistic of ways. Ironically, the cost of relocating to and re-assembling Stealth at PCow, was nearly the cost of an original install. It's not exactly an inexpensive option to reloacte rides from park to park. It's often treated just like a new install and must be budgeted appropriately. Also, transferring product from one property to another can often involve property taxes... so I am amazed that they went this route rather than scrapping it. But then SF parks did a rotational program for years with their rides. I think the infamous Flashback has had 4 or 5 locations through the years. However, from there, other rides began the ride "rotation" program. Flying Eagles at PKI were next up and other rides at various parks have been "shelved" for possible future relocations... the Looping Starship at PCow, the Sea Dragon and Monster at PCW. Heck, they are even hanging onto Scooby's Ghoster Coaster for some God-forsaken reason. Most interesting is the saga of FOF. With the parks now transitioning to CF ownership, it will be interesting to see if the plans for these attractions will change. I don't think I am breaking any eggs when I now reveal that the PKD version of FOF was to be removed and relocated to PCW in a future season. Based on that success, the PKI version would have probably followed suit with a relocation to PCow. If the relocation of PKD's was slated for next season at PCW, then we may still see it. However, I doubt we'll now see PKI's relcoated any time soon. PKD's FOF is, at present, SBNO. Shaggy

"Wood coasters are just not meant to go that high and fast...we need steel!" I disagree... wood coasters are just not meant to go around and around. The rough parts of SOB are the turns. Had this been an out and back, then the roughness would likely be a non issue. Heard any roughness complaints about HW's newbie? Shaggy

"OH, but they are broke my friend!!! How can you say that when we only have 2 shows this year?!?! I bet we will see some huge coasters in the next few years!" How can I say that? Well, the parks all made a profit last year. Actually PCW rose to be the highest attended seasonal theme park last season. You are using an enthusiast mindset. By broke you think "they don't have a 300 foot coaster" or "their shows suck." That is not a business sensibility. I personally think the days of mega coasters are essentially at a standstill. CF and SF have all seen a decline in attendance of late even in years with large installs. So I don't expect a coaster of Millenium Force proportions at PKI any time soon. PKI attendance is already far exceededing predictions for the season, and they simply added what many around here refer to as "carnie rides." They have constantly seen growth in years where they re-branded areas or attractions with a family friendly focus. CF has not. CF continually follows the trend of investing in mega installs that require years of revenue to compensate. When a company such as CF buys controlling interest in another highly successful chain, that means they are interested in not only the product that the park is offering, but their overall ability to succeed in a market. They want to expand their interest in the industry by investing in properties that have proven themselves successful and have a good game plan. They don't always plan on overhauling the new properties, sometimes they actually are interested in investing in order to use their proven methods within their own corporate structure. It's a blending of the two, not an abandonment of one. The interest that CF has in the Paramount Chain makes perfect sense to me. It is the opposite situation from the Geauga Lake turnover. Shaggy

I am baffled by all the "CF will start changing/improving things" posts. Bottom line, Paramount Parks are profitable, and run very well. Cedar Fair was interested in them because they are desirable business to aquire. I don't expect them to drastically change things. Except probably removing upper level management, and dropping some licensing rights, the parks will likely remain in-tact. After all, they're not broke, so why try and fix them? Shaggy

CF is interested in more of the PPI parks than just PKI... however, they are not interested in one specific PPI park. Shaggy

It's easy for those involved in the business world to see what is going on. PPI is attempting to cut operating costs, streamline budgets and staffing, as well as increase profitability. No doubt to look appealing to potential buyers. Must have worked since there seems to be a forthcoming announcement. In terms of Nick Universe being full of "carnie rides" well, didn't they only add three new ones? One is a Frog Hopper that is permanently installed, one is Avatar, which is a permanent install, and the other is the Zamperla Kite Flyer which is also permanently installed. Other than those three, all other rides existed before, and no one called them "carnie" rides prior TMK. Hmmm, terrible isn't it? Well maybe to the novice. But early insider reports are that attendance is already way up at PKI for the season. Now, Imagine a PKI without "Paramount." Imagine it without Tomb Raider. Imagine it without Paramount Action FX Theatre, or Days of Thunder, or Top Gun, or Congo Falls, or Face/Off, or Paramount Theatre, or Italian Job, or... well, you get the idea. Now fold your arms and *blink.* Poof... your wish just came true. Shaggy

I heard Paramount Parks will be sold to a competitor, with all current management being terminated. Let's see who's rumor comes true first. ;-)

There was a thread on this site sometime ago where I posted a long write up detailing the infamous "Cincinnati Kids" episode. I think the thread was called "Brady Bunch at Kings Island." You may wish to check it out. BTW, in that post, I explained that the editors of the show accidentally "reversed" the film causing a mirror image of The Racer. Regarding The Racer's old entrance... well, really the entrance is still the same today as when it opened (With the exception of different signage.) The real difference is the exit. Racer used to exit to the right of the queue house. Currently it exits to the left of it. The ramp spilled out onto Coney Mall right next to the seating area for the "Sweet Tooth" cotton candy stall (Which currently is Subway.) I believe that when Tumble Bug was removed, and Skylab Installed, the exit was re-configured. Also, in a clip of the Brady episode, you can see an overhead shot of The Racer that shows the old final bunny hop that no longer exists on the coaster. Perhaps one of the download pics includes it. Not sure as I haven't looked at them. Shaggy

Six Flags broadcast that it was for sale... and no one bought... thus they are "restructuring." I think this is exactly what PP will do. Clear Channel recently spun off it's entire Entertainment Division (now called Live Nation) with the intent of selling. So far, no interested parties. Shaggy

Experience, a little bit of insider info, and as I said... a lot of guessing ;-) Shaggy

Here's my guesses about the future of PKI... remember they are my GUESSES... - I highly doubt anyone has bought, or will buy it in the near future. The Entertainment Field (Including all forms of Arts and Amusements) is hurting terribly right now. Not many investors would be anxious to buy into a product that has seen losses and decreases over the years. - Winterfest will return. - Admission prices will increase ala Six Flags and Cedar Fair. - Rides will likely operate on a limited basis. Meaning the park will likely only operate main attractions until the heart of the season arrives...even more dramatically than they have in the past. - Entertainment budgets will be cut yet again. - A ride rotation program will likely gain momentum. Expect to see major attractions at Paramount Parks continue to shift around. - The overall general esthetic upkeep that we have seen blossoming in the recent past will likely come to a screeching halt. I would expect that rides will not get new, fresh paint jobs like they have been. - Themeing elements will continue to decline, if operate at all. I would not be at all suprised to see attractions like TR operate without the theming turned on at all. I hate to forsee things like this, and I sure hope I am wrong, but I feel it coming. Having been in the industry myself for over 10 years, I know that right now things are really bad. Downsizing (in all areas) is now the norm. Let's hope our economy improves, so that the state of affairs improves among those that provide us with our fun. Shaggy

I think you are right. I am not that familiar with the parks or their histories... although I have visited Dollywood, SDC and Celebration City... I've not yet had the chance to visit Fiesta Texas, and I missed Opryland by 1 year. Shaggy

Re: Busch... No doubt Bush Gardens parks are meticulously maintained, and their attention to detail is commendable. However Busch is a unique entity. The Amusement Parks are HIGHLY funded by the companies outside beer sales. You can bet that sales of their product play a factor in the amount of money that gets sunk into the parks. After all, Busch parks were built and exist for one simple reason... they soften the image of the Alcohol Distributing conglomorate. Much like Hershey, the parks began as a sort of "outlet" for the employees of the factories (Now defunct CA Bush park) and over time developed and expanded due to their ability to help promote the product, but in a family friendly way. Re: Dollywood and SDC... Weren't they, at one time, owned by the same company that owned Fiesta Texas? If so, they sold off that property years ago. The thought of SDC taking over Paramount Parks is not a bad one, but like someone else said.. I'd not count on it. Shaggy

"The private investor whould take most of the money the park made and invest it back into the park. The way it is now alot of the other parks build stuff from the profit of PKI. " Incorrect. Each park currently submits a yearly capitol expenditure budget based on their needs and their desires for the park. PP then decides how much of that capitol budget they are granted based on that park's prior performance. Using your theory, the park that made the most footed the bills for the other parks... PKI did not make the most last year, so do you think PCW is paying for NU next year? Nah. If an independant owner would invest in the parks, the investor would likely not sink the same amount of capitol into the park as VIACOM currently does. Paramount Parks has seen a decrease in attendance and revenue. A new publicly traded company would likely avoid immediate costly capitol expenditures in order to lure more investors and increase interest in their profitibility margin. Looking back to when Paramount first took controlling interest.... the first year at PKI saw the addition of Top Gun, which was already purchased and in development by the prior owners. The first full year of Paramount ownership, the park saw only the installation of Days of Thunder in the Action FX Theatre. Bottom line, double... even triple... sometimes quadruple... the amount of capitol was sunk into KI during VIACOM/Paramount years than during any years under previous ownership. Why else would they want out of the business? Their revenue is down, and yet they have set a precident of spending millions in yearly improvements. Thus they want out. Shaggy

The truth is... if an independant were to buy the park chain, then there would likely be LESS capitol spent on new product than there has been under the VIACOM branding. VIACOM/Paramount sinks millions and millions into those parks every year. A new investor would likely discourage such spending. Shaggy