What exactly IS Massacre Manor

[JAHill]

I know that fearfest was long ago, and is way far from now.. but I have never really understood what Massacre Manor is.. could somebody please give me a brief explanation?

[PKIDelirium]

It's a haunted house.

[CoastersRZ]

Last year, it was located in the back of the games building adjacent to the Scrambler. That haunt in 2005 was called R.L. Stine`s Fear Street. Prior to that, it was known as House of Darkness. The white tent that they used to have in the field next to the International Showplace prior to 2005 was where the original Massacre Manor was located. This past year, they didn`t utilize that location, but instead had Cowboy Carnage in some of the Rivertown shops.

[hauntguy]

Massacre Manor is your traditional gothic style haunted house. It was designed/build by Leonard Pickle... a haunted attraction industry personality (industry hack). Like mentioned before it was once called: RL Stines FearStreet, and, The House of Darkness...

The attraction is designed using the triangular grid pattern using 60 degree angles to twist the path of patrons... instead of your typical 90 degree angled walls.

In 2005 the haunt was completely renovated and updated with newer animations, scares, paint, detail, etc. All with the changes, the facade of the haunt was made to resemble more of a newer house. I personally think it should go back to the "creepy" broken down house facade.

In 2006 Massacre Manor had the biggest scareactor count of any other house. Of course, Massacre Manor was a LARGE improvement over previous and turned out to be one of the events best haunts.

Hope that helps. -Hauntguy

[guy1115]

60 degree angles? The walls sure seemed pretty square and at 90 degree angles the last time I installed them. Huh. Know what you are talking about before you tell things that aren't true.

[JAHill]

Thanks for the help everyone!

[hauntguy]

It's a 60 degree grid pattern, some walls WILL BE 90 degrees! The technical info about the haunt comes straight from Mr. Pickle, although I'm not a fan of the man... he does know his stuff about haunt building! -Hauntguy

PS: I have installed a few 'Pickle' haunts myself... they can be "real" nightmares!

[Leonard Pickel]

"Industry Hack?" What exactly does that mean?

PS: I have installed a few 'Pickle' haunts myself... they can be "real" nightmares!

I am sure that is true, if you don't know what you are doing. Call it job security! (Pickel is spelled E L BYW.)

If said attraction used Pickel's triangular grid then there were NO 90 degree corners. (Now I understand whay you were having problems.)

I have never build/designed a triangular grid haunt for Kings Island, nor one called House of Darkness or one licensed by RL Stine. I guess the Haunt could have been a used Pickel show, but not installed by me.

So you do need to check your facts HauntGuy. (Do you have a real name, I like to know who I am talking to.)

Leonard Pickel

PS. I am not sure what I have done to upset you HauntGuy, but I have the feeling that whatever it was, I didn't do that either!

info@hauntcon.com

972-951-5100

www.hauntedattraction.com

www.hauntcon.com

www.leonardpickel.com

www.hauntrepreneurs.com

[The Interpreter]

(Let this be proof it IS a small world, after all...it's a small, small world...)

[Raptor66]

^So then you are Dick Kinzel?

[The Interpreter]

IF I were Dick Kinzel, would I be obsessed with Great Adventure and Kingda...oh, never mind!

[hauntguy]

Leonard,

First... Welcome to KI Central!

Second... I call them "pickle" haunts because they are just that... a "pickle" to set-up. Although the attractions weren't installed by you in person, they are your haunts. The layout, scares, rooms, ect... SCREAMS Pickel Haunt! I used the term "industry hack" because I do believe your haunt (although I've never seen any of your newer haunts) are over-hyped, over-priced, and outdated. When your attractions sell for PENNIES at some NORTON auctions, actually sold FAR LESS than it cost to build... YIKES..., then that should throw-up a big red flag.

I'm a hardcore believer that a haunt should be detailed to the BONE! (pun intended)... KI has done ALOT of remodeling to your haunts and have made them SO MUCH better. More often than not your haunts have walls that are just painted BLACK with NO detail in them at all! Where's the value in that? You want VALUE... go to Netherworld, Headless Horseman, Dream Reapers, ANY Kevin McCurdy haunt.... and most of all... EVERY Halloween Productions haunt. You know Larry don't you?

If you'd like to discuss this more please contact me off board (pm, email, etc.) and we'll "talk haunt".

I love ya' Leonard, love the magizine, the videos, the website... just.... the haunts? Time to retire! -Hauntguy

[pkiboy]

IF I were Dick Kinzel, would I be obsessed with Great Adventure and Kingda...oh, never mind!

Lets just say Dick Kinzel Takes a Great Adventure a LOT .

[The Interpreter]

Leonard,

First... Welcome to KI Central!

Second... I call them "pickle" haunts because they are just that... a "pickle" to set-up. Although the attractions weren't installed by you in person, they are your haunts. The layout, scares, rooms, ect... SCREAMS Pickel Haunt! I used the term "industry hack" because I do believe your haunt (although I've never seen any of your newer haunts) are over-hyped, over-priced, and outdated. When your attractions sell for PENNIES at some NORTON auctions, actually sold FAR LESS than it cost to build... YIKES..., then that should throw-up a big red flag.

I'm a hardcore believer that a haunt should be detailed to the BONE! (pun intended)... KI has done ALOT of remodeling to your haunts and have made them SO MUCH better. More often than not your haunts have walls that are just painted BLACK with NO detail in them at all! Where's the value in that? You want VALUE... go to Netherworld, Headless Horseman, Dream Reapers, ANY Kevin McCurdy haunt.... and most of all... EVERY Halloween Productions haunt. You know Larry don't you?

If you'd like to discuss this more please contact me off board (pm, email, etc.) and we'll "talk haunt".

I love ya' Leonard, love the magizine, the videos, the website... just.... the haunts? Time to retire! -Hauntguy

And next HauntGuy will write the revised and expanded version of that famous book, How To Win Friends And Influence People.

HauntGuy, how many haunts have YOU designed and sold?

Time to retire? Sheesh....To say that is insulting is to be kind. Oh, I forgot. You are the arbiter of all things haunt...and have previously caustically criticized the haunt people at Kings Island, saying you could do a far better job. Why not go out in the industry and try it? Mr. Pickel is quite successful. His sales speak for themselves. What do your sales tell us?

[hauntguy]

Successful? Maybe as far as haunt magizines, DVD, and TV. But haunts? Well, maybe Mr. Pickel WAS successful in the 90's, but that's the past and it's time to catch up. Here is his client list, http://leonardpickel.com/?page_id=3 ... As far as successful, here are the MOST successful haunts in America: http://americahaunts.com/ ... and to that list I will add USS Nightmare, Knott's Scary Farm, and Halloween Horror Nights.

Why wouldn't I open my own haunt? Because I'm not stupid. It takes THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of dollars to operate/open a haunt and most of the time they fail. Well, I'd rather pay for my college education FIRST than some haunt. But don't worry, I do plan to someday!

I only criticize KI because I love the park, I want FF/HAUNT to be the BEST! I know it can be, just sometimes IDIOTIC decisions are made for NO reason, yes, SMALL decisions. I do think the next two years at KI will bring the BEST halloween event anywhere! I do believe that! -Hauntguy

[Dvo]

60 degree angles? The walls sure seemed pretty square and at 90 degree angles the last time I installed them. Huh. Know what you are talking about before you tell things that aren't true.

I'm gonna have to question the logic there. Seems like you're contradicting yourself? I'm not saying everything Hauntguy said is right, because there were some pretty bad things said. But I will say that I'll trust the knowledge of someone who assembled one of the haunts over someone who walked through one of the one time. Not to mention the horrible lighting in the haunts.

[guy1115]

60 degree angles? The walls sure seemed pretty square and at 90 degree angles the last time I installed them. Huh. Know what you are talking about before you tell things that aren't true.

I'm gonna have to question the logic there. Seems like you're contradicting yourself? I'm not saying everything Hauntguy said is right, because there were some pretty bad things said. But I will say that I'll trust the knowledge of someone who assembled one of the haunts over someone who walked through one of the one time. Not to mention the horrible lighting in the haunts.

Can you clarify this? I am having a hard time telling who you are asking about. I am the one who installed the Haunts at the park.....not Hauntguy.

[Leonard Pickel]

Leonard,

First... Welcome to KI Central!

-Hauntguy

Thanks for warm reception!

A Pickle to set up? Not for me, but then I have done it a few times. The system is the strongest most economical user of space of any wall panel system ever devised. The triangular gird system is the most innovative thing that has happened to haunt layout since the invention of the panel. (BTW, Netherworld uses a triangular grid sytem and has ever since I taught it to Ben at a seminar.)

Over hyped? By who? I do not "hype" my Haunts. I merely sell my services. If you don't like the style of haunt I design, then don't buy one. But why trash my name, when you admit you have not seen one of my recent haunts. The pennies on the dollar haunts you refer to totaled 8,000 sf sold at auction for $20,000 (a great deal.) That Haunt did 20,000 people at $25 a head in October. Not what I would call a looser!

A few years ago I saw three Halloween Productions Haunts, 5,000 square feet each sell for $30,000 each. That what happens at auctions that sell whole haunts rather than piece meal. They go cheap!

Detail is as detail does! I love detailed haunts, but they are expensive, very expensive. Not all clients can afford a fully detailed haunt in year one. Many haunts I sell are starter haunts, that have all the pieces parts for year one. In year two and on, when the client can afford detail, that is when you add it. Otherwise you loss your ass before you can pay for year one.

AmericaHaunts is filled with friends of mine, and each one will tell you that all you had to do to get listed on that site as one of America’s top haunts is... pay $5,000. Not really the criteria I would use to pick to top haunts, and there are a couple of haunts that had NO business being in the top 40, much less top 13. The site is a marketing scheme, not reality.

I see little need to talk to you off board, as you seem to know everything. At your age, I am sure I did too. People can say anything on the internet. Only an idiot would believe everything they read on a web site that slams anyone who does not agree with the board owner.

Besides, I do not talk to people who hide behind a screen name. It makes people much too brave. Tell us what your real name is, and then perhaps we can talk. As you see, I am more than willing to let you know who I am... who are you?

Leonard

[RingMaster]

Just looking at one of the haunted houses on that americahaunt.com called The Darkness makes me wonder....

....Cedar Fair should get Larry Kirchner to redo the interiors of Tomb Raider-er, I mean, the CRYPT. These are just a few shots of part of the haunted house in St. Louis, a cursed jungle/temple/cave of sorts:

*NOTE: All photos are from the Scarefest website at www.scarefest.com.*

[hauntguy]

... To add to the pics, here are some pics of a Pickel-type haunt: http://www.hauntworld.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=71 ... Please note the first few pics, pirate theme, where built in house by the owners. You can actually read some comments about the haunts that my shock you!

Leonard, you know me... I'm Tyler Barnett... was subscribed to Haunted Attraction (have to pay for college now), talked SEVERAL times at Transworld AND HauntCon, etc. Again, I love the mag., love the site, love the videos/books... just the haunts? IDK! If you'd like to talk off board I'm more than happy to send you my cell number.

As for the sale of used haunts... SCREAMWORKS! I believe they hired you for around $40K-$60K, and I believe they had 2-3 (maybe 4) haunts. At the auction, it only brought in roughly $4K per haunt!!! That's what I would call a MAJOR LOSS!

America's Top Haunts a marketing scheme? Well I guess some of those haunts shouldn't have been featured on the Travel or Discovery Channel then? They just don't really know right? -Hauntguy

[RollerNut]

I thought everyone knew that Travel and Discovery's top amusement shows were paid for by the parks. How else could a raggy park like Wet N Wild Greensboro get ranked in the top 10 water parks on Travel Channel. WnW Greensboro's wavepool is in need of repairs so bad that chucks of concrete as long as me(5'8") have been cleaned up by park sweeps.

[King Maple The Tree King]

Leonard,

First... Welcome to KI Central!

Second... I call them "pickle" haunts because they are just that... a "pickle" to set-up. Although the attractions weren't installed by you in person, they are your haunts. The layout, scares, rooms, ect... SCREAMS Pickel Haunt! I used the term "industry hack" because I do believe your haunt (although I've never seen any of your newer haunts) are over-hyped, over-priced, and outdated. When your attractions sell for PENNIES at some NORTON auctions, actually sold FAR LESS than it cost to build... YIKES..., then that should throw-up a big red flag.

I'm a hardcore believer that a haunt should be detailed to the BONE! (pun intended)... KI has done ALOT of remodeling to your haunts and have made them SO MUCH better. More often than not your haunts have walls that are just painted BLACK with NO detail in them at all! Where's the value in that? You want VALUE... go to Netherworld, Headless Horseman, Dream Reapers, ANY Kevin McCurdy haunt.... and most of all... EVERY Halloween Productions haunt. You know Larry don't you?

If you'd like to discuss this more please contact me off board (pm, email, etc.) and we'll "talk haunt".

I love ya' Leonard, love the magizine, the videos, the website... just.... the haunts? Time to retire! -Hauntguy

And next HauntGuy will write the revised and expanded version of that famous book, How To Win Friends And Influence People.

HauntGuy, how many haunts have YOU designed and sold?

Time to retire? Sheesh....To say that is insulting is to be kind. Oh, I forgot. You are the arbiter of all things haunt...and have previously caustically criticized the haunt people at Kings Island, saying you could do a far better job. Why not go out in the industry and try it? Mr. Pickel is quite successful. His sales speak for themselves. What do your sales tell us?

Wow Leonard has made a career out of the haunt industry, hauntguy was a bottom line actor for a few years at Kings Island...

HauntGuy, you need to get a grip on the real world, loss your arrogance, and learn from the others who obviously know what they are doing. Leonard made some excellent points in recent posts and even made a career, a very sucessful one, out of the industry. I think he's the one who knows what he's doing....not you.

[standbyme]

So, we know we can't discuss politics or religion...but judging by this and past threads the moderators might have to add Halloween to the list!

[The Interpreter]

Yeah, it seems every time we discuss Halloween Haunt, someone ends up in a Pickel...

[Leonard Pickel]

Tyler, you do not seem to be listening! I told you not to believe everything you read on the web.

The difference between the Darkness photos and ScreamWorks photos is BUDGET! One of those rooms in the Darkness cost more than the whole set up at ScreamWorks. If I had to wait for those kinds of clients to build a haunt, I would have to find another way to make a living. And who says detail is scary? Many patrons spend the entire experience with their eyes closed or in the back of their boy friends shirt and never see a single detail.

The photo comments you are referring to were made by someone who NEVER saw the haunt in operation and has no idea what he was walking through! Some of the photos, the ones with the black walls were in an attraction style called a Pitch Black. The Haunt is in total darkness with glow paint illusions and ninja like actors used to frighten the patrons. That is why there was no detail, and some of the props were not factory painted... they glowed in the dark. A pitch black is great on the budget because it is cheap to build, but it very effective on the fright level. When Netherworld did a pitch black one year, people liked it better than their full detail haunt, one of the highest detailed in the country. Makes you think, huh!

Secondly, as a consultant, all I can do is reccommend to my client what he should do. I told them not to sell the haunts at auction, because you will not get what they were worth. But the client can do what they want, which unfortunately they did. They had 20,000 people go through the event to rave reviews. Sorry if you do not like the styles of the haunts, but the event was a success. Haunting turned out to be just too much work for the owners, so they just wanted out quickly. Loss or no loss/

You are mistaken about the Pirate haunt, which WAS designed by me. The other haunts were used attractions that I redesigned and updated. It is none of your business what I was paid for my services, but I wonder how you or anyone would have private information like that. The answer being no one!

What would make you think Travel or Discovery Channel knows anything about haunts? I was on the first of these programs last year, and the choose haunts that were in the 3 cities that they had crews going to for other shoots. It had nothing to do with quality of the haunts, it had to do with budget.

Who are you, America’s haunts, me, or anyone to say what the best haunts are? A haunt is like a piece of art. Who is to say and impressionist's work is not as good as a abstract, or a sculpture. I see LOTS of haunts in October, and I have MY personal favorites, but I would never be so pompous as to say this or that haunt is the best in the country. The TV show is hunting for ratings. so to make people watch, they say The Best in the Country! It is called MARKETING! (I hope you are taking some business classes at college.)

Some of those haunts were VERY worthy of being listed in the top 10, but the way you got listed on America haunts, was to pay $5,000. There was no quality criteria.

Sorry to bust your bubble.

I am not sure what you want to discuss of board Tyler. You do not seem to grasp what I am trying to explain to you. I doubt either of us will change the other's mind, but my phone number is all over the net 972-951-5100.

Leonard

PS. I guess I should apologize to the board for stirring up this discussion. What I have tried to do is not only defend myself against empty attacks, but offer some insight into the haunt industry that I hope was interesting reading. Tyler and I will never agree on the items above, but I did my best to keep the discussion civil and professional, and to show Tyler the respect everyone on this board deserves.

[Gordon Bombay]

PS. I guess I should apologize to the board for stirring up this discussion. What I have tried to do is not only defend myself against empty attacks, but offer some insight into the haunt industry that I hope was interesting reading. Tyler and I will never agree on the items above, but I did my best to keep the discussion civil and professional, and to show Tyler the respect everyone on this board deserves.

No apology needed. I personally loved reading your responses, it was nice to get a real, professional view into an industry I knew little and didn't really care to know more about. I appreciate the insight you gave and believe that your last post especially brought up some great points. It's nice to hear from someone who has actual experience in the industry.

Mr. Pickel, if you don't mind me asking, have you ever been to KI's fearfest/Halloween Haunt events in the past or this previous year? If so, do you feel that the more "mature" direction was a step in the right direction? Has this worked elsewhere in the industry?

[AintNutinElse2Do]

While not the scariest haunt I've been to my favorite is http://www.thehauntedcave.net/ It's really neat because it's in a natural cave and they have some pretty cool set-ups. That said I think the detail is nice and pretty but I think they are usually less scary. One of the scariest haunts I went to was one that the local firestation put on and they just had black plastic making the walkways. It wasn't nothing special but it was very scary. That I would have to think was probably the scariest but really close second was when one of Chuck-E-Cheese's (formerly ShowBiz Pizza) closed down and they used that building really neat when walking past the stage area.

Also, around here (east TN) there are several Haunted Corn Maize's while they are cool they've never been scary to me just not enough scare-actors I suppose. Actually last time I went to one I think I probably scared twice as many people as the actors did. Nothing as fun as walking around backwards with a hoody on and jumping out of the corn.

[hauntguy]

Leonard,

Agree to disagree then, It's like two bakers arguing on the best way to bake a cake. HA... -Hauntguy

[King Maple The Tree King]

Leonard,

Agree to disagree then, It's like two bakers arguing on the best way to bake a cake. HA... -Hauntguy

Except one baker actually knows how to bake the cake through experience, while the other just thinks he knows.

[The Interpreter]

Or, one has baked many, many cakes, sold the recipes to master bakers everywhere, developed new cake recipes, developed new kinds of cake and is a noted success throughout the world; while the other is just learning how to make a cake from a mix and knows what they should taste like!