Why do people hate the Paramount Period of KI?

[Pagoda Gift Shop]

That's a great collection! Now if only I could find someone with footage from Top Gun's opening in '93.

[bkroz]

That's a great collection! Now if only I could find someone with footage from Top Gun's opening in '93.

If you haven't seen that, it gives you a lot to consider about how Top Gun used to be... The blazing red track, the fog in the valleys, the mist in the station (like a real aircraft carrier), the long-gone airplane billboard right outside the station, etc... Back then, an Arrow suspended coaster was a big deal! And you can't tell me it wasn't at least in part because people were intrigued by the idea of riding a ride based on a film... The fog, the soundtrack in the queue & station, the special effects in the queue... A roller coaster is fun. Riding a roller coaster with multiple, real-life relations to a favorite movie? How could it be anything but better?

[Pagoda Gift Shop]

What year did you shoot the Tomb Raider footage? I noticed it doesn't have the eyes which search left to right at the start of the ride or flash. If I remember right, they were replaced with the eyes seen in the video in either '03 or '04.

[bkroz]

What year did you shoot the Tomb Raider footage? I noticed it doesn't have the eyes which search left to right at the start of the ride or flash. If I remember right, they were replaced with the eyes seen in the video in either '03 or '04.

I didn't shoot the video, so I do not know. I found it while perusing a Facebook group of people who worked on Tomb Raider: The Ride. They prefaced the video by saying "We... we failed..." In other words, their diligent attempts to stop on-ride video (a serious concern on a top spin, I'm sure) was unsuccessful at least this once. It was actually pretty funny. I do link the original video in the information on my video.

However, you can definitely tell that video was past 2004... Notice it's literally in pitch-black darkness, and as soon as it shows Travel Channel footage (taken in 2002, doubtless) it shows a room filled with hundreds of different colored lights pointing every which way, the blacklight on the "angry" version of the goddess still worked, etc. If the POV video was taken in 2002, it would have those hundreds of lights, the sparker, the laser eyes, etc.

I still get chills during the "lava" scene, when the music for that portion just begins and the lava simply bubbles and steams. Then, as soon as the music crescendos, that's when the actual spurts of lava start to shoot up, perfectly in time with the percussion of the music... Plus there's the great finale during the homing sequence, when you circle around the bottom and face the goddess as all of the lights flicker at once. Then, just as the homing sequence finishes, all of the lights go out except her eyes as her laugh fades in the distance and one last billow of fog flies at the gondola in her last attempt to "get you"... Today on The Crypt, you just sit there and look at green walls for like, fifteen or twenty seconds as the ride tries to get back into its home position... Back then, there was something to look at.

[RD Reynolds]

EDIT: Annnndddd, they're on PKI Tunes. Thanks for stealin' my thunder CedarPointer!

PKI Tunes? What is this?

RD

[bkroz]

http://web.archive.org/web/20060712074043/www.pkiasylum.com/features/pkitunes/pkitunes.html

The way you typed that, I don't know if you're being sarcastic. But there you go in case you're not! Hahah.

[RD Reynolds]

http://web.archive.o...s/pkitunes.html

The way you typed that, I don't know if you're being sarcastic. But there you go in case you're not! Hahah.

Was being serious. Way cool, many thanks!

RD

[Coney Islander]

A common misconception, Dark Rides really aren't that expensive.

In 1929, Pretzel Dark Rides were sold for 1,200 dollars, or an equivalent to 15,000 today. Now, keeping in mind that the companies today charge a lot and that Dark Rides are generally much longer, the price for a Dark Ride with the original Pretzel system should be less than $100,000, not including animatronics or props.

Now, imagine the park wants to create a very high technology, amazing Dark Ride experience. The average extremely high tech large animatronic with many moving parts costs around 2,500 dollars. With the budget of 150,000 dollars you can may add 10 human- sized animatronics, 40 smaller animatronics, and many hundreds of immovable props.

http://www.scarefactory.com/ ¹

For the same price as 22 million dollar Diamondback, Kings Island could of added 12 extensive and very high quality Dark Rides, putting aside money for the upkeep, around 10 years.

¹ I posted the website of this animatronic figure designer because they have some of the highest quality stuff in the business, and their website includes prices. Fun, family friendly Dark Rides are much more marketable, at least in Kings Island's case.

A fun note, both The Dent Schoolhouse and USS Nightmare get props identical to these and most presumably from this company. The new ones that The Dent Schoolhouse added for the 2009 season are the very best I've ever seen. More realistic than many new Hollywood movies, even...

[bkroz]

I don't doubt that dark rides aren't that expensive. The thing is, people expect more and more today. If they go to a park like Knoebel's or Kennywood, sure, they want old-timey attractions like The Old Mill and Noah's Ark. But if a corporate-owned park like Kings Island starts flaunting it's upcoming, brand new dark ride, it better be more than gags behind cages and dim lighting and a musty smell (with all due respect to those older rides, haha). If a new, large park that usually displays additions of $10 million + announces a dark ride, people expect it to be a shooting ride at the least. Typically, I would say that I expect something more than that, even, whether it be a roller coaster dark ride like The Dark Knight, or something new and intensely themed like Tomb Raider - a hybrid dark ride like Spiderman or DarKastle would be ideal.

And realistically, those can't be all that expensive. I have heard that each SCOOP vehicle from Spiderman cost about a million dollars. Of course, it was a prototype, and even Intamin today makes a version of that hybrid dark ride that I'm sure would be a lot less expensive. In the case of DarKastle, there's actually not even that much lighting, props, flames, etc. - it really is about 90% 3-D screens. For that, I'm sure, the bulk of money goes into engineering the 3-D film from scratch, etc. And of course, given Cedar Fair's penchant for theme, I can't honestly imagine what they might theme such a ride around. Now, if it were at Cedar Point, I can see a Pirate themed one, because it brings back some of the history of the park and the placement is appropriate. But at Kings Island, it could go anywhere - dinosaurs? I don't know, nothing actually sounds "right," you know? Now if it were still Paramount, I honestly can imagine a "Tomb Raider" hybrid dark ride, combining the great "temple" sets used in The Crypt's queue and on rides like Disneyland's Indiana Jones.

What's difficult about the hybrid dark ride is how to theme it, after all... Spiderman set a precedent, and to me, I just couldn't imagine any other ride taking advantage of the system's capabilities. I believe psychologists call it "functional fixedness," where you overlook the obvious secondary functions of something because you're so used to the primary function. What other theme can have you traveling from one "villainous" scene to another, feature great theme like water and fire, make use of 3-D, and culminate in a fall? I could've sat for days and never thought of anything, because "superhero" was the only thing that made sense. Now, I can only imagine superheroes and haunted castles... I can't figure out anything else that would work really, really well (except, as I said, Pirates, and even then, I don't have any specific ideas), but I'm sure once a new one opens, I'll allow that into my perception, too.

[raptor]

I personally hate the Theme Park concept, a park designed around promoting an organization at every corner. I like traditional multiple-themed amusement parks. I got tired of seeing Paramount Movie advertisements and every ride having to be connected to a movie

[Coney Islander]

I've edited my first post with slightly more accurate information.

Goodyellowkorn182, I'd suggest that you look through some videos on the website I posted (if you haven't yet) and (if you enjoy haunted attractions) walk through The Dent Schoolhouse. Some of those animatronics are, and I mean it, more realistic than most of the new Horror and/or Science Fiction movies I've seen.

Animatronic technology has gotten to a point that 3d screens are, in many cases, less realistic. I know this sounds crazy to most people...

You can't fully understand until you walk through the new- 2009 Dent Schoolhouse or any haunted house of similar quality. And, for all you Halloween Haunt fans, Massacre Manor is fun, but doesn't come anywhere close.

[bkroz]

But (and I'm not saying that you do this, I'm just saying it's a trend) it's the people who say "Well who cares if it's named Flight Deck? The name doesn't change the ride." that also say "I hated that it was named Top Gun! Why the movie promotion?!" Either a name is important, or it isn't. And like I said, there was something to be said about riding Top Gun its first year - you weren't just lining up for a roller coaster, you were walking onto a jet carrier, and whizzing around through fog and listening to "Danger Zone." Tell me that's not better, even if in name only, than taking a quiet, theme-less, generic ride on something called Flight Deck?

The fact of the matter is, Kings Island had four rides that were actually themed to movies (& a TV show), more than just in names: Tomb Raider, Top Gun, Flight of Fear, and The Italian Job. Yeah, they were named after movies, and they also represented their namesakes very, very well in the theme department. The Tomb Raider, Top Gun, Outer Limits, and Italian Job properties are very well known, and the rides were great supplements to the films.

The only other three rides that had movies names (Days of Thunder, FACE/OFF, and Drop Zone) were named after movies that most people had never heard of. And those who did know of the movie "Drop Zone" probably never in a million years would associate it with the ride. It was just a really, really appropriate name that Paramount happened to own the rights to. I'm sure people know of the movie FACE/OFF, but as I said, the name was more than appropriate for the ride, and it's not as if there were a picture of Nicholas Cage as the "you must be this tall" poster outside the entrance.

So basically what I'm saying is, the rides that were named after movies were either very appropriately themed to the movies they were named after, or were named after movies so obscure, that people probably didn't know they were movies anyway.

And besides the movie poster plaza in Action Zone (which I actually liked - it fit that areas theme incredibly well), it's not like they were obnoxious about it necessarily, you know?

[RingMaster]

I don't doubt that dark rides aren't that expensive. The thing is, people expect more and more today. If they go to a park like Knoebel's or Kennywood, sure, they want old-timey attractions like The Old Mill and Noah's Ark. But if a corporate-owned park like Kings Island starts flaunting it's upcoming, brand new dark ride, it better be more than gags behind cages and dim lighting and a musty smell (with all due respect to those older rides, haha). If a new, large park that usually displays additions of $10 million + announces a dark ride, people expect it to be a shooting ride at the least. Typically, I would say that I expect something more than that, even, whether it be a roller coaster dark ride like The Dark Knight, or something new and intensely themed like Tomb Raider - a hybrid dark ride like Spiderman or DarKastle would be ideal.

And realistically, those can't be all that expensive. I have heard that each SCOOP vehicle from Spiderman cost about a million dollars. Of course, it was a prototype, and even Intamin today makes a version of that hybrid dark ride that I'm sure would be a lot less expensive. In the case of DarKastle, there's actually not even that much lighting, props, flames, etc. - it really is about 90% 3-D screens. For that, I'm sure, the bulk of money goes into engineering the 3-D film from scratch, etc. And of course, given Cedar Fair's penchant for theme, I can't honestly imagine what they might theme such a ride around. Now, if it were at Cedar Point, I can see a Pirate themed one, because it brings back some of the history of the park and the placement is appropriate. But at Kings Island, it could go anywhere - dinosaurs? I don't know, nothing actually sounds "right," you know? Now if it were still Paramount, I honestly can imagine a "Tomb Raider" hybrid dark ride, combining the great "temple" sets used in The Crypt's queue and on rides like Disneyland's Indiana Jones.

What's difficult about the hybrid dark ride is how to theme it, after all... Spiderman set a precedent, and to me, I just couldn't imagine any other ride taking advantage of the system's capabilities. I believe psychologists call it "functional fixedness," where you overlook the obvious secondary functions of something because you're so used to the primary function. What other theme can have you traveling from one "villainous" scene to another, feature great theme like water and fire, make use of 3-D, and culminate in a fall? I could've sat for days and never thought of anything, because "superhero" was the only thing that made sense. Now, I can only imagine superheroes and haunted castles... I can't figure out anything else that would work really, really well (except, as I said, Pirates, and even then, I don't have any specific ideas), but I'm sure once a new one opens, I'll allow that into my perception, too.

The way Tomb Raider was originally marketed, you would've been hard-pressed to believe it was a clone of Spider-Man.

And, in all honesty, the fact that Busch Gardens Williamsburg has a 4-D dark ride means that it's open for almost any seasonal park to get one. Would it be feasible to get a technologically-groundbreaking ride put amongst a bunch of "carnie" rides and wooden coasters? Not really. But they really are some wicked rides.

I've edited my first post with slightly more accurate information.

Goodyellowkorn182, I'd suggest that you look through some videos on the website I posted (if you haven't yet) and (if you enjoy haunted attractions) walk through The Dent Schoolhouse. Some of those animatronics are, and I mean it, more realistic than most of the new Horror and/or Science Fiction movies I've seen.

Animatronic technology has gotten to a point that 3d screens are, in many cases, less realistic. I know this sounds crazy to most people...

You can't fully understand until you walk through the new- 2009 Dent Schoolhouse or any haunted house of similar quality. And, for all you Halloween Haunt fans, Massacre Manor is fun, but doesn't come anywhere close.

It's mainly because Hollywood kicked all the special effects artists out of the business in favor of computer-generated special effects. Those same special effect artists are now working with haunted house companies to create animatronics and props that rival that of Hollywood (unfortunately, some companies are also going the CGI route with Halloween props).

[bkroz]

But then again, Busch Gardens Williamsburg might as well not be seasonal... After all, it charges more than any other seasonal park in the nation, stays open for Halloween and Christmas, and is the only major park out of the big seven owned by its operator that isn't open all year long. So basically, all of its sister parks are making money all the way around the calender, and Williamsburg probably gets an equal cut of the profits (even though it operates far less).

And, how many seasonal parks are of the same caliber of Busch Gardens Williamsburg? In my casual, limited, haven't-traveled-much-and-have-never-been-to-a-Six-Flags-outside-of-Ohio opinion, none... It's treated by its owners as an annual-operation park that needs to compete with other annual-operation parks like Universal and Disney. And in my opinion, it could.

I've edited my first post with slightly more accurate information.

Goodyellowkorn182, I'd suggest that you look through some videos on the website I posted (if you haven't yet), or (if you enjoy haunted attractions) walk through The Dent Schoolhouse. Some of those animatronics are, and I mean it, more realistic than most of the new Horror and/or Science Fiction movies I've seen.

Animatronic technology has gotten to a point that 3d screens are, in many cases, less realistic. I know this sounds crazy to most people...

You can't fully understand until you walk through the new- 2009 Dent Schoolhouse or any haunted house of similar quality. And, for all you Halloween Haunt fans, Massacre Manor is fun, but doesn't come anywhere close.

And you're absolutely right. However, so much of the "realistic animatronic" market is geared towards Halloween, haunted houses, etc. Let's suspend reality and say that Paramount wanted to create a more "traditional" dark ride (in other words, using a track through a building with various props and effects). What could they have found to replicate the experience of traversing a tomb? Look at DarKastle - the library, the suits of armor, the wolves, the tornado, the music room... It would be almost impractical to try to build that experience physically. Especially Spiderman. Without the technology present in the ride, it would not be world-famous. In fact, there is

up in Clifton Hill at Niagara Falls that uses physical props and a traditional ride system instead of the hybrid ride... It's just not the same, because there's a limitation.

Yes, the animatronic props at that site are incredible (and I start to sweat if I even think about encountering one in the dark - and no, I do not and will not visit the Dent Schoolhouse, as I am not a haunted attraction kind of guy ) but they're restricted by genre, and by experience. On a traditional dark ride, or a walk-through, they'd be terrifying. But there is no kind of physical prop that can replicate Spiderman or DarKastle because of the motion simulation aspect, and in those cases, 3D truly is the only way to go.

[raptor]

I ain't saying there's anything wrong with it, many people like that stuff, I just personally do not. Most of the new rides were always named after Movies, they left the old rides that predated Paramounts alone, but new rides tended to revolve around movies and were created that way. Don't forget the Paramount's Story, and the music was mostly Paramount movie songs weren't they, I just personally don't care for it, but that's just me, I just like carnival atmosphere.

[markr]

Remember, there was also a KI that existed pre-1993 before Paramount entered the picture. Many of you on this site are either too young to remember or weren't born yet. KI to me just had such a magic in those years. Its not that I "hated" the Paramount years but the movie theming over all just didn't feel right.

[bkroz]

And that's what it's based on for so many people - the Kings Island you knew, especially when you were younger, will usually be the Kings Island you prefer. For me, my memories all involve Paramount's Kings Island - even the name just sounds epic, like it should be spoken by the deep voice of the movie-trailer guy. My visits always meant grand music on International Street; the isolated, dark, shaded Rivertown; Tomb Raider & the Italian Job with music, water, & flames... For my friends who I have only begun taking in the past couple of years, I'm sure they'd be content with the Kings Island of today (if I didn't talk-up Paramount's Kings Island quite as much as I do).

Someone who remembers such great childhood memories with friends & relatives at Paramount's Kings Island is always going to glorify those days. Why do I recall Tomb Raider, and specific conversations, and specific feelings I had at Paramount's Kings Island, but do not recall a single trashcan being overflowed, or any long lines, or any rude employees? Because my trips have been romanticized by my memory. That's what everyone does. For some, their best memories were during the Paramount era. For others, before. And for still others, after. Such is life.

[Browntggrr]

Did I hate the Paramount KI era? No. Hate is a rather strong word. I am more disappointed with their ownership compared to the previous owners.

That said, I consider it a time where the park had a status quo feel. With a few exceptions, the park did not continuously improve like other parks. Their additions did not make up for their subtractions.

[Gordon Bombay]

It's 2:30 AM. I'm watching Star Trek Voyager. I just want Klingons back on International Street.

[TylerRider]

I think Tomb Raider, as it stood in 2002, was well worth having a 'big ugly box' in Rivertown.

I like how everybody calls it "the big ugly box." Nothing is ugly about it. It is just a normal box.

[KIMonster14]

I think Tomb Raider, as it stood in 2002, was well worth having a 'big ugly box' in Rivertown.

I like how everybody calls it "the big ugly box." Nothing is ugly about it. It is just a normal box.

I think youre right. Its on the inside that counts....lol

[jzarley]

And that's what it's based on for so many people - the Kings Island you knew, especially when you were younger, will usually be the Kings Island you prefer.

Agreed...it's all about your frame of reference. That's why in my mind, the Kings Island of the mid 70s-early 80s will always be the "best." (It's also why I still think the old COSI out on Broad St is better than the new COSI--even though the new one is vastly superior in about every way imaginable )

[muppetfan1999]

^ On a quick and random side note, I love COSI!!

[bkroz]

Oh my God COSI is the best place on Earth. I have only been to the new one, and would count it as equal to some and superior than most amusement parks. Oceans? Adventure? Gadgets? I'm in love.

[Pagoda Gift Shop]

I like how everybody calls it "the big ugly box." Nothing is ugly about it. It is just a normal box.

A giant beige warehouse building isn't ugly? In an amusement park which is designed and landscaped to be visually appealing?

I think it really has more to do with its location that anything else. It is pretty close to the midway since it replaced the log flume drop area. Flight of Fear was at least built further off the midway where it can't be seen.

[bkroz]

Yeah. But when it first became The Crypt (and was still performing its nine-flip cycle) the big hub-bub was that the building should be removed entirely since it served no purpose anymore, and only disguised how thrilling the ride was from people who might be interested if they knew.

When people were suggesting that the box be removed, I just laughed. Even when it was performing that intense cycle, it still would've been an eyesore to be outdoors. Especially since it's awkwardly facing towards The Beast's station. If it were facing the midway (even set a ways back from the path as it is) and surrounding in rock work, flames, waterfalls, and jungle flora like Kings Dominion's it would be acceptable. But to have it outdoors, literally just sitting on a concrete slab in a field and performing such a lackluster cycle? Talk about a walk-on...

Of course, since then, the building became almost necessary just to disguise how un-thrilling it is... One might argue that if the ride were outdoors, it would have been removed by now. For the most part, the people in line today are there because they:

• have never heard of it,
  
• still think it's similar to Tomb Raider, just a changed name
  
• want to see how bad it is from what their friends have said,
  
• are enjoying the air-conditioned, and/or
  
• can't tell from outside how the ride is lacking in thrills & theme.
  

[Pagoda Gift Shop]

So what theming still exists in the actual ride building? Is everything on the ceiling/floors/walls gone?

I kinda wonder if the building itself might be of more value to the park than the actual ride. It was useful for the 1 year Winterfest return, as it was where they stored many of the floats, etc. to keep them out of the weather. Of course, it is a bit taller than probably necessary, but still, it is a large building you can store things in.

Of all the buildings that need to be removed/reused at Kings Island, I don't think The Crypt is number one. I would have to say that is the Action Theater which seems to be on its last leg. Opening only one side of the theater, showing a 7 year old SpongeBob movie, you have to believe that Haunt is one of the major reasons it is still there. That and the fact that it is also good for storage. What do you do with it long term though? I think that is part of what makes the final WindSeeker location interesting.

[bkroz]

So what theming still exists in the actual ride building? Is everything on the ceiling/floors/walls gone?

Inside the ride chamber, the entire front wall is the goddess (because she literally is the wall, I don't believe she's removable in any sense - the little trap doors on the back of the building as seen from The Beast's queue are for direct installation of her eyes, fire, and ice). The chamber also still has the volcano stretching up the back wall and the former "lava pits" and stalactites. The rest of the faux temple walls, & the floor-level props are gone. Many effects, like the sparkers and fountains and sound systems, were faltering before Tomb Raider was renamed.

[Jasper]

You mentioned something about the Tomb Raider score. Do you have that somewhere? Does it include the pre-show, pre-ride, and ride music?

I also haven't seen too many "good" videos of the actual ride in 2002. I thought I saw an "unapproved" one on youtube somewhere.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060712074043/www.pkiasylum.com/features/pkitunes/pkitunes.html

You just made my day, you have no idea how long I have been looking to find out where I got these at a long time ago. I just wish they had the Flight of Fear Hangar audio with the television film's audio on it. I love that story line no matter how many times I ride FOF.

Back on topic, I was more of a fan of Paramount day's. It felt like it was a vacation every time you went to PKI (Yes I said it). I always loved going over to HBL and seeing Captain Caveman, Fred Flintstone, Scooby Doo, and other characters. Then you could venture on over to the Antique Cars, or go over to Vortex which was a landmark at the park IMO back then. It just felt like it was such a magical place to go and visit, with your family and friends. When Cedar Fair bought them out it changed a lot for me. That is not to say I still do not like to go, I love KI, it's my home park and still my favorite park. I just loved the Paramount Days personally, I felt like the place was a magical sort of thing to visit.

[The Interpreter]

One of the best threads ever here.

I promised myself in five years I'd bring it back....