patsum Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XGatorHead 8904 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Calling goodyellowkorn... Calling goodyellowkorn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Welcome to KIC!!! Wow, you are really passionate about the Crypt! I bet you have great ideas, call: (513) 754 5700 (push 0 for a human) that's their customer service line. They should be able to get your message into the right hands. While your on the phone, please ask them to also consider opening Beast and DB for ERT as often as possible. Thanks. Good Luck!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedarPointer Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 While your on the phone, please ask them to also consider opening Beast and DB for ERT as often as possible. Thanks. Good Luck!! Seriously, this topic has NOTHING to do with Diamondback or Beast. I'd like to see some upgrades on Crypt, but I'd like to see a new ride even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkroz Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Calling goodyellowkorn... Calling goodyellowkorn... Thanks bud! I have arrived. I don't know that any of us here are privy to the exact specifications of the transaction that went on between CBS' Paramount Parks and Cedar Fair. One story that I was given by a high-ranking employee at Kings Island (whose position was not seasonal in nature - no Dippin Dots guys) is that for whatever reason, when it came to Tomb Raider: The Ride, the transition from a ride with an intellectual property to one without meant not just a change in name. Perhaps because Tomb Raider was so intricately themed, that particular transformation required not just a simple removal of the film props, but near-abandonment of the very concept of the ride: an ancient temple, a search for a lost treasure, a deity. The new, Cedar Fair version of the ride was required to lose not only the movie props, but the idea of searching for something; of excavating a tomb; of a goddess and ancient powers. Again, I would consider my source reliable, but by no means do I claim that that is that only (or even most important) reason for any switches that occurred. But if that is true, you must admit that they were actually pretty smart about it... How do you take a ride in a cave with a temple-like structure in its queue and some obvious rock work and columns in the ride chamber and remove any sort of connection to an ancient culture or a religious temple or an adventurous expedition? In all fairness, the idea of a "crypt," or a haunted burial chamber, is truly about the best idea I can imagine... I certainly couldn't come up with anything better that uses as much of the old ride as possible while also removing as much as needed. I personally made a discussion thread on Kings Island's Facebook page for people to really post realistic, cheap ideas about how to improve The Crypt. We came up with a very succinct and reasonable list. Whoever it is at the park who operates the Facebook page even got in contact with me concerning some of those ideas and gave me a phone number to call. I called. That's as far as that went. I think every other problem that the Crypt has is a direct result of the terrible ride system. I'm not sure how much you know about the mechanics behind the ride, patsum, but our Crypt is the world's only Giant Top Spin. It's manufactured by a company called HUSS that also built Kings Island's Delirium (which is also from their Giant line of attractions - it's a Giant Frisbee). You've doubtlessly seen plenty of outdoor Top Spins in your travels or just browsing through trip reports. Many parks have them. Most models hold between 46 and 50 riders in two rows. Ours held 77. It was far less acrobatic and much larger, taller, and heavier than the other models, which was a-okay, because it didn't do as many flips as other rides. If you rode the original Tomb Raider, you know that it was actually very tame, only flipping upside down four times. In comparison, (one of the smaller, suspended models) flips nine times, which seems pretty standard for most Top Spins. Though we certainly can't claim causality (thanks Terp), we know that the same season that the themeing left, the ride's front row was removed (lowering its capacity to be far closer to a normal top spin, but still maintaining a much greater arm length and height) and it began performing that same nine flip cycle that many other top spins have. It would seem (though we do not know the reasoning for sure) that the much-more-intense nine-flip cycle placed some sort of stress on the ride that was not anticipated, and may or may not be the reason for its current two-flip cycle. As you know, the ride now operates with a ride cycle that is very, very tame. It also has none of the effects left over from the Tomb Raider days (which, understand, were faltering even in the last years under Paramount - upkeep of effects was never their strong point). That same source at Kings Island who told me the story of its transformation also reminded me: "there is a reason that they only built one [Giant Top Spin]." The ride mechanism itself operates today with two-thirds its original capacity, and arguably the most dull cycle of movements of any top spin on Earth. There is a reason for that. If our ride had little downtime, and operated the way it was supposed to, I really truly think that the themeing would've been a priority. After all, look at Firefall at Great America, which Cedar Fair oversaw the theming for. But when the ride is barely operating, all of the theme is just one more thing to worry about. When the rising wall wouldn't open, or cell phones fell in the "lava," and lights went out... It's more trouble than its worth when the ride itself is barely operable. Perhaps if Great America closes, their Top Spin 1 (Firefall, which I linked to above) will find a new happy home in Rivertown, Ohio. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldschool75 Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I say just tear the building down and leave the ride. I think flipping outdoors is better than in a dark building that you really can't see much. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjkjkj Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Brian5475E, that would be a good idea, but I have read on these forums multiple times that The Crypt would not be able to run outdoors. Since it was never designed to run outside, it would have MAJOR problems if they tore down the building and tried to run it outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkroz Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Besides that, at least the ride does have a synchronized light show, a bit of music, disorientation effects from the darkness, and a sense of mystery. As an outdoor ride, it would not only be setting way back from the path and angled right at The Beast's break run (woohoo?) but it would also be painfully obvious to onlookers just how slow it is. If you think it's a boring ride when it takes place in darkness with pulsating lights, surrounded in a fake volcano, under the eyes of a still-visible Hindu goddess, and after a reasonably fun build-up in the queue, imagine how awful it would be with no one laughing, no one shrieking, no one riding, facing off into the woods a good fifty feet from the nearest onlooker. Again... woohoo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 It is to be hoped that Beast does not even have a break run. Some, like dare-to-fly, hope it doesn't even have a brake run...but that's another story for another day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TombRaiderFTW Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Calling goodyellowkorn... Calling goodyellowkorn... I was SO about to post something like "shouldn't his username be Son of Goodyellowkorn" (or some equally snarky comment). I can't believe someone beat me to the punch! Darn you, work schedule... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. America Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 While your on the phone, please ask them to also consider opening Beast and DB for ERT as often as possible. Thanks. Good Luck!! Seriously, this topic has NOTHING to do with Diamondback or Beast. I'd like to see some upgrades on Crypt, but I'd like to see a new ride even more. Beat me to it. Glad I'm not the only one who has this kind of image come to mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patsum Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotag Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Brian5475E, that would be a good idea, but I have read on these forums multiple times that The Crypt would not be able to run outdoors. Since it was never designed to run outside, it would have MAJOR problems if they tore down the building and tried to run it outside. the one @ kings dominion is still runnin outside with fire effects added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 The one at KD is not a giant topspin and was designed to run outside. The one at KI is a giant topspin and was never designed to run exposed to the elements. Even the waterspray from below not only annoyed guests but also the ride mechanism. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkroz Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 You make good points, but I feel like most were already addressed - the ride (allegedly) cannot have a theme even mildly related to Tomb Raider. That means no "adventure," no "quest for an ancient treasure," no "attacking goddess," etc. Walt Disney Parks and Resorts has the right to use the Indiana Jones franchise in its amusement parks (a license which they purchased from Paramount, ironically). I shudder to think what it would cost them to bring him to Kings Island. And again, our Giant Top Spin seems to be a failure. As I said, it is not simply a matter of reprogramming it to be more thrilling. Remember that it did flip nine times. It doesn't anymore. While the reason was not officially stated, I challenge to you to imagine what that reason might be - because they wanted a more family friendly ride (in which case, they would've marketed it as such, and reduced the rider safety symbol from a 5, which they did not)? The ride system was already faltering when performing its Tomb Raider: The Ride cycle. As you may have read, it's a very complex machine made of a system of breaks and motors. Basically, motors power the giant arms (and breaks slow them), while holding breaks can grasp the gondola, locking it in place (or release it, and allow gravity and the choreographed motion of the arms to flip it). Naturally, there are sensors located at every step of the machine to make the ride is exactly where it's supposed to be. For Tomb Raider, the problem occurred as it entered the "hangtime" scene over the lava pits. For whatever reason, the braking of the gondola could never catch quite right, the computer would freak out, and the ride would go into manual mode (which, I have come to understand, just means that the computer tries desperately to get the gondola back into the right position by trying out a variety of locking and unlocking and moving slightly back and forth - sort of the same elongated process you see as The Crypt's current cycle ends and it tries to find its home position to unload). So again I say, our ride system is faulty. It doesn't work the way it originally did. My guess is exactly what I said - that it was meant to be nothing more than a three-rowed, tiered theater that just happened to hold you upside down a few times. In an effort to make it more thrilling, Cedar Fair removed a row. While I'm sure HUSS oversaw that change and approved it, it still put a much different stress on the already-taxed ride. It held two-thirds as many people, had a different center-of-gravity, and was performing cycles meant for much smaller, more aerodynamic models. As far as I can imagine, that alone brought the internal systems of the ride to such a point that it simply cannot do more than its current two-flip cycle and still stay reliable. If they could add in even one more flip to increase the ride time and rider satisfaction, don't you think they would? But they don't... I hate what the ride has become. I'd do almost anything to get another ride on Tomb Raider. I think we were blessed by the roller coaster deities for ever being lucky enough to have such a ride in some little seasonal Ohio park. I think that not having it (and indeed, having the Crypt instead) makes the entire park feel different to me. I hate that I can be so close to the lava pits and the goddess and the rolling door. I think some people don't understand - imagine your favorite roller coaster being torn down. I know Terpy has been there. It's awful. But imagine your favorite roller coaster getting renamed, re-painted, losing the aspects of it you loved the most, and getting old, refurbished TOGO trains. I mean, really. That's how it feels. But with a ride that barely works, I wouldn't invest money in unnecessary theme, either. It'll break down just like the ride does. Plus, as Terpy said, the water killed the ride, and the building isn't capable of having open flames. Altogether it seems to add up to The Crypt just not going on much longer. We know it. They know it. Kings Island will not have the same Crypt in 2021. It just won't. So why funnel money into it as is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Tomb Raider: The Ride...it's a very complex machine made of a system of breaks and motors. ... Freudian slip? Anyway, recently it has had a lot less downtown, as the KI Blog so aptly told us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrill_Biscuit Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Tomb Raider: The Ride...it's a very complex machine made of a system of breaks and motors. ... Freudian slip? Anyway, recently it has had a lot less downtown, as the KI Blog so aptly told us... Oh, give the guy a brake. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patsum Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjkjkj Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 It is my understanding that they bring in someone from HUSS to reprogram the ride. It is also my understanding that the ride was originally supposed to have a different type of braking system on it. HUSS recommended a specific type of brakes ( I can't remember what type), but Paramount decided to save money and go with a cheaper braking system. This could have ultimately been the downfall of what was once Tomb Raider: The Ride Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 And for lack of manufacturer recommended braking, it was always breaking? Hardly breaking news, but it does put a brake on many other ideas, doesn't it? Uh...I'll stop now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSalsa Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Umm...about the "how much it would cost to bring Indiana Jones to KI" thing Goodyellowcorn brought up, Adventure Express is ALREADY themed to be a generic Indiana Jones ride. It actually sometimes plays the theme song in the Q-Line (it did when I visisted on May 8th 2010 and I remember it well), and there is a "Indiana Jones skeleton" in one of the tunnels. And you even "disturb a forbidden temple" and "have fake lava dumped on your head". Just thought this would be worth bringing up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 It is the park's story, and always has been, that any similarities are purely coincidental. It was not licensed, and thus why it did not change as/after Paramount left the park. (Note also the installation pre-dated the Paramount acquisition. Good old Carl Lindner...see also Phantom of the Opera....or not) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSalsa Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 It is the park's story, and always has been, that any similarities are purely coincidental. It was not licensed, and thus why it did not change as Paramount left the park. I know, I just felt it should have been brought up that, yes Adventure Express is Indiana Jones themed- just not officially, it's a "generic" version. It was clearly inspired by Indiana Jones, however. I just wonder how they get away with using the theme song. Unless the song is one of those "free to use" songs...or something like that. Then it makes perfect sense to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Song licensing is totally legally separate from theming licensing. Anyone who pays the royalties to play licensed music can play any licensed music. Much of the movie music played in the park during the Paramount era was from non-Paramount movies, just as you can hear songs from Paramount movies at Disney, Universal, Holiday World or Camden Park. Rights licensing is a very specialized area of law, and many practitioners do not really understand it very well. In addition, that area of law has changed quite a bit in recent years. "Free to use" songs are in the public domain, but even then the performance may not be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSalsa Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Song licensing is totally legally separate from theming licensing. Anyone who pays the royalties to play licensed music can play any licensed music. Much of the movie music played in the park during the Paramount era was from non-Paramount movies, just as you can hear songs from Paramount movies at Disney, Universal, Holiday World or Camden Park. Rights licensing is a very specialized area of law, and many practitioners do not really understand it very well. In addition, that area of law has changed quite a bit in recent years. "Free to use" songs are in the public domain, but even then the performance may not be... OK, thanks to Terpy. I see now. Oh...this also explains the X-Files theme being played on The Raven when I visited Holiday World last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delirium13 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 ^^ Which is why its such a shame they've stopped playing the movie scores on International Street, it just gave it a more majestic feeling and they didn't have to stop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Not only did they not have to stop, they started playing some of that very same loop...at Worlds of Fun. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastersRZ Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 And who is it that selects the soundtrack/songs that are used at the parks? I too miss the classical/movie soundtrack that was played on International Street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I'd say it varies from park to park and chain to chain. In Cedar Fair's case, it would not surprise me if Sandusky had input...even Mr. Kinzel himself. Both at Cedar Point and Kings Island, they seem to prefer 80's and 90's pop/bland stuff. Then there was that very short loop of beach music in the waterpark... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastersRZ Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 And apparently now, they play no beach or summer oriented music at all in the water park, and play rock and roll only. At least they do not have a theme song like Coney does. They play that jingle every morning after Sunlite Pool opens, and after every live show in Lakeside Pavilion. "Coney Has It! Yeah, yeah yeah!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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