Paramount Winterfest Discussion

[BeeastFarmer]

3 hours ago, BoddaH1994 said:

If by “the time was right” you mean “they got a new CEO that didn’t let the inmates run the asylum” then you’d be correct. 

Can you expound on this a little bit?

[BoddaH1994]

2 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

Can you expound on this a little bit?

The whole story is for another day.

But on the surface level, isn’t the fact that Winterfest went from “it just didn’t work” to wildly successful a little odd to you? 
 

The people running the show were some of the best in the industry. Now they’re CEOs, park presidents, marketing directors, corporate people, etc. They couldn’t figure it out? 
 

A decade later, a new CEO comes in and really gives the chain no choice and all of a sudden it’s all figured out? You honestly expect me to buy that?

[BeeastFarmer]

2 hours ago, BoddaH1994 said:

The whole story is for another day.

But on the surface level, isn’t the fact that Winterfest went from “it just didn’t work” to wildly successful a little odd to you? 
 

The people running the show were some of the best in the industry. Now they’re CEOs, park presidents, marketing directors, corporate people, etc. They couldn’t figure it out? 
 

A decade later, a new CEO comes in and really gives the chain no choice and all of a sudden it’s all figured out? You honestly expect me to buy that?

You are more knowledgeable about the park than I am (or ever will be!), so your response raises more questions than it answers.  My perspective:

 

Kinzel buys Paramount Parks, taking on massive debt during a severe economic downturn that takes years to correct.  Parks are turned generic and run cheaply.

Kinzel leaves and is replaced by Ouimet who wants to restore "magic" to the entire chain.  Positive changes take place.

Ouimet retires as CEO and becomes board chairman.  New CEO is former KI park president who oversaw removal of lots off Taft charm in favor of things like Scooby Doo dark ride, Delerium, Tomb Raider and Junkyard Coaster.  KI's GM announces Mystic Timbers, a very highly themed coaster and the return of Winterfest.  He gets promoted and Mike Koontz comes in and begins a massive overhaul to restore KI to a modern day "Taft" park, relying on lots of nostalgia.

Corporate , at the same time, says be prepared for older, labor intensive rides that also cost money will leave.  A year later, the parks will become more focused on experience and larger investements will be more spread out.

 

Winterfest has puzzled me as to how it was deemed a failure under Paramount's one year staging.  Seems to me that they put not just money but a lot of effort into it.  That was carried into Grand Carnivale (Winterfest in the summer?) 

 

[super7]

IMO the previous failure of Winterfest was because of the lack of any rides and only having a small part of the park open.   
 

The most recent version of Winterfest basically follows Busch Gardens formula that worked and grew over a decade.   Limited rides including  some coasters, live entertainment (although Cedar Fair went with quantity over quality in this dept) and lights all over the park.  
 

IMO Mystic Timbers was designed with Winterfest in mind.  Low to the ground with less chance to valley in cold temps.  

[Shaggy]

2 hours ago, super7 said:

IMO the previous failure of Winterfest was because of the lack of any rides and only having a small part of the park open.   
 

The most recent version of Winterfest basically follows Busch Gardens formula that worked and grew over a decade.   Limited rides including  some coasters, live entertainment (although Cedar Fair went with quantity over quality in this dept) and lights all over the park.  
 

IMO Mystic Timbers was designed with Winterfest in mind.  Low to the ground with less chance to valley in cold temps.  

And if memory serves me, it was an additional cost - not free with Season passes.

I only went once to the 2005 version of WF... and that was the media preview.  It was well done (specifically the live entertainment) but there wasn't enough to pull me back in for secondary or multiple visits.  The "look" of 2005 WF was a bit thin.... there wasn't even 1/3 of the lights, sights and sounds of the current WF (see the pic I took below.)  I would suspect that had Paramount continued ownership, the event would have returned in 2006 (and likely "tweaked" and grown.) However, by the end of the Paramount tenure, Viacom was essentially "done" with the park system.  They shuffled them off to CBS who wanted nothing to do with them.  So the parks weren't getting a lot of corporate support around the time of the re-introduction of WF in 2005.

I will say, however, the current CF version of the tree lighting ceremony is entertaining, but doesn't hold a candle to the visual way they did it during the original incarnation in 1982-1992 and then again in 2005.  When the switch was thrown - by Santa - a sparkling rocket shot from the end of the fountains all the way to the top of the tower.  The star then illuminated, then the entire "tree."  It was a major "oooooh ahhhhh" effect.

 

[Shaggy]

33 minutes ago, Shaggy said:

I will say, however, the current CF version of the tree lighting ceremony is entertaining but it doesn't hold a candle to the visual way they did it during the original incarnation in 1982-1992 and then again in 2005.  When the switch was thrown - by Santa - a sparkling rocket shot from the end of the fountains all the way to the top of the tower.  The star then illuminated, then the entire "tree."  It was a major "oooooh ahhhhh" effect.

 

 

2005 "Tree Lighting" ceremony.  Terrible quality, but you get the idea.  (Pre-smart phones)

 

[KIghostguy]

1 hour ago, Shaggy said:

And if memory serves me, it was an additional cost - not free with Season passes.

This is exactly right--the extra cost for pass holders coupled with a very cold winter that year led to a "very bad" attendance at both Kings Island and Carowinds. The Charlotte Observer titled their Carowinds Winterfest piece, "Walking in Empty Wonderland."

Paramount Parks planned to continue the event, but once Cedar Fair purchased it, Kinzel and co. took one look at the numbers from the year before and decided to cancel it. The company was $1.24 billion in debt; I can't say I really blame them at the time.

[super7]

2 hours ago, Shaggy said:

And if memory serves me, it was an additional cost - not free with Season passes.

I only went once to the 2005 version of WF... and that was the media preview.  It was well done (specifically the live entertainment) but there wasn't enough to pull me back in for secondary or multiple visits.  The "look" of 2005 WF was a bit thin.... there wasn't even 1/3 of the lights, sights and sounds of the current WF (see the pic I took below.)  I would suspect that had Paramount continued ownership, the event would have returned in 2006 (and likely "tweaked" and grown.) However, by the end of the Paramount tenure, Viacom was essentially "done" with the park system.  They shuffled them off to CBS who wanted nothing to do with them.  So the parks weren't getting a lot of corporate support around the time of the re-introduction of WF in 2005.

I will say, however, the current CF version of the tree lighting ceremony is entertaining, but doesn't hold a candle to the visual way they did it during the original incarnation in 1982-1992 and then again in 2005.  When the switch was thrown - by Santa - a sparkling rocket shot from the end of the fountains all the way to the top of the tower.  The star then illuminated, then the entire "tree."  It was a major "oooooh ahhhhh" effect.

 

This is a great point that i forgot about.  And it also makes me question just how profitable Winterfest actually is despite the great attendance.   If it is just regurgitating the same non-paying season passholders, then it isn't making what it would seem.   With the short 5 hour nights, there isn't really enough time to encourage in-park sales (hunger, thirst etc)

 

IMO Cedar Fair should have made Winterfest a $25 add on to the season pass.  Nobody would have blinked.    But I also think KECO was idiotic including the water park in one gate.......

Maybe they are headed that direction with the $99 Cedar Point pass that doesn't include Haunt.
 

[Benjamin22]

10 minutes ago, super7 said:

This is a great point that i forgot about.  And it also makes me question just how profitable Winterfest actually is despite the great attendance.   If it is just regurgitating the same non-paying season passholders, then it isn't making what it would seem.   With the short 5 hour nights, there isn't really enough time to encourage in-park sales (hunger, thirst etc)

 

IMO Cedar Fair should have made Winterfest a $25 add on to the season pass.  Nobody would have blinked.    But I also think KECO was idiotic including the water park in one gate.......

Maybe they are headed that direction with the $99 Cedar Point pass that doesn't include Haunt.
 

Winterfest offers a ton of up charge attractions that certainly help mitigate the aspects you’ve talked about here. Ice skating, carriage rides, igloos etc all offer revenue for the park.  In regards to the waterpark when I don’t see the issue including it with admission, if the park really wanted to they could easily charge extra for it ad the waterpark is already separated. 

[super7]

1 hour ago, Benjamin22 said:

Winterfest offers a ton of up charge attractions that certainly help mitigate the aspects you’ve talked about here. Ice skating, carriage rides, igloos etc all offer revenue for the park.  In regards to the waterpark when I don’t see the issue including it with admission, if the park really wanted to they could easily charge extra for it ad the waterpark is already separated. 

Nobody that wanted water park admission would blink an eye at an extra $25 upcharge on an annual season pass for that benefit IMO if it was a separate gate    Especially when the otger option was The Beach and whatever the annual price was there. 
 

That would have been a ton of extra revenue over the years.      But once something is given away for nothing! It’s hard to start charging for it…..

 

The Winterfest upcharge attractions are low capacity.  They are extra revenue but not huge.    People on season dining plans don’t even spend money on food at Winterfest.    

[BoddaH1994]

5 hours ago, Shaggy said:

2005 "Tree Lighting" ceremony.  Terrible quality, but you get the idea.  (Pre-smart phones)

 

I was gonna say.... the pyro thing (when it worked) was really cool! Of course, it was just a family that helped Santa throw the switch. Now we have a show, and a good one at that!

2 hours ago, super7 said:

This is a great point that i forgot about.  And it also makes me question just how profitable Winterfest actually is despite the great attendance.   If it is just regurgitating the same non-paying season passholders, then it isn't making what it would seem.   With the short 5 hour nights, there isn't really enough time to encourage in-park sales (hunger, thirst etc)

 

IMO Cedar Fair should have made Winterfest a $25 add on to the season pass.  Nobody would have blinked.    But I also think KECO was idiotic including the water park in one gate.......

Maybe they are headed that direction with the $99 Cedar Point pass that doesn't include Haunt.
 

It's profitable. Or it would be gone by now. They run a business, not a charity.

I'm all for raising the price of passes. The problem is, they would take an attendance hit and you know there would be enough dolts out there that would freak out and begin throwing BAF days and discounted tickets to offset it, thus creating the issues that cheap season passes cause anyway.

4 hours ago, KIghostguy said:

This is exactly right--the extra cost for pass holders coupled with a very cold winter that year led to a "very bad" attendance at both Kings Island and Carowinds. The Charlotte Observer titled their Carowinds Winterfest piece, "Walking in Empty Wonderland."

Paramount Parks planned to continue the event, but once Cedar Fair purchased it, Kinzel and co. took one look at the numbers from the year before and decided to cancel it. The company was $1.24 billion in debt; I can't say I really blame them at the time.

Again, with how good that crew was in 2004/05, you honestly think they wouldn't know that the up-charge isn't a pill that the season pass base wouldn't swallow?

 

16 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

You are more knowledgeable about the park than I am (or ever will be!), so your response raises more questions than it answers.  My perspective:

 

Kinzel buys Paramount Parks, taking on massive debt during a severe economic downturn that takes years to correct.  Parks are turned generic and run cheaply.

Kinzel leaves and is replaced by Ouimet who wants to restore "magic" to the entire chain.  Positive changes take place.

Ouimet retires as CEO and becomes board chairman.  New CEO is former KI park president who oversaw removal of lots off Taft charm in favor of things like Scooby Doo dark ride, Delerium, Tomb Raider and Junkyard Coaster.  KI's GM announces Mystic Timbers, a very highly themed coaster and the return of Winterfest.  He gets promoted and Mike Koontz comes in and begins a massive overhaul to restore KI to a modern day "Taft" park, relying on lots of nostalgia.

Corporate , at the same time, says be prepared for older, labor intensive rides that also cost money will leave.  A year later, the parks will become more focused on experience and larger investements will be more spread out.

 

Winterfest has puzzled me as to how it was deemed a failure under Paramount's one year staging.  Seems to me that they put not just money but a lot of effort into it.  That was carried into Grand Carnivale (Winterfest in the summer?) 

 

I think some people (and I'm not saying you particularly, but your post made me think of this) do not understand how the corporate world works. You are correct that Ouimet may be the person most responsible for Winterfest coming back. He made it clear that it was his intention. Honestly it was a matter of time. You mean the CF properties are sitting there for six weeks costing money when they could be making money? How long will the unit holders accept that?

Some things are decisions on the park level, others are on a corporate level. The cool thing about Cedar Fair being a publicly traded GLP is that there is some transparency to that. There are some top-down decisions that come from overall guest opinions and behaviors chain-wide. Grand Carnivale is a good example of this. Corporate figured out that there is a strong value in limited run events that drive attendance in the short term. That's where you began to see Grand Carnivale, Frontierfest, the State Line thing at Carowinds, and so on. How do I know? It was publicly disclosed as being their medium-term goal in their investor calls. So it's not that Tim Fischer likes this or Matt Ouimet hated that, it's about their fiduciary duty to maintain stability and profit.

I remember at Coasterstock a few years ago when it was reported that Mr Kuntz said that he "had requested" a giga coaster from corporate. I think his phraseology was simplified. 2020 was going to be a big capital year for the park no matter what. They decided a giga coaster would be the best way to leverage that investment. They could have added two smaller coasters or five flats if they wanted to. It was the park's decision to go the direction that they did. It depends on what the guests feedback is saying, along with some reasonable assumptions.

With that being said, when Matt Ouitmet said he planned to bring Winterfest to 8 or so properties, it wasn't because he loves Christmas. It's because it was important to increase the bottom line. There was a gaping void in the December month that needed to be filled. It was the direction of the entire company. They made a HUGE investment in it. For those who were there, they can make it work our they can be "open to work" on LinkedIn. That's just the nature of the business.

 

[Oldschool75]

10 hours ago, super7 said:

IMO the previous failure of Winterfest was because of the lack of any rides and only having a small part of the park open.   
 

The most recent version of Winterfest basically follows Busch Gardens formula that worked and grew over a decade.   Limited rides including  some coasters, live entertainment (although Cedar Fair went with quantity over quality in this dept) and lights all over the park.  
 

IMO Mystic Timbers was designed with Winterfest in mind.  Low to the ground with less chance to valley in cold temps.  

Actually the first year of Winterfest The Beast was open

[BeeastFarmer]

2 hours ago, BoddaH1994 said:

I was gonna say.... the pyro thing (when it worked) was really cool! Of course, it was just a family that helped Santa throw the switch. Now we have a show, and a good one at that!

It's profitable. Or it would be gone by now. They run a business, not a charity.

I'm all for raising the price of passes. The problem is, they would take an attendance hit and you know there would be enough dolts out there that would freak out and begin throwing BAF days and discounted tickets to offset it, thus creating the issues that cheap season passes cause anyway.

Again, with how good that crew was in 2004/05, you honestly think they wouldn't know that the up-charge isn't a pill that the season pass base wouldn't swallow?

 

I think some people (and I'm not saying you particularly, but your post made me think of this) do not understand how the corporate world works. You are correct that Ouimet may be the person most responsible for Winterfest coming back. He made it clear that it was his intention. Honestly it was a matter of time. You mean the CF properties are sitting there for six weeks costing money when they could be making money? How long will the unit holders accept that?

Some things are decisions on the park level, others are on a corporate level. The cool thing about Cedar Fair being a publicly traded GLP is that there is some transparency to that. There are some top-down decisions that come from overall guest opinions and behaviors chain-wide. Grand Carnivale is a good example of this. Corporate figured out that there is a strong value in limited run events that drive attendance in the short term. That's where you began to see Grand Carnivale, Frontierfest, the State Line thing at Carowinds, and so on. How do I know? It was publicly disclosed as being their medium-term goal in their investor calls. So it's not that Tim Fischer likes this or Matt Ouimet hated that, it's about their fiduciary duty to maintain stability and profit.

I remember at Coasterstock a few years ago when it was reported that Mr Kuntz said that he "had requested" a giga coaster from corporate. I think his phraseology was simplified. 2020 was going to be a big capital year for the park no matter what. They decided a giga coaster would be the best way to leverage that investment. They could have added two smaller coasters or five flats if they wanted to. It was the park's decision to go the direction that they did. It depends on what the guests feedback is saying, along with some reasonable assumptions.

With that being said, when Matt Ouitmet said he planned to bring Winterfest to 8 or so properties, it wasn't because he loves Christmas. It's because it was important to increase the bottom line. There was a gaping void in the December month that needed to be filled. It was the direction of the entire company. They made a HUGE investment in it. For those who were there, they can make it work our they can be "open to work" on LinkedIn. That's just the nature of the business.

 

I don't know the financials of WF, but from casual observance and experience from myself, money leaves the bank much easier at this time of year.  I have bought more merchandise and food in my visits, and since it's only 5 hours, I don't usually get 2 meals.  

Before WF, I remember a conversation here about extended seasons, open earlier for Spring Break like other parks do.  WF was laughed off as something that would  NEVER  return.  I was asked pointedly "What else do you expect them to do?" by a long time member here.  I just see empty parks for months out of the year and think of money that could be made, which I think the company evaluates as you said.

4 hours ago, super7 said:

 

The Winterfest upcharge attractions are low capacity.  They are extra revenue but not huge.    People on season dining plans don’t even spend money on food at Winterfest.    

Have you seen Snowflake Lake?  That is definately not low capacity!  If there are 1k skaters in a night, that is 15k top line revenue in one night, with minimal expense.  Have you seen how crowded SnowDay Buffet is?  How the IR is usually busy?  How many refillable hot beverage mugs, adult beverages and "treats" are sold?  

[BoddaH1994]

5 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said:

 

Have you seen Snowflake Lake?  That is definately not low capacity!  If there are 1k skaters in a night, that is 15k top line revenue in one night, with minimal expense.  Have you seen how crowded SnowDay Buffet is?  How the IR is usually busy?  How many refillable hot beverage mugs, adult beverages and "treats" are sold?  

Plus the merchandise. How many nights is it a reasonable 45 degrees at 4:30 and 29 at 8:00? How many Winterfest hats and gloves do they sell because of this? I know that rain is like liquid revenue during the Spring and Fall with hoodies and whatnot. 

[Snowball]

I think we need a WinterFest thread...

[IndyGuy4KI]

22 hours ago, Snowball said:

I think we need a WinterFest thread...

New thread made.

[super7]

On 4/12/2022 at 4:30 PM, BoddaH1994 said:

I was gonna say.... the pyro thing (when it worked) was really cool! Of course, it was just a family that helped Santa throw the switch. Now we have a show, and a good one at that!

It's profitable. Or it would be gone by now. They run a business, not a charity.

I'm all for raising the price of passes. The problem is, they would take an attendance hit and you know there would be enough dolts out there that would freak out and begin throwing BAF days and discounted tickets to offset it, thus creating the issues that cheap season passes cause anyway.

Again, with how good that crew was in 2004/05, you honestly think they wouldn't know that the up-charge isn't a pill that the season pass base wouldn't swallow?

 

I think some people (and I'm not saying you particularly, but your post made me think of this) do not understand how the corporate world works. You are correct that Ouimet may be the person most responsible for Winterfest coming back. He made it clear that it was his intention. Honestly it was a matter of time. You mean the CF properties are sitting there for six weeks costing money when they could be making money? How long will the unit holders accept that?

Some things are decisions on the park level, others are on a corporate level. The cool thing about Cedar Fair being a publicly traded GLP is that there is some transparency to that. There are some top-down decisions that come from overall guest opinions and behaviors chain-wide. Grand Carnivale is a good example of this. Corporate figured out that there is a strong value in limited run events that drive attendance in the short term. That's where you began to see Grand Carnivale, Frontierfest, the State Line thing at Carowinds, and so on. How do I know? It was publicly disclosed as being their medium-term goal in their investor calls. So it's not that Tim Fischer likes this or Matt Ouimet hated that, it's about their fiduciary duty to maintain stability and profit.

I remember at Coasterstock a few years ago when it was reported that Mr Kuntz said that he "had requested" a giga coaster from corporate. I think his phraseology was simplified. 2020 was going to be a big capital year for the park no matter what. They decided a giga coaster would be the best way to leverage that investment. They could have added two smaller coasters or five flats if they wanted to. It was the park's decision to go the direction that they did. It depends on what the guests feedback is saying, along with some reasonable assumptions.

With that being said, when Matt Ouitmet said he planned to bring Winterfest to 8 or so properties, it wasn't because he loves Christmas. It's because it was important to increase the bottom line. There was a gaping void in the December month that needed to be filled. It was the direction of the entire company. They made a HUGE investment in it. For those who were there, they can make it work our they can be "open to work" on LinkedIn. That's just the nature of the business.

 

I didn’t say it wasn’t profitable.   I just don’t think it rakes in the profits that correspond ti the attendance.     Season pass holders, which seem to be the target market for Cedar Fair, aren’t spending much at this event    No admission, no food or drink if on meal plan etc.  

 

 I know personally I don’t spend anything at that event.   there is no reason to. If you are on the meal plan you eat your meal and then you don’t even want one of their special food offerings because you are not hungry.

$15,000 in ice skating only makes up for appx 300 free admissions  and parking.   So it’s not much.  

This is the other reason that Cedar Fair LOVES to close parks early or entirely due to weather related low attendance.  
They already have the season pass holders money,  and if there are only season pass holders on these low attendance days they aren’t too worried about making them mad.   They are still going to buy the cheap season passes. 
 

I know personally I have been at Cedar Fair parks at least five times when they closed early or entirely due to low attendance. It definitely wasn’t because of the weather. The weather was not favorable but they could’ve operated.   KI doesn’t do it a lot,   It actually happened at Winterfest on my last trip there last year. It rained early, they announced the park would close early and then it didn’t rain the rest of the night.  
 

This whole season pass business model has led to less than stellar operations.  It used to be that amusement parks stayed open their entire advertise schedule. No matter what the weather was unless it was something super threatening like a tornado.     you did not have to look at the weather forecast when planning on going to amusement park because you knew they would operate.    Now they close early because they already have everyone’s money.  It amounts to false advertising IMO. 

There’s only two reasons to defend is practice. One if a person is local and hasn’t traveled very far. Two if people love their cheap season passes and don’t travel very far.   

This is the route they have chosen in their business model so it’s hard to back track.   Low priced seating passes and over crowded parks with people that don’t spend a lot on each visit.    Six Flags is trying to reverse that this year. We’ll see how that works. 
 

I would gladly pay more for a season pass if it meant parks would operate as they used to.   One wasted trip Is $50 in fuel these days.