"Don't Bet Against Six Flags"

[The Interpreter]

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2007...-six-flags.aspx

[BoddaH1994]

Just listen to their conference calls and you'll believe it. Shapiro and Co. are really trying to win back guests by making the parks a good value, good experience, and a good way to spend your discretionary dollars.

[cstrwomann]

The parks they have left are the money makers for the company. Six Flags is a good company that has alot of good parks and coasters they just expanded too quickly and added too much new stuff in each park without getting out of debt first. I hope they can improve this year. I visited 3 SF parks last year and they were great. The closest SF park to Ohio now is Kentucky which is a good park but they need a hyper coaster like Superman or Goliath to draw more people to the park.

[BoddaH1994]

The parks they have left are the money makers for the company. Six Flags is a good company that has alot of good parks and coasters they just expanded too quickly and added too much new stuff in each park without getting out of debt first. I hope they can improve this year. I visited 3 SF parks last year and they were great. The closest SF park to Ohio now is Kentucky which is a good park but they need a hyper coaster like Superman or Goliath to draw more people to the park.

SFKK actually can't build that high because of height restrictions due to the airport.

If you like SFKK, you'll be blown away by the rest of the chain. SFKK is the absolute arm pit of the chain.

[Gordon Bombay]

Just listen to their conference calls and you'll believe it. Shapiro and Co. are really trying to win back guests by making the parks a good value, good experience, and a good way to spend your discretionary dollars.

While at Cedar Fair parks the prices go up, the employment benefits drops, and in some cases the rides start to dissapear.

[Delirium_Guy]

The parks they have left are the money makers for the company. Six Flags is a good company that has alot of good parks and coasters they just expanded too quickly and added too much new stuff in each park without getting out of debt first. I hope they can improve this year. I visited 3 SF parks last year and they were great. The closest SF park to Ohio now is Kentucky which is a good park but they need a hyper coaster like Superman or Goliath to draw more people to the park.

SFKK actually can't build that high because of height restrictions due to the airport.

If you like SFKK, you'll be blown away by the rest of the chain. SFKK is the absolute arm pit of the chain.

I would typically agree with you Ryan. SFKK honestly looks TERRIFIC this year. It looks like a brand new spankin park. New paint on almost everything, new signs. I think this is going to be a break out year for the Park. The new GM is VERY passionate about the Park and truly believes in it. Both my visits have seen employees a lot friendlier than in the past. Chang and T2 have both been running TWO trains everytime I go also....certainly a big change. I haven't thrown in towel on SFKK, its a Park that had and still has a lot of potential. They, like a lot of other SF parks now face, just have to win back their market that has been lost.....a lot of which went to Holiday World.

My Six Flags experiences this year have all been great. Once again, SFoG stands out as the jewel for me again!

- Todd

[mudvayneimn]

I haven't been to SFKK since summer of last year (i worked there) but from what I've heard, the park really looks good and is becoming very respectable. I love the enthusiasm of the new GM, he will go so far as to give helpful tips and information on coaster forums. I really like the direction the park is taking.

In terms of ride heights, SFKK can build up to around 200 ft in some parts of the park. They used to have a Sling Shot ride a couple of years back, and the ball would reach somewhere around 240-60 ft. Everytime it launched past 200ft high a blip on the airports radar would appear so they ended up removing it and it was supposed to go to SFNE, but they didn't get approval. If SFKK wanted a coaster with a drop of 180+ ft, they could do it. Never forget about trenches/tunnels.

[The Interpreter]

Not to mention that in many, many ways Six Flags Kentucky Kingdom is to Six Flags what Geauga Lake is to Cedar Fair...a very popular waterpark with a dry park to boot. The difference is that Kentucky Kingdom is very, very profitable, and, in my opinion, now has more to do in its dry park than Geauga does.

And, as I posted elsewhere just now, there is a HUGE difference in the friendliness of those particular Six Flags employees versus those at the next nearest park. Funny thing is this, as little as two years ago, the difference was the other way around.

[FOFirehawkFAN]

Just listen to their conference calls and you'll believe it. Shapiro and Co. are really trying to win back guests by making the parks a good value, good experience, and a good way to spend your discretionary dollars.

While at Cedar Fair parks the prices go up, the employment benefits drops, and in some cases the rides start to dissapear.

What parks or Park are you refering to when you say rides dissapear? Im gonna bet it's Geauga Lake or should I say "Six Flags Worlds Of Adventure" Once again an example of over development and now Cedar Fair is trying to fix this problem, but honestly I think Six Flags ruined this park and Sea World Ohio and withen a few years we may be left with a for sale sign and a new condo development.

[Gordon Bombay]

I'm referring to Cedar Fair's removal of two major rollercoasters from Geauga Lake. Six Flags stock is actually performing better than CF's right now and SF is getting a lot more praise nationwide than CF is.

[cstrwomann]

Six Flags was wrong to sell GL in my opinion. They had a great park which offered alot of variety for their guests. The animals were great for the park and you could see alot of things in a day. It was alot more fun when SF owned it. GL now just has rides and water slides and a few shows without animals. Face it when CF got rid of the animals they lost alot of people's interest and now the people won't come back because they are angry over it.

[cstrwomann]

How can you say that about SFKK? They have some good coasters at this park. The parks they sold are the armpits of the chain IMO. I've been to most of the SF parks except Calif., Texas, and Mass. And I tell people to visit them and positive things about the park not negative things.

[RailRider]

Funny how some folks on this site and other boards can praise the likes of a CF when they acquire Paramount Parks, but are negative as soon as the seasson begins. CF has put forth a plan for improvement at their newly acquired Paramount parks, yet people are already to jump off ship. Then again you will always find negative parties when change is involved. People hated Paramount from day one, so people will hate CF from day one. If anything the park experience has improved this year, but that is my humble opinion. Also how has CedarFair been criticized lately in the Media, Dick Kinzel has actually been receiving great praise for his work. Dont say Maverick either, have you ridden it yet? Its an amazing ride if you havent.

Anyways back to GL. Anyone that thinks GL should have kept all of their dry rides has not spent enough time in that park to see that it would function better as a major water park with a few nice dry rides and attractions, as in Holiday World. SF killed almost killed that park as SFWoA, so CF has a lot of work to right that sinking ship and to also make a viable park. The parks that SF have kept have always been revenue generators. Great idea for a company that has a serious debt load, also the same reasson they wanted to unload Magic Mountain, talk about a nightmare. Anyways SixFlags is under what seems to be a passionate leadership team, they have eliminated a lot of their parks that didnt generate a lot of revenue, and they have cut back on major ride instals. Only time will tell how they do, just like only time will tell how CF will do with GL and PP. Dont praise SF as the next best thing and dont declare the CF ship as going down. Then again thats what happen with fans and enthusiasts, we always jump the gun, bail out, and jump on board before anyone else.

[WooferBearATL]

Not necessarily true.

There are those of us that thought so little of Paramount that Satan himself could have come down to manage the parks and we'd give them a chance.

I know that I'm willing to give CF some leway and time to put things in order before I bash any decisions.

As far as SF goes, I know I've been saying since last year not to count SF out of the hunt. To do so would be very unwise.

[Browntggrr]

Six Flags stock is actually performing better than CF's right now and SF is getting a lot more praise nationwide than CF is.

That is really not surprising.

SF could only improve. CF has had SF's number for so long that any type of SF turn around will get people excited.

Where CF could be shooting themselves in the foot is if they feel complacent. And by how much they are charging for food, that could be true.

It is also very early in the year. Many things could change by August.

[WooferBearATL]

It actually is not early in the year.

For any Seasonal Operation, they best have their ducks in a row.

Being that it's June and most daily operations cease in August, it's very hard to devise and implement any major plans at this point.

[Browntggrr]

^What I meant by that is, the initial excitement for SF is early in the year. We will have to wait until August to see if the excitment continues, or if SF will go back to their old ways.

The same thing with CF. Right now, most are rather upset about the current food prices. But CF could change that, just like they did a few years ago with soda pricing at CP. Guests stopped buying drinks and CP dropped the price back to (I believe $2.50) mid-year.

[Mikewhy]

Just want to comment on SFKK. I agree with the other comments that the park is better than ever, has an awesome GM, and that 2007 has been the best year this park has had for nearly 10 years. They do desperately need new rides in the ride park, but otherwise the park is more promising now than ever. It is in no way the arm pit of the Six Flags any more...

[Dalefan]

If Six Flags needs to make changes then they need to get the workers to stop being rude and nasty towards its people who enter the park. And change its policys about the shirts and stuff. I know they are trying but i have seen this stuff and it has closed parks. The ceo also needs to quit taking raises.

[Browntggrr]

And change its policys about the shirts and stuff.

What policy is that?

[jzarley]

I'm referring to Cedar Fair's removal of two major rollercoasters from Geauga Lake. Six Flags stock is actually performing better than CF's right now and SF is getting a lot more praise nationwide than CF is.

Out of curiousity, how are you measuring that SF's (SIX) stock is performing better than CF's (FUN)?

As of this morning, FUN is trading at $29.32/share, with a total market cap of $1.59B. The 52-week range has been between $24.12-$30.65, so FUN is currently trading near the top of that range.

SIX is trading at $6.32/share, with a market cap of $598M. SIX's 52-week range is from a low of $4.53 to a high of $9.12, so they're currently trading at right about the middle of that range...

I think that the new management at SF is definitely on the right track, and if their shareholders (and Dan Synder) are patient enough, they'll eventually turn things around. (And, personally, if I had to choose a CEO of a park chain, Shapiro would be my choice over Kinzel...)

BUT, I don't understand what metric would indicate that SF's stock is currently (or even within the last few years) performing better than CF's...

[Dalefan]

And change its policys about the shirts and stuff.

What policy is that?

Wearing a shirt with offending stuff on it. Instead of putting it inside out they wont let you in the park at all. They also had one that said you wasnt able to go back in the park unless you paid again. No hand stamps. That got pulled 1st week it was put out. Lost season pass holders and 50% of bussiness.

[FOFirehawkFAN]

And change its policys about the shirts and stuff.

What policy is that?

Wearing a shirt with offending stuff on it. Instead of putting it inside out they wont let you in the park at all. They also had one that said you wasnt able to go back in the park unless you paid again. No hand stamps. That got pulled 1st week it was put out. Lost season pass holders and 50% of bussiness.

Oh god I remember the no stamp rule, also did anyone else hear about the radio promotion where the first so many people got in six flags free (i think it was Atlana) and it backed up the interstate for hours on top of morning rush hour.

[FOFirehawkFAN]

And then they turned people away and didnt even let them in for free.

[Dalefan]

Yeah that also caused fights among adults who act like kids. Its a shame that the kids act like adults more then most adults do. And i have seen this 1st hand too.

[BoddaH1994]

SIX is closed up around 5% today. Believe it or not, I have faith that the company won't go bankrupt. Of course that means I'm optimistic about its growth.

Of course, if it does go bankrupt, the creditors TAKE your stock and you are entitled to NOTHING, so have faith (and do homework) before investing.

[FOFirehawkFAN]

SIX is closed up around 5% today. Believe it or not, I have faith that the company won't go bankrupt. Of course that means I'm optimistic about its growth.

Of course, if it does go bankrupt, the creditors TAKE your stock and you are entitled to NOTHING, so have faith (and do homework) before investing.

What would happen if they did go Bankrupt though? I still don't really understand what they did with those 5 or 6 parks they sold? They sold them a random company thats keeping them exactly the same they just arent called Six Flags anymore?

[BoddaH1994]

SIX is closed up around 5% today. Believe it or not, I have faith that the company won't go bankrupt. Of course that means I'm optimistic about its growth.

Of course, if it does go bankrupt, the creditors TAKE your stock and you are entitled to NOTHING, so have faith (and do homework) before investing.

What would happen if they did go Bankrupt though? I still don't really understand what they did with those 5 or 6 parks they sold? They sold them a random company thats keeping them exactly the same they just arent called Six Flags anymore?

Simple -

Six Flags is in a lot of debt... a LOT of debt. They needed money to show on the balance sheet and they need it immediately. If you do your homework with stocks, that's one of the first things you look at. A company in a lot of debt isn't nearly as desirable as a company with little debt, no debt, or Heaven forbid, showing a gain. They need their stocks to go up. They need to grow. Sometimes you have to make decisions which aren't typical to do such a thing.

Want an example?

There's a company that did something kind of irrational about a year ago. They took on a LOT of debt to acquire a handful of parks. Why do that? They needed to diversify their business so if the markets of Detroit and Sandusky go sour, they still have marginal incomes.

[The Interpreter]

a. The no-rentry rule was NEVER implemented. It was discussed, but NOT implemented.

b. I am sure PARC would be shocked to know it is a random company. You'd be surprised what else they manage. And they are NOT keeping the parks the same. If you want to see a park that at first had little change on takeover, see Geauga Lake. Like Geauga, this sale occurred right before the new season started. Unlike Geauga, passes sold are being honored, and there is no need to exchange them for passes good only at the park where sold.

c. The Atlanta thing is very true and just happened this year. Although many defend Six Flags and blame the radio station involved, it was a fiasco which was easily foreseeable and should NOT have happened.

I will add two of my own--for a company that is supposedly so family friendly, the "eat a roach and get in free" promotion seemed remarkably out of kilter. And $15 parking is a great thing to meet honored guests with...NOT.

[WooferBearATL]

a. The no-rentry rule was NEVER implemented. It was discussed, but NOT implemented.

b. I am sure PARC would be shocked to know it is a random company. You'd be surprised what else they manage. And they are NOT keeping the parks the same. If you want to see a park that at first had little change on takeover, see Geauga Lake. Like Geauga, this sale occurred right before the new season started. Unlike Geauga, passes sold are being honored, and there is no need to exchange them for passes good only at the park where sold.

c. The Atlanta thing is very true and just happened this year. Although many defend Six Flags and blame the radio station involved, it was a fiasco which was easily foreseeable and should NOT have happened.

I will add two of my own--for a company that is supposedly so family friendly, the "eat a roach and get in free" promotion seemed remarkably out of kilter. And $15 parking is a great thing to meet honored guests with...NOT.

The roach thing was a one night thing Interp, you know that. And it was a promotion for the Halloween event. Not really a big deal. As far as the parking situation, it always surprises me about eh parking but no one at all complains about it.