Shaggy

They were transported off property to a Marine Life tank in the south, from what I have been told. In addition, if memory serves me... the Dolphins weren't at KI every season in latter years of the Dolphin stadium's existence. The dolphins were roated season to season at the other parks (i.e. KD) What I mean is, KI may have had the dolphins one season and the next the arena housed an exotic bird show with a stage built on top of the pool. This began when the bird arena in Wild Animal Habitat was removed, I believe.

Thanks. There's a ton of *speculation* as to the actual location of the new 2011 attraction. My personal belief is that WindSeeker will be placed directly next to The Racer in the general area of the now removed Lazer tag dome. IMO, that's why the dome was removed in the first place. Cedar Fair has a long history of "preparing" areas seasons ahead of time. So from the time I heard that the dome was removed, I immediately figured the site was being prepped for a future attraction. I've not seen the Euro Balls, or whatever they are called, but doubt they have much bearing on the location of the install. A temporary, upcharge can easily give way to a new permanent install. Finally, IMO, it wouldn't seem wise to install WindSeeker in a tucked-away corner next to a busy coaster exit. Perhaps I am very wrong, but placement behind Vortex just wouldn't seem *right* to me. Locating it in the fomer Lazer Tag/Flight Commander site - directly on the midway - seems much more esthetically correct to me. Shaggy

The reason that sign was up was because they had originally planned on putting the Drop Tower on Flight Commanders ride pad. If memory serves me correctly, the original Drop Tower/Drop Zone was planned to be around 200ft until another park broke that record. Paramount then determined that it was necessary to relocate the ride to a site that would accommodate the weight of the tower. The Drop Zone tower planned for KI in 1997 was installed at Canada's Wonderland. KI made the decision, after initially promoting the Drop Tower in park, to expand the waterpark instead. Cedar Point was also expanding their waterpark (Soak City) in 1997 and KI opted to directly compete with them. The decision to install the gyro drop in what is now Action Zone, was not made until the 1998 season when Al Webber pushed to renovate the Adventure Villiage section of the park. This decision came in preperation for the future install of SOB and as a desire to re-invigorate that area of the park. The weight of the tower had little to do with the placement change. No matter where it would have gone, the immense steel girders would have had to be pounded into the ground to support it. The re-theme of the area is what promted it's install location. Shaggy

I totally forgot there used to be a pond over there too! That's not KI... that's King's Dominion.

Hmmm... Superman ROS at SF America is a coaster I enjoy quite a bit. It's a mirror of the one built at Darien Lake. I've ridden both and find the Darien Lake version just a bit more enjoyable. Unfortunately, both have some unmistakable "lagging" moments. However, the Superman ROS that everyone raves about is at Six Flags New England. It is now themed to Bizarro But IMO it's the best coaster in existance today. If you've not ridden it... plan to someday! Shaggy

Incorrect. All you have READ, and decided to retain, is the part about the shade. ;-) In this thread, I also said: -HW's dry park does not offer (enough) things that hold my interest from more than 1/2 a day. -I find Voyage to be extremely overrated and rough. -I find the layout cumbersome and confusing to novices. I could list other things (such as "cleanest park." It's clean, but not the cleanest I've been to.) But - repeating myself - I try not to compare one park to another. They all offer different things, some better, some worse. The following was stated: Holiday World is my favorite park so I always can get defensive about it! Bingo - that was exactly my point all along... there are people that are so passionate about HW (all entitled to that opinion) that they can be blinded to the fact that others may not share their feelings. I don't share your opinion, but I am not negating it. I posted my original $.02 because I agreed with a number of the points in the original TR. Also, I strongly feel that a person's experiences should not be negated based simply to root for a favorite park. Finally, a disclaimer: My expression of opinions on this board is not done in a defensive or malicious manner, so please don't ever interpret my posts in that way. Direct I am, a sourpuss I am not ;-)

Obviously folks are missing my point, yet ironically, prooving it. First, let's get this out of the way... again... I personally think the newer areas of HW have large areas of concrete/asphalt with little to no shading. That INCLUDES Splashin Safari. But the larger point I was making is many larger parks, such as KI's Boomerang Bay or Action Zone... or Cedar Point... or Knotts... etc all have areas that suffer from the same issue. However, because Holiday World is "beloved" by so many fans, it's shortcomings and flaws are often overlooked. Many folks are quick to defend HW's flaws yet hold it against other parks, that's been exhemplified here. Second, when I said I'd prefer other parks over HW, I meant it. I don't find HW to be among my most fufilling park experiences. *SHOCK! HORROR! BLASPHEME!* I'd much rather go to a handful of others if given the choice. Top of the list would likely be KI... hence the reason I am posting on a KI fansite and not a HW fansite. (Apparently that fact gets lost easily LOL!) I try not to compare parks to parks... that's like comparing apples to oranges in many instances. However I know my tastes and what holds my interests. HW holds my interest for about 1/2 a day. That's not saying I don't enjoy it... it simply means I don't find enough to hold my attention. I can have a good time there, and have, but don't care to spend full or multiple days at the park. Think of it this way... that's actually good news for you folks that may seem upset by my opinion... it means one less suburned person in line ahead of you at HW ;-) Shaggy

Is that really a complaint? You want shading, go inside or ride a water ride. Yes, it's a complaint. I don't care for overly unshaded areas. Go inside? Ride a water ride? Is that really a SOLUTION? Oy vey! And I love Knoebels, but how do you mention that as a park with more to do than HW .. ? Where did I say it had more to do than HW? I didn't. It just appeals to me more than HW ever has. My opinion, you're not going to change it.

My $.02 While I respect other's great enjoyment for HW, I personally have never been bowled over by the park. It has lovely employees, and is very clean. It has some fun rides, and a terrific waterpark. However, it cannot hold my attention for more than a few hours. Now if I had a young family, I'd probably rave about HW. It's designed and structured specifically for a family experience. My main issues are that I find the layout EXTREMELY cumbersome and to the novice... confusing. Many (newer) areas of the park are giant areas of bright, light colored concrete or asphalt with little to no shading. In addition, I find Voyage to be one of the roughest coasters I've ever ridden. I've never understood the overwhelmingly glowing reviews of that ride. I had my best experiences at HW as an attendee at the now defunct Stark Raven Mad events. Riding Raven and Legend in the pitch dark was, quite frankly, unequaled by any other Enthusiast/ERT events I've ever attended. (My gosh they were insanely fun!) However even then, I couldn't fathom how people spend an entire day... let alone weekend... in the dry park only. What amazes me about HW is it's avid, and avidly defensive, fan base in the coaster community. Quite frankly, if you don't have glowing things to say about HW, then you run the risk of being chastized for it. (Not saying that is happening in this thread... however...) It's almost as though it's viewed as saying something negative about someone's Grandmother, or kicking a puppy. HW has many of the same issues other parks are reamed for. However it's "reputation" precedes it. Given the choice of visiting Holiday World or the likes of Hersheypark, or KI, or CP, or WDW, or IOA, or BGW, or Knoebels, or Dollywood etc etc etc... I'd choose one of the latter. They just offer things more in line with my attention span. Shaggy

Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't know until you said that a settlement deal with SF was now on the table. But the point still remains... I think SF yanked the rides they specifically wanted out of the park prior to the closure. Apparently, with the exception of RR Express, the remaining rides were not really ones they'd choose to re-locate. IMO, it would cost millions upon millions to gut and re-locate the remaining rides in KK as so many of you are hoping they will. Ultimately, I feel we'll see some of the remaining rides re-opened, but eventually they will give way to a sole waterpark focus.

Did any of you seriously expect the entire ride selection of KK to be overhauled for the $20M price tag Hart is proposing? A waterpark is the best option for KK, has been for a long time. KK's waterpark was it's most popular draw... not the rides. Many Louisville city pools, and neighborhood pools were closed 2 years ago due to budget cuts. Many of those pools now have their land for sale by the city. I guarantee that Hart plans include asking the state for the funds to offset the loss of local pools in order to "revitalize" KK as a waterpark. It's as much an economical move as it is an attempt to "help out" his buddy Workman at the Fairgrounds. This is also an attempt to directly compete with HW's draw from Louisville. The recent news editorial (that aggrivated so many on this board) goes arm and arm with this. The irony to all of this is that Mr Hart possibly wants to convert the main entrance to the park on the back-side of the property. No doubt to garner access from the local hotels that are currently cut off by a State Fair perimeter fence. That, my friends, is where you may see a potential problem arise. Workman wants the park open for the parking revenue... pure and simple. Hart wants to open the possibility of folks not needing to park on the Fairgrounds property. That will not fly. I think Hart probably knows that the rides will ultimately belong to SF. My prediction is that the courts will decide that any non-permanent structure (rides) are the property of SF. Ironically, I would suspect SF really doesn't care to relocate the likes of Greezed Lightning, T2, Twisted Twins. They pulled what they wanted to keep out of the park a long time ago. So what rides remain at KK will be cast offs. Bottom line, it's best suited as a waterpark.

Wasn't the church that bought the land originally going to re-furbish parts of the waterpark for their own purposes? Like for use in the summertime as a draw to the church? Seems like there was once a thread on this site debating the philosophy of that. ... actually there was a thread... Here's the link: http://www.KICentral.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10371&hl=surf&st=0 Shaggy

Here's how I rank the ones I have ridden: Apollo's Chariot Nitro Diamondback Raging Bull I'll let you know later this year how I feel about Goliath SFOG.

Maybe I missed it, but I fail to see where Mr Arnold was so "terrible" with what he said about HW or other parks. Actually he's right about Beech Bend marketing hitting the Louisville market hard this year. Holiday World has always been aggressive in their competing campaign opposing SFKK... they annually placed billboard ads visible from within KK. However, It does strike me as odd that this all comes on the heels of a devistatingly bad weekend at the fairgrounds. They had one of their big flea market extravaganzas... something that in the past has brought in humongous crowds. Apparently vendors at the flea market are up in arms because there was no money to be made and it ended up being a flop. The fairgrounds increased the parking price to an exhorbitant $8. (That's up $2 since the spring and up $5 from 5 years ago!) which drove away attendees. In addition, Stewart Promotions had to increase costs of space rental due to higher rent being charged by the Fair Board for hall space. I have said it before, I'll say it again... Workman and the Fair Board are good-ol-boys that are to blame for this whole mess. But, according to what I have read here, KI was definitely not a benefactor of the demise of SFKK... at least not this past weekend. I guarantee you that if KK were to have been open this year, it would have been a very slow weekend for them as well.

Go easy on touchdown62... However, the point stands... If you actually take a look at the overall "details," it seems Paramount may have actually paid more attention to them than CF has so far. Paramount not only re-furbed the Fountains, but they also spent a huge chunk of change having all the old lights on the tops of the International Street buildings replaced. When I was there last year, there were many, many bulbs out. Paramount was also responsible for the re-lighting of the Eiffel Tower with the rotational colors. They also kept the band organ functional on the carousel. CF, to my knowledge, does not have any working band organs on ANY of their carousels. Seems fishy to me. Paramount uncovered and restored the amazing stained glass window located in the Festhaus. It was hidden for years and years. They also maintained the Bavarian clock. CF has now discontinued it's use, and from what I have read on here, stripped it of it's mechanics. Now, I am not saying CF is doing a bad job. I am just saying that their attention is obviously not focused on some of the "little things" that always made KI so charming. Shaggy

Huh? Paramount actually spent $1M restoring the fountains. They were completely gutted and re-done with the pool being re-sealed, the plumbing re-done and the lighting updated. Paramount hasn't owned the park in nearly 5 years... reading this thread indicates there are fountain effects not working this season. How is that' the previous owner's fault?

I used a tanning bed off and on for nearly 15 years. I have very, very fair skin and red hair. I did it just to keep some sort of pigment to my skin. In addition, I suffer from winter depression and my Doctor actually told me to go to a tanning bed once a week. It definitely helped with the "blahs" and enabled me to avoid getting burned in the summertime (not to mention not being embarassed to go shirtless etc.) However... This past spring I saw a dermatologist for some spots that began appearing and giving me concern. (I am quickly approaching 40) I came out unscathed, but was made aware that I will likely battle skin cancer as I age due to my skin tone and years of indoor tanning. (I never over-tanned or got really brown, but it doesn't matter.) It scares me to death of what I *may* face. I stopped tanning 2 years ago, and although all is good so far, I'd deter anyone from going for the simple fact of what it may bring. Quite frankly, I see the tax an attempt to deter folks. But I'll be surprised if it makes a difference. There is still too much vanity placed on having a tan, and those with pale skin still feel singled out. Until attitudes toward looks change, people will pay the price. Shaggy

Bingo! That's the term!

LOL, what I know isn't really inside information... just general knowledge I picked up. Many of the older, more established wooden coaster maintenance folks at KI at the time SOB was built were the ones that had to jump on board and "fix" the coaster. It was literally all hands on deck. However, don't fault them, applaud them. Remember, they were maintenance technicians, not designers or engineers. They had to encorporate the knowledge they had from years of maintaining The Beast (and Racer) into making SOB work. If you will recall, Beast and Racer were 20 and (nearly) 30 years old by the time SOB came around. In the earliest years of SOB, the wood coaster maintenance team would start walking track on SOB at something insane like 3:30 am. Everyday it took them hours and hours to walk that ride and have it ready for the public at 10am. They'd rip out entire sections in the dark and replace them literally overnight. It took a terrible toll on those guys. Several of those fellas retired shortly therafter, from what I heard. Shaggy

A great example of a steel structure comperable to Voyage was Villain. Villain was installed as part of a giant rides package when Six Flags branded Geauga Lake as Six Flags Ohio. It was built with a steel structure in order to allow the park to install a very large wooden coaster while keeping cost lower (to spend on other upgrades to the park.) The first year, Villian was an incredible ride. By year two, not so good. After that, it became virtually painful to ride. Obviously this was partly due to the horrid Gerstlaur trains. But even so, the coaster became terribly jarring and unenjoyable very, very quickly. Most significantly, the "flying carpet" trick track section during the 1st half of the ride was literally like riding over gravel. That's because it was on a steel structure very close to the ground/footings. The steel didn't flex, the track had no where to go... so that inertia had to be absorbed elsewhere... thus the train shuddered riders throughout the whole section. It was like going over those warning divots on the side of the interstate.... you know the ones that vibrate your car when you drift too far to the shoulder? But worse... To see for yourself... watch this video. Pay attention at the :18 to :23 portion. Shaggy

I have to disagree. Although things like maintenance and enviroment may play a part, ultimately a steel structure coaster is much more budget concious. I guarantee that the lowered cost of installing a steel structure was why Will chose it for Voyage. He wanted more bang for his buck. Overall, from what I have witnessed, steel structures become much rougher much sooner. Because the steel structure has much less give, then the track must take on more of the flexibility. That causes more wear and tear on the coaster running boards, and causes roughness. I have ridden many, many steel-structured woodies that suffer from this same roughness. Voyage, IMO, is a wild and very intense coaster. It's not re-rider friendly (again my opinion) due to the intensity of the design, and inflexibility of the structure. Shaggy

You don't think the tracking SoB has received was due to the roughness, but the usual wear-and-tear? I think Sob would have required more-than-average (whatever that may be) retracking than other wooden coasters in general BECAUSE of the over the top wear and tear. But the additional design flaws, roughness and lack-of-enjoyment (and safety) factor blew maintenance needs through the roof. Does that make sense? I guess I am saying SOB would have required extra track attention no matter... however the flaws exaggerated that need far beyond what was expected.

I'm not sure if you've ridden Prowler yet, but the ride is excellent IMO. Prowler filled a huge hole in their coaster lineup and is an absolute joy to ride to boot. It's also much more tolerable for the GP than Voyage and is thus much more re-rideable. Worlds of Fun hit a home run with that coaster and I'd say they got their money's worth. On a quick tangent, I'm hoping that the success that Renegade and Prowler have enjoyed leads Cedar Fair to really take a hard look at adding GCIs through more of their parks. I realize that Valleyfair and Worlds of Fun don't get the traffic that bigger parks in the chain like Cedar Point or KI get, but the GP would eat up a good GCI coaster. There's also the obvious difference between GCI's Prowler and HW's Voyage... Prowler is a true, 100% wooden coaster. Voyage is not... it's a steel structure... and that allowed them to go higher and farther... physically and monetarily. Shaggy

Sure they do, in certain areas and increase with age. SoB has been re-tracked in it's brief 10 year history much more than the average wooden coaster. I do believe, however, that the constant re-tracking of SOB would have been a necessity even if the coaster were a roaring success. Overall, even if it had no design flaws, SOB was an immense wooden coster that went really, really high and really, really fast. I am 110% sure the park knew that maintenance would be at a much higher level than even The Beast. However, KI at the time was operating with the best wooden coaster maintenance team in the business. Many who began at the park under Charlie Dinn when then Beast was built. Without them, I don't think SOB would have even lasted 2 seasons. Really and truly, no other park could have made SOB operate to the extent that it did.

My pleasure. SOB has had TONS of little changes over time, some bigger, some smaller. It's hardly the ride it was designed to be. But then, the original designer has never ridden it... or been to KI since it was built... IMO, it's the greatest failure of Werner Stengel's career. Also IMO, KI (both Paramount and CF) should be commended on always stepping up to the plate to try and right a ton of wrongs that were design/construction flaws. Their intentions for the ride have always been good, but ultimately they were promised a gem... only to recieve a lemon. Shaggy