Shaggy

Maybe I missed it, but I fail to see where Mr Arnold was so "terrible" with what he said about HW or other parks. Actually he's right about Beech Bend marketing hitting the Louisville market hard this year. Holiday World has always been aggressive in their competing campaign opposing SFKK... they annually placed billboard ads visible from within KK. However, It does strike me as odd that this all comes on the heels of a devistatingly bad weekend at the fairgrounds. They had one of their big flea market extravaganzas... something that in the past has brought in humongous crowds. Apparently vendors at the flea market are up in arms because there was no money to be made and it ended up being a flop. The fairgrounds increased the parking price to an exhorbitant $8. (That's up $2 since the spring and up $5 from 5 years ago!) which drove away attendees. In addition, Stewart Promotions had to increase costs of space rental due to higher rent being charged by the Fair Board for hall space. I have said it before, I'll say it again... Workman and the Fair Board are good-ol-boys that are to blame for this whole mess. But, according to what I have read here, KI was definitely not a benefactor of the demise of SFKK... at least not this past weekend. I guarantee you that if KK were to have been open this year, it would have been a very slow weekend for them as well.

Go easy on touchdown62... However, the point stands... If you actually take a look at the overall "details," it seems Paramount may have actually paid more attention to them than CF has so far. Paramount not only re-furbed the Fountains, but they also spent a huge chunk of change having all the old lights on the tops of the International Street buildings replaced. When I was there last year, there were many, many bulbs out. Paramount was also responsible for the re-lighting of the Eiffel Tower with the rotational colors. They also kept the band organ functional on the carousel. CF, to my knowledge, does not have any working band organs on ANY of their carousels. Seems fishy to me. Paramount uncovered and restored the amazing stained glass window located in the Festhaus. It was hidden for years and years. They also maintained the Bavarian clock. CF has now discontinued it's use, and from what I have read on here, stripped it of it's mechanics. Now, I am not saying CF is doing a bad job. I am just saying that their attention is obviously not focused on some of the "little things" that always made KI so charming. Shaggy

Huh? Paramount actually spent $1M restoring the fountains. They were completely gutted and re-done with the pool being re-sealed, the plumbing re-done and the lighting updated. Paramount hasn't owned the park in nearly 5 years... reading this thread indicates there are fountain effects not working this season. How is that' the previous owner's fault?

I used a tanning bed off and on for nearly 15 years. I have very, very fair skin and red hair. I did it just to keep some sort of pigment to my skin. In addition, I suffer from winter depression and my Doctor actually told me to go to a tanning bed once a week. It definitely helped with the "blahs" and enabled me to avoid getting burned in the summertime (not to mention not being embarassed to go shirtless etc.) However... This past spring I saw a dermatologist for some spots that began appearing and giving me concern. (I am quickly approaching 40) I came out unscathed, but was made aware that I will likely battle skin cancer as I age due to my skin tone and years of indoor tanning. (I never over-tanned or got really brown, but it doesn't matter.) It scares me to death of what I *may* face. I stopped tanning 2 years ago, and although all is good so far, I'd deter anyone from going for the simple fact of what it may bring. Quite frankly, I see the tax an attempt to deter folks. But I'll be surprised if it makes a difference. There is still too much vanity placed on having a tan, and those with pale skin still feel singled out. Until attitudes toward looks change, people will pay the price. Shaggy

Bingo! That's the term!

LOL, what I know isn't really inside information... just general knowledge I picked up. Many of the older, more established wooden coaster maintenance folks at KI at the time SOB was built were the ones that had to jump on board and "fix" the coaster. It was literally all hands on deck. However, don't fault them, applaud them. Remember, they were maintenance technicians, not designers or engineers. They had to encorporate the knowledge they had from years of maintaining The Beast (and Racer) into making SOB work. If you will recall, Beast and Racer were 20 and (nearly) 30 years old by the time SOB came around. In the earliest years of SOB, the wood coaster maintenance team would start walking track on SOB at something insane like 3:30 am. Everyday it took them hours and hours to walk that ride and have it ready for the public at 10am. They'd rip out entire sections in the dark and replace them literally overnight. It took a terrible toll on those guys. Several of those fellas retired shortly therafter, from what I heard. Shaggy

A great example of a steel structure comperable to Voyage was Villain. Villain was installed as part of a giant rides package when Six Flags branded Geauga Lake as Six Flags Ohio. It was built with a steel structure in order to allow the park to install a very large wooden coaster while keeping cost lower (to spend on other upgrades to the park.) The first year, Villian was an incredible ride. By year two, not so good. After that, it became virtually painful to ride. Obviously this was partly due to the horrid Gerstlaur trains. But even so, the coaster became terribly jarring and unenjoyable very, very quickly. Most significantly, the "flying carpet" trick track section during the 1st half of the ride was literally like riding over gravel. That's because it was on a steel structure very close to the ground/footings. The steel didn't flex, the track had no where to go... so that inertia had to be absorbed elsewhere... thus the train shuddered riders throughout the whole section. It was like going over those warning divots on the side of the interstate.... you know the ones that vibrate your car when you drift too far to the shoulder? But worse... To see for yourself... watch this video. Pay attention at the :18 to :23 portion. Shaggy

I have to disagree. Although things like maintenance and enviroment may play a part, ultimately a steel structure coaster is much more budget concious. I guarantee that the lowered cost of installing a steel structure was why Will chose it for Voyage. He wanted more bang for his buck. Overall, from what I have witnessed, steel structures become much rougher much sooner. Because the steel structure has much less give, then the track must take on more of the flexibility. That causes more wear and tear on the coaster running boards, and causes roughness. I have ridden many, many steel-structured woodies that suffer from this same roughness. Voyage, IMO, is a wild and very intense coaster. It's not re-rider friendly (again my opinion) due to the intensity of the design, and inflexibility of the structure. Shaggy

You don't think the tracking SoB has received was due to the roughness, but the usual wear-and-tear? I think Sob would have required more-than-average (whatever that may be) retracking than other wooden coasters in general BECAUSE of the over the top wear and tear. But the additional design flaws, roughness and lack-of-enjoyment (and safety) factor blew maintenance needs through the roof. Does that make sense? I guess I am saying SOB would have required extra track attention no matter... however the flaws exaggerated that need far beyond what was expected.

I'm not sure if you've ridden Prowler yet, but the ride is excellent IMO. Prowler filled a huge hole in their coaster lineup and is an absolute joy to ride to boot. It's also much more tolerable for the GP than Voyage and is thus much more re-rideable. Worlds of Fun hit a home run with that coaster and I'd say they got their money's worth. On a quick tangent, I'm hoping that the success that Renegade and Prowler have enjoyed leads Cedar Fair to really take a hard look at adding GCIs through more of their parks. I realize that Valleyfair and Worlds of Fun don't get the traffic that bigger parks in the chain like Cedar Point or KI get, but the GP would eat up a good GCI coaster. There's also the obvious difference between GCI's Prowler and HW's Voyage... Prowler is a true, 100% wooden coaster. Voyage is not... it's a steel structure... and that allowed them to go higher and farther... physically and monetarily. Shaggy

Sure they do, in certain areas and increase with age. SoB has been re-tracked in it's brief 10 year history much more than the average wooden coaster. I do believe, however, that the constant re-tracking of SOB would have been a necessity even if the coaster were a roaring success. Overall, even if it had no design flaws, SOB was an immense wooden coster that went really, really high and really, really fast. I am 110% sure the park knew that maintenance would be at a much higher level than even The Beast. However, KI at the time was operating with the best wooden coaster maintenance team in the business. Many who began at the park under Charlie Dinn when then Beast was built. Without them, I don't think SOB would have even lasted 2 seasons. Really and truly, no other park could have made SOB operate to the extent that it did.

My pleasure. SOB has had TONS of little changes over time, some bigger, some smaller. It's hardly the ride it was designed to be. But then, the original designer has never ridden it... or been to KI since it was built... IMO, it's the greatest failure of Werner Stengel's career. Also IMO, KI (both Paramount and CF) should be commended on always stepping up to the plate to try and right a ton of wrongs that were design/construction flaws. Their intentions for the ride have always been good, but ultimately they were promised a gem... only to recieve a lemon. Shaggy

Remember that Flight Deck (As Top Gun) originally had RED track paint. When repainted silver (Ugh, thank you Tim Fisher) the red was not removed, rather simply painted over. That underying corrosion or rust... is likely less rust and more old red paint. Shaggy

Perhaps "Oops this was a bad idea" needs to be realized. SoB has been modified numerous times with the hope that it could become the coaster it was supposed to be. To this date, none have worked. Never knew 1 modification, could become numerous modifications. Son of Beast has had 1 major modification since opening. That was the retracking, removal of loop, and new trains. What other modifications am I missing other than that one modification in 2006-2007 SOB was modified prior to it even opening. Originally, it had 3 trains. However when the coaster was built and began technical testing, the coaster's blocking system could not handle 3 trains without stacking mid-course. So it was modified to only run with two. SOB was closed abruptly and received a modification following the media event and then again following the first day it was opened to the general public. After the media event, the coaster was closed and the incline following the large drop had it's ledgers re-inforced and replaced. This delayed it's opening that night to season pass holders. Following the first day it was open to the public, the coaster was closed abruptly and remained closed until the incline was banked, decreasing the severity of the turn at the top. This was the site of the infamous "jolt" that only the earliest SOB riders felt. Originally, the incline went straight up evenly and there was a severe turn at the top. Because of the sharp turn, trains would fall to the right once gravity took over. That caused riders to be "jolted" to the right side of the train. When SOB first opened, it was not trimmed or braked at all. The fall from the (then) unused mid-course block break into the loop was the highlight of the ride. After the ride had been open for a week or so, rider's complaints prompted the use of the mid-course to slow the train. However, this served no purpose other than to slow the 2nd half of the ride... the tame part... the complaints were based on the roughness of the rosebowl PRIOR to the mid-course. About a month after opening, SOB was again modified. It had it's lift slowed, received a kicker tire at the top of the large drop, and trim brakes at the top of the 3rd hill. SOB's rosebowl was also completely re-tracked after season 1, and the banking at the bottom of the rosebowl was made more severe to aid in the shuffling and eliminate the horrid vibrations riders felt at the base of the helix.

It's a curious comment. He may be a placeholder for a few years, but that's dependant upon whether the children will have an interest in the business. Will's daughter is the oldest. I haven't seen her in years, but I'd guess her age somewhere around the late high school/early college. His son's are probably middle school/early high school age. So there's AT LEAST a number of years before any of them would be able to steer the ship. And that's only if they have the proper business sense. Shaggy

Below are some links to various news clips/stories/videos from today's funeral for Will Koch, former President and Owner of Holiday World. In the first clip, some of you Paramount Park fans may recognize one of the interviewees. David Mandt, former head of Marketing for Paramount Parks, and now head of Marketing for IAAPA, was in attendance. It's still so horrifically sad to know of his loss, but so greatly heartwarming to see that the services were uplifting and joyful. After all, creating joy was what Will was all about. http://tristatehomepage.com/fulltext?nxd_id=168425 http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=12667852 http://tristatehomepage.com/fulltext?nxd_id=168015 Rest in peace Will... but make sure to build the ultimate coaster for me to ride when I get there. John

The "pre-show" mentioned above was actually simply a 25th anniversary video the park made for the ride. It played on the Q-tvs that were in the line at the time for a few years. The coaster never had a "pre-show" persay. In reference to the claw marks... yes, the trains were given "claw" marks for the 1999 20th Anniversary. I was on The Beast crew that season, and am the owner of one of the claw decals. Finally, the paw prints were painted on the existing pavers before. They wear off, typically, halfway through the season due to foot traffic and general weather wear. Shaggy

I've posted this before... but here it goes again... The Beast paw prints have come and gone throughout it's history. I expect they'll be back at sometime. However the "prints" are not unique to Beast. Adventure Express, Vortex, Flight Commander, Flight of Fear, Beastie and others have all had "prints" leading to their entrance at some point. Shaggy

LOL! I thought I was the only one that noticed his ability to correct the past! It seems as though the (former) Paramount Parks eventually purchased their Skycoasters as well. If memory serves me, the one at Ki was leased for sometime. However I seem to recall being told the park eventually bought it. Not positive. Shaggy

Interesting. Thanks! I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me as I drove by. LOL

I was driving by SFKK and it seems that the skycoaster has now been removed from (closed) SFKK. I am not sure if the park owned the attraction. It's quite possible an outside vendor owned it and leased the land for a cut of the profits (upcharge.) However from what I could tell passing by on the interstate, it looks to be gone. Shaggy

You would think this would be true. But it's actually not. The movies were a thriving business during the Great Depression. And while this summer has been a down one for the movies, they have done very well during the recession. No doubt travel budgets have been slashed though. I would imagine theme parks are less elastic than movies. Movies are, IMO, percieved as a much more "economical" form of entertainment. They also are heavily patronized by teens. Trust me when I say that most forms of entertainment are suffering from huge drops in attendance. Shaggy

While I understand attendance has continued to decline at KI since the mid-to-late 90's, maybe somebody should take a look and figure out why that's happening... For the entertainment industry, it's been a long economic downturn, not simply a result of the recession the US has felt in the last 4 years. Theatre, tourist destinations etc have all been hit hard and have seen a long, drawn out dip in attendance beginning around 7-8 years ago. When finances become tight, the first expenditure people slash is entertainment budget. So the ones that feel it first, hardest and longest are entertainment venues. However, many parks are sucessfully instituting marketing initiatives based on "staycations." They are concentrating on drawing from locals, rather than out-of-state travelers. That's the current hot draw. I'm not sure how KI is marketing to Cincy locals. Shaggy

Who the heck are you thanking? If you meant me, I was DISAGREEING with you.

I could not disagree with you more. Other than a brief time period of ownership in the late 1980's, Kings Island has always been a great park. Quite frankly, I've seen first person the hard work and dedication it takes to operate KI. There's an immense amount of work required to keep KI functional, let alone a place that many first time visitors still become enchanted with. To say it's being destroyed, IMO, is a narrow minded slap to those that are currently working hard to keep it one of the best regional theme parks in the world. My hat is off to them, and I thank all the folks that have dedicated their time to KI to making my visits memorable and enjoyable. Shaggy