Racerrider Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 This is kinda scary, but its a huge possibility, especialy if Dayton and Cincinnat's unemployment rate go through the roof EDIT: The poll box disapeared Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windshawne Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 They'll survive-but things are going to be very rough for everyone for the next year or so. The high food prices dont help with internal sales..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kittenpooh Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I think they will do fine. I just hope they don't start to hurt and have to raise ticket prices. I know the price of tickets now are hard for some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 The current game plan seems to be to discount the gate and raise food, game and merchandise prices inside the parks...this is the game plan at both Cedar Fair and Six Flags. So far, admissions have stayed pretty stable to slightly up, while the per caps are down only slightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kittenpooh Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 The current game plan seems to be to discount the gate and raise food, game and merchandise prices inside the parks...this is the game plan at both Cedar Fair and Six Flags. So far, admissions have stayed pretty stable to slightly up, while the per caps are down only slightly. And that is why I pack a cooler and eat in the parking lot... I dont ever play the games. I just love the rides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastersRZ Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Well it will be interesting to see how the 2009 season unfolds, that is for sure. It is also a scary time to be graduating from grad school and looking for an architectural full time job! But that is a whole other story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollerNut Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 The current game plan seems to be to discount the gate and raise food, game and merchandise prices inside the parks...this is the game plan at both Cedar Fair and Six Flags. So far, admissions have stayed pretty stable to slightly up, while the per caps are down only slightly. It seems to me that a discounted admission and buyer's surplus on per caps would increase per caps spending inside of the parks while possibly increasing admissions demand by making a trip more affordable and keeping guests on property. That is my 2 cents, or maybe 1.5 depending on how look look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coney Islander Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Think about it. If Cedar Fair was worried about KI's profit, why would they be making a HUGE investment in 2009? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastersRZ Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Amusement parks are a capital intensive venture. In order to secure repeat visitors to keep money coming in, parks have to continue to invest in the parks to give the locals a reason to continue to come back year after year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outdoor Man Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 also- CF likely made the investment in Diamondback well before the economy tanked. This is a scary time- but also a VERY opportunistic time. the seeds of the next "bull-run" are always sown at this time..... I'm very "glass-is-half-full." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racerrider Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 well i like that everyone is optimistic, but i really didn't expect so many people to think we will survive by a long shot, i don't know if anyone on here lives in the immediate dayton area, because things are really turning bad in West Carollton City and Moraine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 They survived possibly a worse one in the late 70's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 What? With all due respect, I was alive and kicking then, and quite cognizant. NOTHING in my lifetime compares to the current economic malaise. Not even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racerrider Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 And by "they" you mean who? If you're talking about Dayton like i just mentioned you're mistaking, Delco/Delphi was at there high point back then till GM spun them off in the late '90's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windshawne Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 well i like that everyone is optimistic, but i really didn't expect so many people to think we will survive by a long shot, i don't know if anyone on here lives in the immediate dayton area, because things are really turning bad in West Carollton City and Moraine And that's why I left last month. The place I lived had a mugging, and my car was hit twice. I didnt feel safe where I lived, plus what is there to stay for? I sold my house for the same reason. I dont think anyone realizes how bad it is in dayton. As for the current economy, I agree with Terpy-I dont remember it being this bad then. I'm just gonna sit tight and wait it out-and when things get bad here, I'll move again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racerrider Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 well i like that everyone is optimistic, but i really didn't expect so many people to think we will survive by a long shot, i don't know if anyone on here lives in the immediate dayton area, because things are really turning bad in West Carollton City and Moraine And that's why I left last month. The place I lived had a mugging, and my car was hit twice. I didnt feel safe where I lived, plus what is there to stay for? I sold my house for the same reason. I dont think anyone realizes how bad it is in dayton. As for the current economy, I agree with Terpy-I dont remember it being this bad then. I'm just gonna sit tight and wait it out-and when things get bad here, I'll move again. weird, last year my fathers car was attacked, and i live in an upper-class neighborhood where houses normaly go for more than half-a-million and HOA fees are about $750. things truely are getting bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windshawne Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 well i like that everyone is optimistic, but i really didn't expect so many people to think we will survive by a long shot, i don't know if anyone on here lives in the immediate dayton area, because things are really turning bad in West Carollton City and Moraine And that's why I left last month. The place I lived had a mugging, and my car was hit twice. I didnt feel safe where I lived, plus what is there to stay for? I sold my house for the same reason. I dont think anyone realizes how bad it is in dayton. As for the current economy, I agree with Terpy-I dont remember it being this bad then. I'm just gonna sit tight and wait it out-and when things get bad here, I'll move again. weird, last year my fathers car was attacked, and i live in an upper-class neighborhood where houses normaly go for more than half-a-million and HOA fees are about $750. things truely are getting bad It wasnt like that when I first moved to that place..and I was right by the association building-mostly kids racing in the lot, but we did have some suspicious folks walking around. But with frickers being burned down, gm closed, and everything else, its gonna get worse before it gets better. The first time my car got hit, my neighbor got in a shouting match with the offender and told him to stay put, but by the time I got out there he was gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racerrider Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 well i like that everyone is optimistic, but i really didn't expect so many people to think we will survive by a long shot, i don't know if anyone on here lives in the immediate dayton area, because things are really turning bad in West Carollton City and Moraine And that's why I left last month. The place I lived had a mugging, and my car was hit twice. I didnt feel safe where I lived, plus what is there to stay for? I sold my house for the same reason. I dont think anyone realizes how bad it is in dayton. As for the current economy, I agree with Terpy-I dont remember it being this bad then. I'm just gonna sit tight and wait it out-and when things get bad here, I'll move again. weird, last year my fathers car was attacked, and i live in an upper-class neighborhood where houses normaly go for more than half-a-million and HOA fees are about $750. things truely are getting bad It wasnt like that when I first moved to that place..and I was right by the association building-mostly kids racing in the lot, but we did have some suspicious folks walking around. But with frickers being burned down, gm closed, and everything else, its gonna get worse before it gets better. The first time my car get hit, my neighbor got in a shouting match with the offender and told him to stay put, but by the time I got out there he was gone. wow thats horrible, was it in the moraine area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki Man Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Kings Island is clearly doomed. That's why they just dropped tens of millions of dollars on a new coaster for a failing park that's underpopulated and overpriced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Kings Island is clearly doomed. That's why they just dropped tens of millions of dollars on a new coaster for a failing park that's underpopulated and overpriced. Are you Gary Story? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel_SoB_fan Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 This is a worst recession since the Great Depression Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyGuy4KI Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Kings Island is clearly doomed. That's why they just dropped tens of millions of dollars on a new coaster for a failing park that's underpopulated and overpriced. Agreed, I don't think CF would have invested money in the parks this year if they did not think they would get a return for their investment over the next few years, even in these hard times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windshawne Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 well i like that everyone is optimistic, but i really didn't expect so many people to think we will survive by a long shot, i don't know if anyone on here lives in the immediate dayton area, because things are really turning bad in West Carollton City and Moraine And that's why I left last month. The place I lived had a mugging, and my car was hit twice. I didnt feel safe where I lived, plus what is there to stay for? I sold my house for the same reason. I dont think anyone realizes how bad it is in dayton. As for the current economy, I agree with Terpy-I dont remember it being this bad then. I'm just gonna sit tight and wait it out-and when things get bad here, I'll move again. weird, last year my fathers car was attacked, and i live in an upper-class neighborhood where houses normaly go for more than half-a-million and HOA fees are about $750. things truely are getting bad It wasnt like that when I first moved to that place..and I was right by the association building-mostly kids racing in the lot, but we did have some suspicious folks walking around. But with frickers being burned down, gm closed, and everything else, its gonna get worse before it gets better. The first time my car get hit, my neighbor got in a shouting match with the offender and told him to stay put, but by the time I got out there he was gone. wow thats horrible, was it in the moraine area? Surprisingly, it was the 'burg. Just goes to show no one is immune when times are bad. I left dayton just in time..my old job location is preparing for a round of layoffs in about 2 weeks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Picard Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Kings Island is clearly doomed. That's why they just dropped tens of millions of dollars on a new coaster for a failing park that's underpopulated and overpriced. Agreed, I don't think CF would have invested money in the parks this year if they did not think they would get a return for their investment over the next few years, even in these hard times. I agree, just like Six Flags did in Ohio. I don't think they would have invested money in that park if they did not think they would get a return for their investment. I don't think CF would have invested money in that same park if they did not think they would get a return for their investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 And conversely, in this economy and in the face of Cedar Fair's debt levels, it is putting more than a third of its entire capital budget into Kings Island. 17 parks. $62 million dollars. And more than a third of that is going to Kings Island. The other 16 parks share less than 2/3 of the total. Take out Prowler at Worlds of Fun and Carolina Cyclone at Carowinds, and most Cedar Fair parks are getting minimal capital investment this year. Times are tough. Very tough. Debt levels are high. The Kinzel team must play its cards exactly right. If not, and to some extent even if they do, it is only a matter of time until they could face the same situation that Six Flags faced/faces today. That situation started out with overexpansion to too many parks with too much leverage (debt). Ironically, it ended for the Gary Storys of the world, with Six Flags Great Adventure getting the lion's share of capital investment for the last two years of his reign, with grand plans to turn the park into a WDW type resort, with on site hotel(s), grand theming and excellent guest service. It was not to be, and the new owners have been unwilling/unable to carry out those plans. Predictions are hard, especially when they are about the future. Diamondback is a huge endorsement for the future of Kings Island. It truly is and will be, as was said during the last conference call, "The King of the Hills." And I happen to think Kings Island, under whoever's tutelage, faces a bright, shining future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Picard Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Talk about money that has be put into parks and then look at how much has been lost. Take the money that Six Flags and Cedar Fair put in the Ohio Park and now Hard Rock Park. I think we can add Wild Escape to that list to. Take all that money and you could buy a park chain today with it. You could build a Universal IOA with that kind of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Ironically, for many, many years Cedar Fair was known for its very conservative operating philosophies...don't borrow unnecessary money, expand slowly, pay out high dividends, watch the costs like a hawk. And then...they suddenly started borrowing a bit here and there to buy a park or two...then with the Knott's acquisition things started to slowly change a bit more...then one day they paid $1.24 billion for five parks and borrowed that much and almost half again as much in order to continue distributions as they paid off debt. Perhaps the most astounding thing to be revealed this week is that they have now completely devalued the goodwill and intangibles at two of the acquired parks, devalued in part the trade names of several others, and took, in total, an $87 million impairment charge to reduce the intangibles value of their Paramount Parks acquisition. This is truly amazing news. The entire company now has a market capitalization of less than half of what they paid for the Paramount Parks alone...as of Friday, it was just under $526 million. Still far better than Flags, whose market cap is just over $30 million. I still can see either or both these companies being sold soon. Cedar Fair has to worry only about creditors, given the fact the company is a limited partnership and the unit holders therein do not have control. SIX must also worry about hostile takeovers and, quite possibly, impending bankruptcy. Not good times in the park industry. Your Hard Rock Park analogy is a very good one. At least SIX and FUN buy parks and have not attempted to build one from scratch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racerrider Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 from what i recall, sixflags is one of five companys expected to close for good in "09. I wouldn't be too suprised if Cedar Fair tried to sell off WOF, Michigans Adv, and A cpuple of the Knott's waterparks this year, if someone could buy them that is, and i'm not too suprised about crime up in the 'burg, that place seems to have been going bown hill since about '03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flightoffear1996 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I actaully think this will help Kings Island with many families not taking that Flordia trip and would be more likely to make a few visits to the local amusement park. I for one haven't really felt the effects of the poor economny yet and hopefully never will but I have been helping others that have. Hopefully things will start to change soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racerrider Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 I actaully think this will help Kings Island with many families not taking that Flordia trip and would be more likely to make a few visits to the local amusement park. I for one haven't really felt the effects of the poor economny yet and hopefully never will but I have been helping others that have. Hopefully things will start to change soon. You're right, i kinda forgot about that, i think i saw something about that in either the dayton daily news or the plain dealer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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