The Son of Beast Discussion Thread

[Browntggrr]

^^ And now, you must choose a punishment.

1. Get dipped into boiling oil

-or-

2. Ride SoB 20 consecutive times

Choose. Choose wisely.

[McSalsa]

^^ And now, you must choose a punishment.

1. Get dipped into boiling oil

-or-

2. Ride SoB 20 consecutive times

Choose. Choose wisely.

...what seat on Son of Beast?

Because it's its front seat of blue train...I choose Son of Beast.

If back seat...I choose oil.

PS: Have never ridden SOB, so punishment might end up being fun for me. And I would get a credit. And if they tore it down afterwords, I could go around bragging about how I was the last one to ride it. Trust me, I would brag.

If I were still alive that is...

[Buckeye Brad]

Shaggy,

I've enjoyed reading your KI insights over the years.

Would you please offer your thoughts on these 2 options:

(these costs are just my guesses, please correct them as you see fit)

Option #1 Tear it Down

SOB total removal cost: $4,000,000

Major new coaster cost: $20,000,000 (B&M or Intamin)

Total: $24,000,000

or...

Option #2 Keep the station, lift, and first drop, but replace the rest and re-brand the coaster

Rose bowl + misc track removal cost: $2,000,000

New track design and build cost: $6,000,000 (perhaps a Voyage or Thunderhead style layout)

New trains: $3,000,000

Total: $11,000,000

I'm making the following assumptions: (please correct these too if needed)

1. KI (Cedar Fair) would like to open a major new coaster in the next 4 years (consistent with their history)

2. KI (Cedar Fair) is not looking to spend $20 million on a coaster anytime soon, considering the debt and recent investments in the chain

3. Tearing the ride out and NOT replacing it with something equally epic might hurt their image with paying guests

4. The public (and insurance company) would buy a partially re-made SOB (a la Kennywood Tbolt and Phantom)

5. The lift hill and drop are not part of the "roughness" problem

What do you think?

[McSalsa]

Shaggy,

I've enjoyed reading your KI insights over the years.

Would you please offer your thoughts on these 2 options:

(these costs are just my guesses, please correct them as you see fit)

Option #1 Tear it Down

SOB total removal cost: $4,000,000

Major new coaster cost: $20,000,000 (B&M or Intamin)

Total: $24,000,000

or...

Option #2 Keep the station, lift, and first drop, but replace the rest and re-brand the coaster

Rose bowl + misc track removal cost: $2,000,000

New track design and build cost: $6,000,000 (perhaps a Voyage or Thunderhead style layout)

New trains: $3,000,000

Total: $11,000,000

I'm making the following assumptions: (please correct these too if needed)

1. KI (Cedar Fair) would like to open a major new coaster in the next 4 years (consistent with their history)

2. KI (Cedar Fair) is not looking to spend $20 million on a coaster anytime soon, considering the debt and recent investments in the chain

3. Tearing the ride out and NOT replacing it with something equally epic might hurt their image with paying guests

4. The public (and insurance company) would buy a partially re-made SOB (a la Kennywood Tbolt and Phantom)

5. The lift hill and drop are not part of the "roughness" problem

What do you think?

Well I am not Shaggy, but I would go with option B if I were Cedar Fair since it is $13 million cheaper. Might take a few years before we start trusting SOB again though.

PS: The $13,000,000 saved could buy us a roller coaster like Voyage @ Holiday World, which if I am correct only cost $7 million to build or so, AND have enough left over for a giant flatride!

[Shaggy]

Well, let me first respond to your final comments:

1. KI (Cedar Fair) would like to open a major new coaster in the next 4 years (consistent with their history)

CF also has a lead time on new installs by about 3-4 years as well. That means, the next coaster for KI is probably already in developmental stages.

2. KI (Cedar Fair) is not looking to spend $20 million on a coaster anytime soon, considering the debt and recent investments in the chain.

See, I view the investments as a sign that CF IS willing to spend the money on coasters. This year's announcements alone signal to me that they aren't about to get stingy now.

3. Tearing the ride out and NOT replacing it with something equally epic might hurt their image with paying guests.

Why? I think tearing it out would bother very few people. People don't seem to be picketing since the ride has been closed all summer. If it's not operating, what's the difference whether it's physically present or not? CF already proved they aren't feeling to patient with temperamental rides at other parks... think Hypersonic.

4. The public (and insurance company) would buy a partially re-made SOB (a la Kennywood Tbolt and Phantom)

You sure about that? I have a friend that swears he'll never ride it again... changes or not. He says "I was lucky that I didn't get hurt the first time." You can't erase that notion from people's minds with the removal of a "rosebowl."

5. The lift hill and drop are not part of the "roughness" problem.

No... just the loudness problem. LOL ;-)

Again, if it were me... I'd tear it down, and not necessarily replace it with a coaster... there's lots of other things that could be done with that land for far less money.

Shaggy

[shark6495]

Shaggy you are right, its hard to erase many people notions of how safe a ride or a park is in general. Heck people have a hard enough time to return to a restaurant if their food was slightly cold and the service was bad, imagine thinking they may die on a ride; that sort of negative reputation is very hard to overcome....

[Buckeye Brad]

Thanks for the quick reply Shaggy. As usual, you've provided some good food for thought.

2. KI (Cedar Fair) is not looking to spend $20 million on a coaster anytime soon, considering the debt and recent investments in the chain.

- "See, I view the investments as a sign that CF IS willing to spend the money on coasters. This year's announcements alone signal to me that they aren't about to get stingy now"

Great point. I was thinking they might scale back after such big investments, but I like your theory much better.

4. The public (and insurance company) would buy a partially re-made SOB (a la Kennywood Tbolt and Phantom)

-"You sure about that? I have a friend that swears he'll never ride it again... changes or not. He says "I was lucky that I didn't get hurt the first time." You can't erase that notion from people's minds with the removal of a "rosebowl"."

I have no idea about the insurance company, but I do think most folks could get excited about "extreme makeover SOB-edition". Again, I'm talking about a radically different post-drop layout, including tunnels, fog, the kitchen sink, a comfortable ride, and a new name. If the changes really are exciting, and if media and early riders rave about the changes (all big IFs), I'd expect most skeptics to give it another shot. Who wants to miss out on a great coaster?

One disadvantage is that besides the lift hill and drop, the current layout is mostly hidden from the midway. A new layout on that land would still be mostly hidden. This limits the "curb appeal" / WOW factor / marketability of a possible makeover. If Vortex got a new layout after the drop, of course it would be plain as day to everyone in the park.

I do think some creative thinking by all parties (coaster designers, insurance companies, Cedar Fair) could save this coaster, and be a home run for everyone. But I'm starting to agree with you that the Son of Beast is history.

If it does get torn down, I can only imagine the "legend" that SOB will have 30 years from now, like The Bat, Riverview Bobs, and Crystal Beach Cyclone.

[Buckeye Brad]

Shaggy you are right, its hard to erase many people notions of how safe a ride or a park is in general. Heck people have a hard enough time to return to a restaurant if their food was slightly cold and the service was bad, imagine thinking they may die on a ride; that sort of negative reputation is very hard to overcome....

"I'm not riding Son of Beast. It's not safe". (RollerCoaster Tycoon joke)

[shark6495]

I do think some creative thinking by all parties (coaster designers, insurance companies, Cedar Fair) could save this coaster, and be a home run for everyone. But I'm starting to agree with you that the Son of Beast is history.

If it does get torn down, I can only imagine the "legend" that SOB will have 30 years from now, like The Bat, Riverview Bobs, and Crystal Beach Cyclone.

I have said that before that (way back on page like 35 or so) that SOB will be our generation's version of The Bat...... Buckeye Brad, first I have to say O-H, and now that is out of the way you would be very weary of a ride re-design of, using your numbers, 11 million dollars because if the re-design does not work your company is out of that money also. It must be tough to be a park exec because they must balance the check books with peoples perspective of your park......

"I'm not riding Son of Beast. It's not safe". wink.gif (RollerCoaster Tycoon joke)

When did rollercoaster tycoon start quoting park guests (I kid, I kid)

[Buckeye Brad]

Shark,

I-Ordinarily keep sports out of these forums, but what the heck.

Back to the topic at hand, my whole rationale for a makeover is this..."Hey, we can get rid of the problem areas of SOB, and market a new world class coaster, all in one shot, for much less $ than starting from scratch." But like Shaggy pointed out, the big additions and expenses are likely planned out for the next 3-4 years. I don't think KI wants SOB to be SBNO for 3-4 years. I suspect it's now or never.

[Browntggrr]

I don't think KI wants SOB to be SBNO for 3-4 years.

Honestly, does it really matter? It's not like there is a specific time frame for it to be dismantled if it not going to operate again.

Drachen Fire at BGW was SBNO for almost 4 years while trying to sell it.

I'm willing to bet that if SoB does not operate again, it will still be SBNO for at least one more season.

[dakota2112]

One disadvantage is that besides the lift hill and drop, the current layout is mostly hidden from the midway. A new layout on that land would still be mostly hidden.

Like father like son! (translation: so what? )

[bkroz]

4. The public (and insurance company) would buy a partially re-made SOB (a la Kennywood Tbolt and Phantom)[/i]

-"You sure about that? I have a friend that swears he'll never ride it again... changes or not. He says "I was lucky that I didn't get hurt the first time." You can't erase that notion from people's minds with the removal of a "rosebowl"."

You sure about that? I have friends who have ridden it and want it reopen, and friends who haven't ridden it and are pretty bummed they might not get to, stories and all... A case study isn't going to prove a single point here. We need actual statistical information from a large pool of people. And unfortunately, we aren't going to get it. Ever. Several websites were pointed out that rated it (based on rider comments) around a 7 / 10. Obviously, the people who hate it will disagree with that and point out all the flaws of the census. If we found one that put Son of Beast at around a 2 / 10, the people who liked it would disagree with that and point out all of that poll's flaws.

What the world as a whole thinks of Son of Beast, we'll never know. Everyone has a friend who "almost got killed by it and would never ever ever ride it again no matter what and its the largest piece of crap and should be a bonfire" and other sensationalized information. While everyone ELSE has a friend that liked it just fine and thought it was pretty incredible to have all that speed and force and it was a ride of a lifetime and other words sensationalized the OTHER way.

Us sitting here (admittedly) sensationalizing things is not going to get anything done. At this point. the fate of the ride is being decided without us and without our friend of a friend of a friend who loved/hated it. We'll just have to see what's decided.

[Dvo]

^There are bound to be people on both sides of the fence regarding SoB. Buckeye Brad didn't say that everyone shared that feeling. Just that there are people that would not buy into the ride being re-done.

Shaggy,

I've enjoyed reading your KI insights over the years.

Would you please offer your thoughts on these 2 options:

(these costs are just my guesses, please correct them as you see fit)

Option #1 Tear it Down

SOB total removal cost: $4,000,000

Major new coaster cost: $20,000,000 (B&M or Intamin)

Total: $24,000,000

or...

Option #2 Keep the station, lift, and first drop, but replace the rest and re-brand the coaster

Rose bowl + misc track removal cost: $2,000,000

New track design and build cost: $6,000,000 (perhaps a Voyage or Thunderhead style layout)

New trains: $3,000,000

Total: $11,000,000

I'm making the following assumptions: (please correct these too if needed)

1. KI (Cedar Fair) would like to open a major new coaster in the next 4 years (consistent with their history)

2. KI (Cedar Fair) is not looking to spend $20 million on a coaster anytime soon, considering the debt and recent investments in the chain

3. Tearing the ride out and NOT replacing it with something equally epic might hurt their image with paying guests

4. The public (and insurance company) would buy a partially re-made SOB (a la Kennywood Tbolt and Phantom)

5. The lift hill and drop are not part of the "roughness" problem

I think your guesses at the costs are a little off.. especially the removal. SoB is a massive structure. I'm guessing more like 4x that amount. As for your assumptions, the only ones I agree with are the last two. Apparently this needs to be said again, so I'll say it... again. There is no set timeline for a park to install a roller coaster! And if this year says anything, it's that Cedar Fair is NOT afraid to spend money on new investments.

Finally, the paying guests won't "boycott" Kings Island if they take out SoB and leave the land unused. Most of the park's guests go for a fun day at the amusement park, in general. They've been operating most of this year without SoB running, and they've been doing just fine. Also, something "equally epic," as you put it, might be a bad thing. To me, that implies we'd be getting another ride that will lead to many injuries and lawsuits, sit SBNO for more time that it operates, and be an incredibly large investment that will essentially go to waste.

I hope this doesn't come off as too negative. Not trying to rip apart your post. I just personally don't agree.

[shark6495]

4. The public (and insurance company) would buy a partially re-made SOB (a la Kennywood Tbolt and Phantom)[/i]

-"You sure about that? I have a friend that swears he'll never ride it again... changes or not. He says "I was lucky that I didn't get hurt the first time." You can't erase that notion from people's minds with the removal of a "rosebowl"."

You sure about that? I have friends who have ridden it and want it reopen, and friends who haven't ridden it and are pretty bummed they might not get to, stories and all... A case study isn't going to prove a single point here. We need actual statistical information from a large pool of people. And unfortunately, we aren't going to get it. Ever. Several websites were pointed out that rated it (based on rider comments) around a 7 / 10. Obviously, the people who hate it will disagree with that and point out all the flaws of the census. If we found one that put Son of Beast at around a 2 / 10, the people who liked it would disagree with that and point out all of that poll's flaws.

...... We'll just have to see what's decided.

I was pointing out the flaws of the poll not the results of the poll.... Just like I would if there was a poll of 100 people who rated SOB a 2/10...... I do not hate SOB but I recognize that in its current state (when it was running) the ride is more likely to garner negative news than positive.....

[Buckeye Brad]

I think your guesses at the costs are a little off.. especially the removal. SoB is a massive structure. I'm guessing more like 4x that amount.

I'm very curious about the cost to tear it down, and yes my $4 mill was just a wag. If the cost is closer to $16 mill, all the more reason to think about putting some lipstick on this pig.

Also, something "equally epic," as you put it, might be a bad thing. To me, that implies we'd be getting another ride that will lead to many injuries and lawsuits, sit SBNO for more time that it operates, and be an incredibly large investment that will essentially go to waste.

By "epic" I was simply thinking something BIG, exciting, perhaps record breaking. Griffon, Maverick, Intimidator305, etc.

I hope this doesn't come off as too negative. Not trying to rip apart your post. I just personally don't agree.

No problem at all Dvo. I'm really just throwing out ideas here, since my wife and 4 year old couldn't care less about these things.

Rip away, I appreciate the feedback. Keep it coming.

Clarity is much better than agreement.

[CedarPointer]

Dear Son of Beast,

Love, CedarPointer

[HTCO]

Agreed Cedar Pointer.

[The Interpreter]

Terpy wouldn't be Terpy if he didn't ask a few thought provoking questions from time to time. Seems I remember more than one poster here recently discussing the testing they saw during days whilst the park was not open to the public. Admittedly, that testing could be going on for any of a myriad of reasons...but why has the overall mood here suddenly shifted from "They are almost certainly going to reopen Son of Beast" to "Well, I guess not." Why the change?

Terpy, as always, choosing his words VERY carefully...there is no intended message here that can be interpreted as saying that Son of Beast will or will not reopen. It will or will not reopen, though...

[Tomkatt7]

My thoughts never been anything other than hope.

As in, I hope they reopen it

[KIfan1980]

Terpy wouldn't be Terpy if he didn't ask a few thought provoking questions from time to time. Seems I remember more than one poster here recently discussing the testing they saw during days whilst the park was not open to the public. Admittedly, that testing could be going on for any of a myriad of reasons...but why has the overall mood here suddenly shifted from "They are almost certainly going to reopen Son of Beast" to "Well, I guess not." Why the change?

Why the change in tone - because Shaggy posted the following statements

I am sure someone else posted this, but local news channels are reporting that the park is now saying SOB is to remain closed indefinitely and likely for good. The official statement is that it's fate will be decided in the off season.

Pay your respects folks. I suspect SOB will stand but not operate for another season whereupon it will then be demolished.... ALA The Bat.

Shaggy

and

A re-design of the ride is a total improbability at this point.

...

SOB's poor reputation has sealed it's fate. At this point, I believe the only thing keeping it standing is the park's operational budget. As soon as they factor costs for it's removal into an annual budget, it will be demolished.

Shaggy

Many of us, we are still holding out hope as Tomkatt just posted.

I personally believe (and it is only my opinion and that may be tainted by the above hope) that the fate of Son of Beast is not yet sealed and that the testing that occurred on mid September weekdays was about determining if there were options to improve the ride experience on Son of Beast and at what cost because the one undeniable truth about this is that a big part of the decision will be a financial decision. Which choice is the best for the park financially.

[The Interpreter]

Terpy would also point out reasons for the testing could range from evaluating options for repair/refurbishment to documenting forces for future purposes in the event of claims, etc., prior to dismantling. Testing alone should not lead to any required inference of the ride's future. Testing means...the ride is being tested. Nothing less, nothing more...at least not by itself.

[Shaggy]

Why the change in tone - because Shaggy posted the following statements

Livened things up, did it not?

Shaggy - ever the antagonist ;-)

[The Interpreter]

As opposed to that other guy, ever the philosopher/trouble maker?

[KIfan1980]

I hear you Terpy - which is why I both qualified my statement and shared my bias. Until proven otherwise, I'm sticking with HOPE!

[standbyme]

I have NEVER even made a guess on this site whether I do or don't think Cedar Fair will re-open Son of Beast...and I never will...you wanna know why...because after learning that Cedar Fair was "wise" enough to remove Scooby Doo from the park I say there is no way of guessing what they might do next...who knows, they may be in the planning stages of turning SOB into the largest indoor coaster as we speak.

At this point in time you could tell me any far-fetched rumor and I would always think to myself "That doesn't make any sense at all...they wouldn't do that...oh wait...they did ditch Scooby Doo".

[TheSonofBeast]

i honestly hope it will reopen, but it is only hope at this point. Honestly, this could have been over and done with a LONG time ago, because all the management at Cedar Fair has done is create a mass amount of confusion and sending of mixed signals. They are so far behind the game on this issue. It took them what a month after the investigation cleared the ride to actually just say hey we are closing it for the year. They had the guest relations personnel lie to everyone, they just slowly removed things with no explanation, and then just test it out of the blue for no apparent reason. one thing is for sure, this has been a disaster and will continue to be so until it is over.

[HTCO]

Son of Beast has had problems since the beginning and will do so until its gone. I really badly want to call SOB one of Kings Islands worst investments.

[Browntggrr]

i honestly hope it will reopen, but it is only hope at this point. Honestly, this could have been over and done with a LONG time ago, because all the management at Cedar Fair has done is create a mass amount of confusion and sending of mixed signals. They are so far behind the game on this issue. It took them what a month after the investigation cleared the ride to actually just say hey we are closing it for the year. They had the guest relations personnel lie to everyone, they just slowly removed things with no explanation, and then just test it out of the blue for no apparent reason. one thing is for sure, this has been a disaster and will continue to be so until it is over.

You really feel that SoB's issues are due to CF's sending out mixed signals & creating mass confusion?

Really?

The ride has had numerous incidents/ accidents (many prior to CF aquisition), after being cleared as safe to ride. Are you suggesting that CF go through the same process again to deem the ride safe? Putting my feelings aside for SoB; given any other ride, if ride "X" had an issue, and that issue was investigated then fixed, and then ride "X" had another issue, why would going through the same motions again make sense?

Definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

[The Interpreter]

On the other hand, if you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there.

Terpy, lover of old saws...