Geauga Lake Eyed For Big Box Sprawl

[The Interpreter]

http://www.chagrinvalleytimes.com/NC/0/318.html

[tigellinus]

^^But with what consumer spending to support it?!?

[CoastersRZ]

Not like this is a greenfield site or anything, but Big Box retail developments are some of the worst developments in terms of their impact on the local ecology, and typically do not add much, if anything to the architecture and context of the local community. Ie, one Kroger in the Cleveland area is bound to look eerily similar to a similar Kroger in the Cincinnati area. I spent a whole studio last year looking at the negative impacts that big box stores have on communities, and ways in which some retailers are trying to successfully integrate into the community and build green big box stores.

Ok, I`ll get off of my architectural soap box now and return you to the regularly scheduled topic.

[tigellinus]

^^So since you're technologically knowledgeable...can you explain the purpose behind retention ponds??

I just need to some knowledge dropped on me!!

[CoastersRZ]

Retention ponds retain water and have water in them normally. During rain storms, the water level rises from the runoff from the parking lots. This water is then fed into the sewer system or a stream after the rain event has occurred when there is more capacity available to handle all the water. Detention ponds serve a similar purpose, except for the fact that they are dry and do not retain water. They simply hold water until after the rain event has passed.

Storm water run off of parking lots contains lots of nasty chemicals and oils from cars. Instead of dumping this polluted water directly into stream or river, this water can be treated by plants in areas called bioswales. These plants both slow down the rate of the moving water and remove the pollutants from the water. After being treated in bioswales, the water is significantly cleaner, has a lot less volume and can be safely discharged into creeks and streams. There is no need to dump the water into the sewage system to treat the water. This reduces the demand on the sewage treatment plants.

When you think of the area of impermeable surfaces in parking lots (take Kings Island`s for example, which has more than 10,000 parking spaces) an inch rain fall can generate an immense amount of run off because the water cannot penetrate the impermeable surfaces. However, there are things called permeable concrete and asphalt. These two materials have special blends that allow water to pass directly through them, thus reducing the amount of storm water run off. However, these methods are more expensive and not ideal in all locals. For instance, around here the soil contains a lot of clay, which itself acts as an impermeable surface, preventing water from returning to the natural water table. So around here, in order for permeable pavements to be successful, often several feet of this clay has to be removed and replaced with well draining soils, such as sands, which adds to the cost. Furthermore, permeable pavements cannot accept all the same snow treatments like salt and snow plows that typical pavements can achieve. So there are some issues to be resolved still with this relatively new technology.

The below image, from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, shows an area of impermeable, typical asphalt during a rainstorm in the lower right side of the image. The upper portion of the image shows permeable asphalt. Notice the difference?

Ask, and you shall receive! Is that enough information for you?

[The Interpreter]

I also strongly suspect that if the Kings Island parking lot, for example, or the one at Tri-County Mall, for another, were to be built again today, costly measures to held reduce such pollution that are not in the lots that were built so many years ago would now be required. Also, believe it or not, environmental laws in many locations now limit the size of parking lots in order to help combat pollution, and regulations often require planting of trees, offset wildlife conservation easements in other locations to offset the parking lot, etc.

[tigellinus]

Wow, CoastersRZ, that was impressive!! How could anyone NOT hire you?! Thanks again for the knowledge!!

So sort of along those same lines, my dad has done some home building/designing as a hobby (and did a lot of work in the Indianapolis area in the housing boom circa 2002-2005), but one of the things he always claimed was this:

If you constructed roads that were 6 feet deep into the ground they would last a lot longer, have less pot holes, and be way more durable since shorter depth roads are very sensitive to temperature and climate changes. Since 6 feet deep the temperature is always the same (i.e. burying someone "6 feet under"), the road would then be significantly less suspectible to temperature and climate changes and conditions.

However, because the transportation department is a huge employment provider, he theorizes that roads are not built 6 feet deep since longer lasting roads prevents more jobs. But my question is, is there any validity in what my dad says or not??

Thanks again for the knowledge!! (if anything, you should at least get a job teaching this stuff!)

[The Interpreter]

And on that note (also posted under separate head for those interested who might miss this one):

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_articl...833&catid=3

[The Interpreter]

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/11...hopping_ce.html

[The Interpreter]

http://www.hudsonhubtimes.com/news/article/4468878

[Racerrider]

I don't think that Geauga County will let Jacobs' "big box" plan go through for many reasons,

first of all there are already a TON of shoping centers going up in Baindridge and they don't want to have the same problem they have in Chardon when stores open and close and move around and then there are a ton of empty Giant Eagles and Targets

Second the local area wants to see another chain such as Paramount or Bucsh (re)invest in the land, but not overexplode it like 6F did when they purchased the GL property and added 4 coasters and almost 10 flat rides for 1 season.

Third Jacobs has been known to sell off his properties (Jacobs Center-Key Tower and Jacobs Field-Progressive Field) [i dont know if this would be a problem though]

[RailRider]

Second the local area wants to see another chain such as Paramount or Bucsh (re)invest in the land, but not overexplode it like 6F did when they purchased the GL property and added 4 coasters and almost 10 flat rides for 1 season.

Why in the world would another park chain buy the land? GL is gone and no park or chain has the resources, capital or could receive the financing to build a new park in the same location where one use to sit.

Secondly why would Busch whose future and ownership is in doubt build a park on land they use to own? Remember they sold Sea World to Six Flags. Then there is Paramount who sold all of their parks to Cedar Fair. I dont see them deciding to get back in the park business and compete against Cedar Fair on their home turf. Not happening. If the locals wanted a park so bad they should have supported the one that was there.

The best use for that land is housing and big box sprawl. I am sure that is what will eventually happen.

[CoastersRZ]

Well, technically, it was CBS that sold the Paramount Parks, not Paramount itself, nor Viacom. Paramount Parks became part of the slow growth division when CBS and Viacom split several years ago. Paramount Pictures was under the Viacom umbrella and Paramount Parks, because of the slow growth nature of the amusement park business, under the direction of CBS.

If none of the major operators were willing to even buy the Hard Rock Park for $35 million at auction, there certainly won`t be any interest in buying a piece of land where there used to be an amusement park. With the large amount of money that was invested in the Hard Rock Park, for it to only last a year does not bode well for any potential new parks to be built in the United States anytime soon.

As Railrider said, ultimately, the former GL property will likely be developed as some sort of commercial big box development, or a mixed use development that contains some specialty stores, one or two big box stores and some office spaces and residential units all in the same development. With the state of the current economy, it could be a while before any of these developments take shape, but if the GL property is prime real estate, it will eventually be developed in some form or another.

[Thrill_Biscuit]

Shades of Opryland USA . I'm impressed with the knowledge and tone of the posts I read on this site. People don't just throw conjecture around. It's always sound, with facts and principles to back up what is said. I'm glad that the talented architects that are entering the work force are doing so with a balanced understanding of commercial and environmental needs.

[RailRider]

Jacobs Group decides not to develop park's 30 acres

Aurora Advocate

[Outdoor Man]

It is really sad what happened to GL. First Six Flags over develops the park to a point that it can't cash flow, the CF buys, parcels it out, then closes it. Unfortunately when they removed the Wild Life side of the park- it was just another small park trying to compete with other larger and established places. I mean, what successful park doesn't have a ride/water park. But the Wildlife side gave them something that none of the others had.

There is another blog site dedicated to GL, which some of you may have seen/been on that they think it has always been a Dick Kinzel conspiracy to close the park. I can't find that real plausible. You don't spend millions of dollars of investors money on personal agendas. I just think that the loss of the wildlife side killed it and CF knew that you can't take a "thrill park" and bring it back down to "family park" without alienating too many of your core attenders, and figured- if we can't make it successful on our terms, no one is. Some wonder why they wouldn't sell it to Busch or another amusement company; two reasons... other companies saw the same thing in it's downside potential in year 5 of an economic expansion and why would they want to sell to another company who might make it successful and cut into their bottom line.

It sucks that they closed a once great park- but I completely understand the reasoning. Plus, they then had a number of virtually new rides and coasters to part out to their number of parks to keep "new" rides coming in a down economy.

NOW, as a side note. I wonder how long it will be before we see parks contracting. As in, a new ride comes- but an old ride leaves... or two. Personnel costs will cause this to happen. Minimum wage changes in a few hours here in Ohio. $0.33 an hour may not seem like much, but as an employer myself- we are going to have to offset that by reducing an employee to cover the loss.

[RailRider]

^

Ive got to agree. I remember visiting GL when it was Six Flags Worlds of Adventure. Man was it impressive, especially with the poetential the park had. Then like many things Six Flags didn't follow through, the opperations went to crap and they sold and ran.

Thankfully many of the rides have been able to live on and I hope the water park continues to opperate.

[Racerrider]

Second the local area wants to see another chain such as Paramount or Bucsh (re)invest in the land, but not overexplode it like 6F did when they purchased the GL property and added 4 coasters and almost 10 flat rides for 1 season.

Why in the world would another park chain buy the land? GL is gone and no park or chain has the resources, capital or could receive the financing to build a new park in the same location where one use to sit.

Secondly why would Busch whose future and ownership is in doubt build a park on land they use to own? Remember they sold Sea World to Six Flags. Then there is Paramount who sold all of their parks to Cedar Fair. I dont see them deciding to get back in the park business and compete against Cedar Fair on their home turf. Not happening. If the locals wanted a park so bad they should have supported the one that was there.

The best use for that land is housing and big box sprawl. I am sure that is what will eventually happen.

I was talking about what SECleveland Residents wanted, not the park corporations, and paramount did NOT SELL ALL of their parks to CF, they have a 5-year managment contract with paramount for Gilroy Gardens

[RailRider]

I was talking about what SECleveland Residents wanted, not the park corporations, and paramount did NOT SELL ALL of their parks to CF, they have a 5-year managment contract with paramount for Gilroy Gardens

You might want to check your facts. Paramount/Viacom never owned Gilroy Gardens, they managed it. Cedar Fair in the acquisition of Paramount also took over management of the park. The park is actually owned by the city of Gilroy with final bond purchase happening some time in 2010. Do a forum search and you will find numerous topics about Gilroy Gardens.

Also of if the residents in the area wanted a park they should have visited the one they had, but since they didn't, well we all know what happend.

[CoastersRZ]

And if you`ve followed the Gilroy Gardens saga at all, you would know a little bit more about the situation. Cedar Fair`s management contract of Gilroy Gardens was set to expire in February of 2009. But at the end of October, the park`s board of directors decided to continue the management contract with Cedar Fair Entertainment Co. for another two years, effective through February of 2011. Back in October, there was a proposal from some South Korean investors to buy Gilroy Gardens (originally named Bonfante Gardens), but they have since withdrawn their offer.

[westcoaster]

1) it happened to opry land too!!!

2) yes rides will have to go away so new rides can come in , or cost to get in parks will go up and Season passes:

3) will the water park survive at the LAKE???

4) could this ever and I hope not to Kings Island, or other big parks???to where the land is worth so much??over keeping up a park??/

[CoastersRZ]

Well there are many circumstances where land values caused the park to be worth more as real estate as opposed to be operated as an amusement park. Six Flags Astroworld comes immediately to mind. Not to mention the fact that Elitch Gardens was moved to a new location in the mid 90`s.

Never say never, as nothing is ever guaranteed. It is highly unlikely that Kings Island will suffer the same fate as Geauga Lake, but there is always that slim chance of uncertainty with everything.

[flightoffear1996]

I went to GL 1 year before it closed and it sucked. Even with X-Flight and Steel Venom there it still probaly. sucked. I was done riding everything in 3 horus on a Saturday.

[tigellinus]

^^Don't go to Dorney Park then!!!

[The Interpreter]

Why not?

Terpy, fan of Steel Force...who has spent many, many happy, fun-filled days at Dorney Park...

[tigellinus]

^^Because the person seemed bored with getting through all of GL's coasters and rides in 3 hours, and depending on the day at Dorney, you could do everything thrice in 3 hours!!

I love Dorney too, but that person insinuated no lines and getting through coasters equaled boredom, but Dorney=no lines and getting through coasters!!

[The Interpreter]

Well, if that person wants a park that almost never can be done in three hours and is almost never, ever devoid of lines, that person needs to pursue a great adventure! Boredom problem solved...even with a Flash Pass!

[IBEW_Sparky]

Wait a minute, did I just correctly read that its a BAD thing to be able to ride ALL the rides you wish in less than 3 hours???? I would LOVE to be able o go to KI and ride FOF, Firehawk (once), Vortex, Beast, BLSC and DB in less than 3 hours!!!!!!!! Oh wait a minute, I did (except DB obviously) last year during a weekday in August and I LOVED IT!! Lets see, wait in 6 hours worth of lines to ride approx. 20 minutes worth of rides.... OOOORRRR... ride rides I really enjoy 2,3, or more times in a row in 3 hours time. Sorry, thats a no-brainer to someone who is NOT well suited to large large crowds. I pay my $150 for a Platinum Pass to ride rides, not wait in line for hours with a bunch of basketball bouncers. I understand there must be attendance to maintain a parks viability, but there is definitely an equal balance of fun to wait ratio and if we could all have a full weekend day of walk on rides at KI as opposed to 3 hours for Maverick at CP we would all, without exception, JUMP at the chance.

[The Interpreter]

Well, apparently all of us but flightoffear1996...then again, perhaps he meant something else by his comment that "it sucked." To be fair, his "it sucked" comment really doesn't tell us much of anything at all. Because his only more specific comment was that he rode everything in three hours (which I suspect means he rode everything he WANTED to ride in three hours), we have assumed that is the reason it sucked. Perhaps it was not.

Really, if you want to tell us something was bad, fine. But please do tell us how it was bad...for an example, see the recent, excellent trip report on a trip to The Beach's Holiday Fest:

http://www.KICentral.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15880

Very clear description of the trip...and how it differed from expectations.

[XGatorHead 8904]

^Why, thanks for the compliment, Terpy. I always worry that I get a little long-winded in my TR's, but I like to paint a clear picture for the members, lurkers and casual visitors of this site.

-Gator, who wishes he had visited GL when he had the chance while he was in Aurora for a wedding just down the street from the park 3 years ago, and who is hoping for a trip to Dorney and other PA parks this summer unless we decide to go to Houston instead and make a side trip to Schlitterbahn. (Wow, talk about long-winded...)