Guest Millennium Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Give just about any historical subject a long look in the rearview mirror, and you're going to see some ugliness. Some things are worse than others of course, but for every VHS player, there is a Video Disc unit, clinging to the unfortunate shadows where failures dwell and die. I want to get one thing out of the way first, Arrow was an amazing company, they provided more groundbreaking rides than perhaps any coaster building conglomerate of their time, and perhaps even of all time. That said, Arrow rides have aged, and in most cases, aged poorly. There are still some standouts, Magnum XL-200 is a ride I'd happily enjoy over and over again, even as it ages. Unfortunately, the Magnums of this world are few and far between, left in their wake are uncomfortable at best head bang o' rama "rides" like the infinite corkscrew clones that pollute many smaller parks across the globe. Still, besides such ignoble and still standing beasts like Six Flag's Great Adventures Great American Scream Machine, the real Arrow disasters have either been lost to history or covered with a coat of paint so thick it makes one question where Arrow stopped and the refurbishment began. Shall we take a look together? http://www.thecoastercritic.com/2010/07/top-3-arrow-design-failures.html Good article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 a. You need to include a link: http://www.thecoastercritic.com/2010/07/top-3-arrow-design-failures.html b. You cannot quote an entire article like that....It's a violation of copyright law and can get this site (and potentially you) in serious trouble...Pick a part, quote it and include a link. This is called "fair use" and is, so far, legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browntggrr Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Intresting that Steel Phantom made the list over Drachen Fire at BGW. I am also not too sure if you can even consider X or SP a "failure" as each ride still stands today- just modified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Millennium Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Oops. My bad. Still a good find though... I was expecting to see Drachen Fire there too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 An excellent find, sir! Indeed. I can't believe it calls Kingda Ka the innovative coaster compared to Top Thrill Dragster...makes you wonder just what inside info, if any, the author had.... It also mentions Drachen Fire in passing...a coaster far more uncomfortable than Steel Phantom ever thought of being... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkroz Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 I truly think Arrow's problem is more basic: Poor transitions. Everyone feels them. You can ride Vortex, or Adventure Express and physically see the track ahead awkwardly snap in direction. You can watch as the passengers, one car at the time, are whipped to the side. If you sit in the front, you can see it coming, and have that "Oh crap" moment when you brace yourself and prepare for the worst. On Adventure Express, it's an annoyance. On Vortex, it's downright awful, in my opinion. And those two are actually aging much better than say, Anaconda at Kings Dominion... Sure the suspended coaster and the 4th dimension coaster have design flaws almost entirely because they were prototypes... But the awkward transitions and the neck-snapping are two things that are simply inherent issues in Arrow mine trains and multi-looper rides. Were the transitions not as bad when the rides first opened? I can't imagine that it's simply a matter of "aging," because it's in the physical pieces of track that the direction changes occur so oddly. Like on Vortex, you enter (and exit) the MCBR so awkwardly, on your side, and then go through this painful, stretched out corkscrew and slam onto your side and the track is rattling because the wheels aren't affixed tightly to the track... Ugh! The same can be said of the second hill. The first drop is okay, then at the top of the second hill of Vortex, the track snaps down into a straight piece and then tosses you onto your side to round a turn, over and over again... Why couldn't they just have smooth transitions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTCO Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 The total cost of X and X2 to date? Forty six million dollars. Yep, they could have built Millennium Force and Top Thrill Dragster instead. Or both Intimidator coasters. Or really pretty much anything. Wow, I had no idea X has cost them that much. A big fail indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 The transitions are no different today than they were when the coasters opened. Two factors could have made those fun: different restraints (the ONE thing most improved on Steel Phantom's Revenge, in my opinion) and cushioned seating and/or suspensions on the trains... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fear the Four Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Six Flags Magic Mountain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delirium13 Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 I truly think Arrow's problem is more basic: Poor transitions. Everyone feels them. You can ride Vortex, or Adventure Express and physically see the track ahead awkwardly snap in direction. You can watch as the passengers, one car at the time, are whipped to the side. If you sit in the front, you can see it coming, and have that "Oh crap" moment when you brace yourself and prepare for the worst. On Adventure Express, it's an annoyance. On Vortex, it's downright awful, in my opinion. And those two are actually aging much better than say, Anaconda at Kings Dominion... Sure the suspended coaster and the 4th dimension coaster have design flaws almost entirely because they were prototypes... But the awkward transitions and the neck-snapping are two things that are simply inherent issues in Arrow mine trains and multi-looper rides. Were the transitions not as bad when the rides first opened? I can't imagine that it's simply a matter of "aging," because it's in the physical pieces of track that the direction changes occur so oddly. Like on Vortex, you enter (and exit) the MCBR so awkwardly, on your side, and then go through this painful, stretched out corkscrew and slam onto your side and the track is rattling because the wheels aren't affixed tightly to the track... Ugh! The same can be said of the second hill. The first drop is okay, then at the top of the second hill of Vortex, the track snaps down into a straight piece and then tosses you onto your side to round a turn, over and over again... Why couldn't they just have smooth transitions? Basically sums up my thoughts on Vortex after my first two rides on it this year, needless to say they'll probably end up being my only two rides on it this year. Such a good looking ride, yet so painful. Still holds a special place in my heart as my first looping coaster, but after my headache I received during my last ride, I'll stick to looking at it for now... Interesting article though, nice find! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormaster Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 The transitions are no different today than they were when the coasters opened. Two factors could have made those fun: different restraints (the ONE thing most improved on Steel Phantom's Revenge, in my opinion) and cushioned seating and/or suspensions on the trains... In that case I think Cedar Fair outta buy some new trains from Vekoma. Vekoma does make some more modern trains designed for Arrow Custom Looping coasters. Honestly the roughness of The Vortex doesn't bother me. Prior to '08 I rode The Vortex at least 3 times per visit, if not more, because it was such an awesome intense ride, and you could get on without having to wait all day, even on a busy day. In '08 Son of Beast was running smoothly so I probably hit it up more than I did Vortex, and in '09 Diamondback so last year and this year I've only rode Vortex once per visit while making sure to get multiple rides on Diamondback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coaster_junky Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 this is a pretty good forum to post this in: "Support the return of The Bat to Kings Island" sadly, it's never going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormaster Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Why do people even care about The Bat? The Suspended coaster model has always been how you say kinda lame. See B&M inverted coaster, the TRUE replacement for the Arrow suspended coaster! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coney Islander Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Unlike its later decedents, which have a controlled swing arc that they will not surpass, The Bat took a less conservative approach. The Bat’s “free swinging” cars were exactly that, guaranteeing that no two rides on The Bat would ever be the same. I'd never heard that before. Is it true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Why do people even care about The Bat? The Suspended coaster model has always been how you say kinda lame. See B&M inverted coaster, the TRUE replacement for the Arrow suspended coaster! You obviously never rode The Bat (neither did I). NO ONE I ever knew who did thought it was lame. NO ONE. Unlike its later decedents, which have a controlled swing arc that they will not surpass, The Bat took a less conservative approach. The Bat's "free swinging" cars were exactly that, guaranteeing that no two rides on The Bat would ever be the same. I'd never heard that before. Is it true? Yes, it's one of the reasons both track and shock absorbers took such a beating on The Bat. Free swinging to a larger degree than now is the way I'd put it, along with virtually no banking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormaster Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 I was only 4 years old when it was removed. The first year I went to Kings Island was 1989 and I was never even aware of The Bat untill the 2000's when friends and stuff have said "my first visit The Bat was still there". I can't believe Drachen Fire isn't on this list. Thats kind of up there with The Bat isn't it? Its also IMO one of the most interesting Fail coasters. From what I hear the contract was supposed to go to B&M to build 2 coasters, Kumba and Drachen Fire, but B&M was busy making Batman the ride, as well as 2 Vortex standup coasters for Paramount Parks. B&M was able to deliver on Kumba, but not Drachen Fire, so the project went to Arrow. And it failed hard. Very hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoasterKrazy Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 It’s not that the concept was bad, if anything the concept was brave and certainly a new twist on an old idea. The Bat essentially was a suspended coaster in the style of Arrow’s later, successful rides like Iron Dragon or Flight Deck. Only unlike those rides, The Bat had not been run through any rigorous testing to make sure it was safe to ride. Rather, they just put that sucker up and let the general public have at it. As shown by the video , the suspended coaster concept was actually tested extensively by Arrow. Notice that the scale model has a corkscrew, and that at least two different track styles are used in the full scale test. The Bat's first riders were far from guinea pigs, as the article implies. Regarding the 4D concept, it was developed by Arrow's Alan Shilke in the mid 1990s, and based on the information he provides here it was not at the request of any one particular client (in other words, Six Flags couldn't have gone with B&M or Intamin to build the ride, because they didn't offer it). An interesting article, but not well researched it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 It’s not that the concept was bad, if anything the concept was brave and certainly a new twist on an old idea. The Bat essentially was a suspended coaster in the style of Arrow’s later, successful rides like Iron Dragon or Flight Deck. Only unlike those rides, The Bat had not been run through any rigorous testing to make sure it was safe to ride. Rather, they just put that sucker up and let the general public have at it. As shown by the video , the suspended coaster concept was actually tested extensively by Arrow. Notice that the scale model has a corkscrew, and that at least two different track styles are used in the full scale test. The Bat's first riders were far from guinea pigs, as the article implies. Regarding the 4D concept, it was developed by Arrow's Alan Shilke in the mid 1990s, and based on the information he provides here it was not at the request of any one particular client (in other words, Six Flags couldn't have gone with B&M or Intamin to build the ride, because they didn't offer it). An interesting article, but not well researched it seems. That coaster in that video looks so intense, not the real life model, but the scale model. That corkscrew looks like it could put forces on the train, track, and your body like none that have ever been experienced before. Much similar to what happened with Mavericks heartline. I do agree with Browntggr though, I don't see how you can necessarily call Steel Phantom and X failures persay. I do agree though that the Steel Phantom should not have included inversions, or even typical Arrow looper trains. If you take a look at that video and watch at about the 1:47 mark, watch the headbanging going on, and this is just the bottom of the first drop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 If you think Steel Phantom's head banging was bad in that video, you should have ridden it! Terpy, who rode it many, many times...which explains a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 ^I remember watching that video as a young kid and wanting to ride Steel Phantom so bad. Now that I am older and look back, I am glad in a way I never got to ride it because my neck might have been broken, but wish I would have because now I will never have a chance to tackle the original Steel Phantom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Arrow made a lot of other rides, too. How many log rides can you count? Some of their coasters, like Gemini, are very good. Others just weren't good to start with and/or have not aged well. It's a shame, though, that "failuers" will be remembered more than triumphs. (and yes, I rode The Bat and yes, there isn't anything about it I didn't like - it was one heck of a machine.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browntggrr Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 The Suspended coaster model has always been how you say kinda lame. What suspended coasters have you been on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Millennium Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 I personally find Flight Deck very intense..even Iron Dragon to an extent. While arrow is known for headbangers like Vortex or Great American Scream Machine..I think they have made some great coasters too. I would rather marathon Gemini all day than I would Raptor, believe it or not..just because they don't have as good of a track record as say, B&M does, they made some great rides (to name a few, Magnum, Big Bad Wolf, Loch ness Monster, Gemini, etc.) I would love to see one of these for Vekoma as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 ...don't forget the granddaddy of all them Arrows...Matterhorn Bobsleds at Disneyland...in which Arrow played a key role... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkroz Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 If you think Steel Phantom's head banging was bad in that video, you should have ridden it! Terpy, who rode it many, many times...which explains a lot Steel Phantom interests me more than I could possibly say - I have ridden the Phantom's Revenge on quite a few occasions, and most every time I get off I think to myself, "that was even better than Millennium Force." It's just a fantastic ride, and it's so funny to think that that's not how it used to be... GYK, glad that the days of 'more loops, more fun' is, for the most part, over (and that those who chose to continue the trend do it much more comfortably than Arrow ever did). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BavarianBeatle Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 I enjoy the transitions on Arrow Coasters. Roller coasters are supposed to be snap and throw you around. That's what makes them fun. --Beatle, who grew up in a time when kids who came home from KI without bruises from The Racer were promptly provided with them by the other kids in the neighborhood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markr Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 In my opinion, Arrow's masterpiece is still Gemini-it just seems to have aged better than its other creations. It is as smooth as it was when I first rode it 24 years ago and that head chopper in the middle just can't be beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fear the Four Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 The Suspended coaster model has always been how you say kinda lame. Flight deck is the best ride at Kings Island besides Diamondback. It's not lame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTCO Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 I personally find Flight Deck very intense..even Iron Dragon to an extent. Sorry, I had too. HTCO, sometimes doesn't know when to keep his trap shut... FYI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormaster Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 The Suspended coaster model has always been how you say kinda lame. What suspended coasters have you been on? Only Flight Deck, though Coaster critics have said its the most "intense" of all of them, which to me doesn't say much as Flight Deck is pretty weak. Thought honestly my main compliant is how short it is... if it were a bit longer I wouldn't have any complaints. I think the rumors we hear every year about them tearing it down just go to show its an unpopular coaster that no one cares about. We all know very well that Kings Island doesn't need to tear it down to get the extra space as they haven't even currently used half of the land they own. But many people talk about it being the first coaster to go even before Son of Beast because they secretly loath the lame-a-coaster and want it gone. Either that or they just hate the ridiculously long queue it has, which I agree the queue sucks and it isn't worth the short ride. I will be riding my second suspended coaster "Iron Dragon" next week which honestly from POV videos, looks a bit more entertaining than flight deck as it at least has 2 lift hills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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