Shaggy

It's based on attendance growth. Wonderland continues to see attendance growth, while KI and CP have seen drops in attendance. Wonderland is the gem out of the bunch, at this point. Kinzel has even said so on the quarterly calls. Another park sneaking up in the ranks is Carowinds. I wouldn't turn my nose up at KD either. Nothing special? I bet those that have grown up with it, as you have KI, would disagree. For all intents and purposes, KD's overall ride selection is better than KI's at this point. (My opinion, of course.) But as far as KD's history, well it's only 2 years younger than KI (or 3... depending upon whether you count the "soft" opening in 1974.) Shaggy

FYI, for those contemplating the "30 second ride" on Top Thrill Dragster... It actually takes 17 seconds from launch until you cross the "finish line" marker. So that's roughly a cost of $1.47 million per second. Shaggy

Here's a link to a previous discussion about the Beetle. In it, I detailed the history as I know it. I am too lazy to re-itterate it, so I'll just post the link ;-) http://www.KICentral.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1785#entry20526

It was moved when the park added Lion Country Safari/Wild Animal Habitat in 1974. It was relocated so that an entrance path to the new area could be built. Also, the Bavarian Beetle's "theming" didn't appear until after a few seasons after the park opened. It eventually recived the "snow covered mountains" and "snow climbers." Shaggy

Myrtle Beach Pavilion - not exactly sure how long it lasted there. Here's a pic: BTW... it's not documented very well, however a person was decapitated on KD's back in the early 1980s. They stood up on the ride and whamo! The irony is, it was removed a few years later for Shockwave... which has a tragedy in it's history as well. Back to KI's Galaxi (The Bavarian Beetle)... Here's a few pics that *sorta* show the coaster when it was at KI... and demonstrate it's location:

The main picture used in that link (see below) is actually not the Bavarian Beetle at KI. It's the former "Galaxie" coaster that was at KD until Shockwave was built. Both parks had a Galaxy style coaster. KI's was scrapped... while KD's was sold to A Myrtle Beach park and operated there until around 5 years ago.

This is so terribly heartbreaking to hear. Will always impressed me as a very gifted man with a sense of faith, family, and fun. I greatly admire him for that. My prayers are with his mother, as the loss of a child is devistating. My prayers are with his wife, who no doubt has lost a soulmate. My prayers are with his children, for the loss of their father. My prayers are with the Holiday World Family, as they struggle through this time. God bless them all, and God bless Will.

FYI... The link to the aerial view posted above is actually post removal of the 1st corkscrew. Here's a great pov. It's Drachen Fire testing in 1992, in it's original form: http://www.themeparkreview.com/coastertube/play.php?vid=DrachenFirePOV Here's also a great piece that once aired on PBS. It actually shows the construction of Drachen Fire: BTW, Drachen Fire was indeed a very, very beautiful coaster. But virtually every Busch Park coaster is beautifully placed/themed/landscaped. One piece of trvia many don't realize is that prior to DF being built, the village that Big Bad Wolf travelled through was just a series of "fronts." Meaning only facades of buildings were built since only those guests riding BBW saw them. However in typical Busch fashion, they went the extra mile when building Drachen Fire and actually re-built/completed the rear of the building facades on BBW so guests riding DF would not see incomplete theming. Shaggy

Interpreter is correct... Steel Phantom was FAR worse that DF.... FAR worse. The coaster was located way off the Octoberfest Midway. It sat in a plot of land located behind BBW, and to the far left of the Festhaus. Actually, until they attempted to make it more accessible, you initially had to head towards the Black Forest Catering/Picnic Pavillion to get to it. That utterly confused guests who could see it in the distance, but couldn't understand how to get to it. The station's still there, I believe, and the land sits vacant. http://www.themeparkbrochures.net/maps/1997/bgw1997.html I expect that to change fairly soon, however... Shaggy

I rode Drachen Fire many, many times. The first half of the ride was actually enjoyable IMO. Once you got into the 2nd leg of the ride is when it became rough. It was indeed a headbanger. Was it the worst? Not in my opinion. The removal of the inversion in the latter years was a joke, as that was not the cause of the roughness. The quick, unnatural transitions from element to element surprised riders and thus they got beat around. Overall, it was a very intense looper with more headbanging than typical Arrows. But it wasn't nearly as violent as some claim. You have to recall that at the time BGW only had 3 large coasters. And the two that preceeded it were very, very re-ridable. BGW had to have a coaster that folks wanted to ride over, and over.... Drachen Fire didn't turn out that way. I was around 19 when it opened and had a hard time riding it numerous times in a row. If it were still around today, I doubt I'd be able to ride it enjoyably. That's very telling as the success of rides and attractions at BGW rely heavily on their mass appeal to older adults. Basically, it's demise was a combination of things: - The patrons of BGW were not enchanted with the attraction and never found a fan base - It quickly became unmarketable - The placement of the coaster was awful - It was rough, and non re-ridable - The numerous inversions immediately limited it's guest appeal It was nearly always a walk-on ride. The last time I was at BGW when DF was still operating, Big Bad Wolf had an hour wait, and DF was running 3/4 empty trains.

Thank you for this. I was going to head in this direction in my last post, but couldn't come up with a way to word it without sounding negative, so I deleted it. Traditional flats installed in a park like KI would be a capacity nightmare, but if there were several (or just a couple) put in at the same time, that would help alleviate that problem. Much like what they did in 1986 by installing Zephyr and Skylab at the same time. Ummm.... Zephyr's still there... I always get my "Z" rides mixed up... forgive me, typo it was... Zodiac was meant :-)

There was a trend a number of years ago where various parks begin to re-install some of the long-lost flat ride favorites. Several of the Six Flags parks installed flat ride packages, and most notably Hersheypark installed Midway USA which brought back many, MANY of the old favs. I had hoped, no, prayed, KI would do so too. But then... there is always the future... ;-) The argument with flat rides in a high volume park is always capacity. KI could never get away with installing, say, only a ferris wheel. However a package of rides is quite suitable. Just two or three years ago, I had my fingers crossed that KI would get the flats from Geauga Lake. Instead, KD got a few of them, while others bit the dust. I was bummed over that one. In the meantime, KD is far superior to KI in the flat ride dept. Wonderland, though, is chock full of them... and they keep them in amazing operating condition. Shaggy

Apparently, no one really knows. Back in those days, tracking rides wasn't done to the extent it is now. It was probably sold to a carnival or another park, but that question has been posed here before, without a satisfactory answer. That's one of the few I haven't been able to track either. I suspect it was scrapped (as were others around that time...Tumble Bug, Cuddle Up.) It was actually called Halley's Comet, and was relocated from Coney Island to KI and then moved within KI at least once. It bit the dust sometime around the time they began construction on The Bat. Shaggy

... you're forgetting those that care the most... the parks. They are huge ego boosts for them. Quite honestly, Holiday World practically exists for them. But then they love bragging rights in general. I have to say that I was pretty amused when they re-built the fountain to house... an Applause Award. Where else do you see giant Golden Ticket Awards nailed to the sides of coasters? LOL ... not to say they didn't earn them. Shaggy

Let's see, according to Shaggy the good old days ended in 1988. I started working at the park in 1989 and every year until 2004... OMG! It was ME that ruined the park! I sincerely apologize, and will now go into hiding... -Gator, who misses that first year of selling doughnuts, brownies, elephant ears and cookies at Bakery on International Street... LOL, that's it! We've found the source of the problem! Kidding My actual point is, the better days of the park existed when there was a core group of owners that's full attention was devoted to KI year after year and still had the original concept in mind. In the late 1980's the park began to change hands, have new owners, have the owners bought out, become a part of a conglomorate, have the conglomorate bought out, divded, sold etc etc etc. Thus all those changes led to an overall inconsitancy and changing directives for the park(s.) There was no focus, so the park sort of lost it's footing, and it's innocence.

I've said for years that Coney Mall needs a flat ride overhaul. I'd love for them to bring back the Midway flair by adding in some classics now absent from the park... modern versions of the Tilt-O Whirl, Flying Bobs, Teacups, Flying Carpet, Trabant, etc. For a cool million they could put in at least 3 or 4 of those, and obviously there's plenty of room. Shaggy

I'm curious... Did you visit KI prior to, say, 1988? No, by "good ol' days at KI," I actually meant "PKI." My mistake. Trust me, the good 'ol days were from 1972 - 1988 or so. That's not meant to negate the good strides Paramount and CF made. However the earliest decades of KI are the ones most look upon with sincere fondness - mostly due to the awe factor the park held. KI was THE park duing that timeframe... it was hands down the best regional theme park in the nation. The late 1980s- 1990's saw the park's determination to be the best fade IMo, and it's been playing catch up since. However, I have faith and believe the park may have more glory days ahead.

Um..Paramount didn't choose to "disown" it...they were purchased by Cedar Fair. OK then let me rephrase that. It just seems stupid to purchase Paramount, then let Paramount purchase back? To add to your point, I have read by many on here (not to say that it is the gospel) that Paramount was ready to get out of the Amusement Park business and was looking for a buyer for the parks. I don't think CF just came up to them one day and made them an offer they could not refuse. Correct me if I am wrong here Terpy! If that is truly the case, then why would they want it back? CBS/Viacom became the owners of Paramount... which included the parks division. They became disinterested in retaining ownership of the park division, so they sold them to Cedar Fair which was an interested party.

I'm curious... Did you visit KI prior to, say, 1988?

Diamondback was brought up when Paramount was in charge but would we of got it? I Don't know. I've heard that it was offered when Paramount was in charge but didn't want it, but when Cedar Fair took over the park they welcomed a star attraction with open arms. That's just what I've heard, so don't take that as fact unless someone can confirm it. I'll also add that the park is a lot cleaner with Cedar Fair. I remember the path being covered with Coke cups and paper towels, but I haven't seen a single piece of trash on the path since Cedar Fair took over. Diamondback is entirely a Cedar Fair install... from start to finish. In the Paramount days, B&M proposed a coaster for the same plot of land that Diamondback is on... by the railroad trestle. However so did Intamin. Nothing ever came of it. I agree with the Interpreter that the worst days of the park were the Linder days (specifically around 1989- 1992). Same is true of Kings Dominion. The main argument is that the parks were horribly dirty, and in KD's case, unsafe. Trash was always overflowing out of garbage cans, it smelled, rides were dirty, gum trees all over, and graffiti on the rides. KI was kept far better shape than KD, but overall the parks had a gritty feel to them. In addition, this is when it seemed ride after ride after ride began dissapearing from the parks. You'll have to realize that in those days, there was no internet. Fans literally waited until the parks opened to see how they had changed or what was new. Actually, back in the day the best way to get a sneak peek at what your favorite park was doing was to try and get your hands on a brand new park brochure. This was an annual trek my Father and I made in early spring... to places that had tourist brochures so I could pick up various park brochures and find out what was new! Sometimes those brochures would give you a preview of changes or additions to the park. However, most of the time you had to just wait until the parks were open again. I vivdly remember arriving at the park during those Linder years and being shocked when there was no Tumblebug, or Winnie Witches Cauldrons, or Der Spinner Keggers, or Ferris Wheel, or King Kobra (KD), or Flying Carpet, or Zodiac, or Wheel of Fortune, or... well, you get the idea. Paramount cleaned up a lot of the grittiness and uncleanliness of the parks, and they added some good (albeit short) rides. But they over-commercialized the parks and ignored themed areas. It's my opinion that they sacrificed some of the most ambiant rides/areas for the sake of way-too-technical or silly rides. (Examples: KI- killed Flying Eagles and 'tiques for IJST, KD - Killed the Old Dominion Train for... ick... Waynes World.) Cedar Fair IMO, is making good strides, but then I don't visit the park like I once did. As an outsider, they definitely seem to be keeping it clean and of course they installed the best ride in the park (Diamondback.) However, my personal opinion is that Snoopy Universe... or whatever the name is... is a HUGE mis-step. It doesn't suit KI, and has likely cost them the "Best Kids Area" title. (But that title was pretty much just a good favor vote by enthusiasts anyways...) The Nick characters (even though they were lost on me) were a huge draw with kids. Snoopy is, IMO, old school and lost on kids today over the age of 2. Shaggy

LOL, no.... but I do own an autographed copy of Greg's. ;-)

That's because it's a fable. Legend has it an low clearance/overhang knocked the camera off. But think about it, just how many low clearances do you recall on Racer? The actual truth is, the train returned and the camera mount had failed. The camera was still in place, but had fallen to the side. Saying it was "knocked off and could have killed a Brady" sounds much more dramatic. When in fact, they still used the same camera for the on-ride filming. The more difficult piece of that shot was how the cast had to remain "staggered" in their seats. Jan and Bobby had to sit far apart. Behind them, Mrs Brady and Alice had to sit closer together. Finally, Marcia and Greg had to crouch down and close together to be seen. Pay attention the next time you watch it. Neither Cindy or Mr Brady (Robert Reed) would ride it. In actuality, Robert Reed refused just because he was typically a bitter, stubborn, obstinate man. Shaggy

I personally consider it to be primarily a flume & but also a dark ride combo. The same holds true of Dudley Do-Rite at Universal IOA and Jurassic Park the ride. Shaggy

Take WDW's Magic Kingdom... wash it in hot water, then tuble dry on high heat. When done, you'll find it's shrunk to about 1/2 the size. That's Disneyland ;-) Disneyland is surreal to me. So much smaller, yet much more charming and historical. You can walk to the Haunted Mansion at Disneyland, and literally 20 feet away is Splash Mountain. BTW, another very special dark ride that holds a place in my heart is the now defunct "Snow White's Scary Adventures" at the Magic Kingdom. It was changed years ago after numerous complaints that it was simply too terrifying. Indeed the original was very, very scary! I recall my parents got the poo scared out of them when a surprise runaway mine-car came rolling at us. Both parents screamed, while I at the age of 10 just laughed hysterically. It was great! Here's the original:

It looks like it could easily rank as a favorite. My top 5 dark rides are as follows: 1. Spiderman 2. Tower Of Terror (WDW- Studios) 3. Haunted Mansion (Disney World) 4. Haunted Mansion (Disneyland) 5. Phantom Theatre Other notable favs include Knoebels, the old Enchanted Voyage, Pirates of The Carribean, Gobbler Getaway and the original Snow White's Scary Adventures. If you love great endings, Knoebels actually has the best I've ever seen. It's hysterical as a new rider, and as a spectator watching people as their cars exit. I'll not spoil the surprise ;-) (BTW, I don't scare easily at all... but Knoebels ranks as one of the very few that gave me a jolt... about half way through... HONK HONK. I nearly jumped out of the car and ran away!)