Browntggrr

There is a new "cement pond".

^ When was KI even in the so-called "coaster race"? That conversation is usually a CP vs. SFMM debate. And again, I never stated that any coaster is built primarily with the "coaster geek" in mind. But simply that the "coaster geeks" do have influence on a park's decisions. And yes, those -est coasters I mentioned were built for bragging rights. No doubt. Now do you believe that those "bragging rights" influence the GP more, or enthusiasts more? Also, let's take a look at what CP did with Maverick. Did they build the anticipation with online stories, signs, and clues with the GP in mind? Or did CP do all those things with the hope that members of the GP would become enthusiasts themselves, purchase season passes, and give the park all kinds of free advertisment by discussing the new project with others? In years' past I have believed that, as you do now, enthusiasts don't mean that much to a park. A few weeks ago, I was proven wrong. My local park, Waldameer, opened a new coaster. There were so many groups of "coaster geeks" there for media day and opening day, I was astonished. The park provided behind the scenes picture and video opportunities for the "coaster geeks", so much so that I felt it could have ruined the opening day for the ride if one person would have been injured (people were on the walkways of the track with trains going by). I could not also believe that the park also provided Applebee's lunch to those in attendance. The "coaster geeks" were treated like royalty. I had the opportunity to ask the owner of Waldameer, Paul Nelson, why he would allow such events, and his hospitality, to take place. His response was simple. "Those coaster "kids" () will keep bringing in people 10 years from now more than any advertisments will. How they feel about this park and how they feel about our new ride will have the largest influence than our park had ever experienced." While "coaster geeks" may be a small percentage by an attendence standpoint, what they say and how they say it has a profound influence into how the GP feels about a park and about a ride. The GP may not be members of a "coaster geek" site, but that does not mean they don't look up information as well. What they read is spread around by word of mouth. Sometimes the information is accurate, often times inaccurate. But when people keep hearing the same thing over and over, it becomes believable. And when a person keeps hearing that SoB is not worth it, and then finally experiences the ride for themselves, they are already going in with the attitude that the ride is crap. Now what about SoB is going to change their mind? Other rides can change a person's mind (Beast is a prime example), but does SoB have the same effect on people?

As I anticipated you would, you missed the point. Yes, "coaster geeks" have been banging the proverbial drum for a hyper steel, preferably B & M, for YEARS now. (And an FYI, KI does have "some type of hyper coaster". Ironically it is SoB.) Those same "coaster geeks" that have been begging for a hyper steel, also dislike SoB. So if you listened to the "coaster geeks" complain about the lack of a huge steelie at KI, you have to of heard the same complaints about SoB. Now to answer your question without the sarcasm: Is KI building the new coaster to satisfy "coaster geeks"? I'm sure that the "coaster geeks" opinion was factored into the planning of this new ride, but they certainly were not the only group thought of during planning. Will the "coaster geeks" be completely satisfied? Hell no. They are never satisfied. But now let me ask you: Were record breaking coasters like MF, TTD, SoB, KK built with the GP in mind? Do you actually think the GP in Texas gives a crap about a record breaking coaster on the shores of Lake Erie? Or a wooden looping coaster in Southern Ohio? Does the GP even know that TTD was the first 400'+ coaster on the planet. Do they even care?

Replying to your edit: Has the coaster community been whining for years that KI needs something like this? Where did you get that information from? As far as coaster events: it really doesn't matter if you care about them or not. But if the parks felt the same way, the events would not take place. Since they do take place, it is quite obvious that parks do listen to what "coaster geeks" say and react to how they feel within the best intrests of the park. I am also not making generalizations. I simply supplied information of various sites from "coaster geeks" on how they feel about SoB. I never mentioned that the GP likes or dislikes SoB. I do not have access to that information. Do you? I would love to hear it. I have simply stated that with the information that we do have access to, people do not like SoB. But the opinions of how "coaster geeks" feel about SoB certainly show a trend that most don't like the ride. Much like a straw poll, internet poll, movie ratings, or a restaurant review etc. Sure, they are not the end all of how the majority feels, but they are certainly listened to and they also give a good pulse as to the trend. For instance: you can usually find a good movie review for every bad movie review. But when the majority of critics agree that a movie is bad, the trend is that the movie is bad (i.e. Gigli, Batman & Robin etc.). I really don't see that much a difference when it comes down to coasters.

And I am also not comparing one coaster against another. Where did you get that from? And I am not trying to figure out if the GP loves or hates SoB. You are. Again, with the information we have through "coaster geek" sites, SoB is not a good coaster. If the GP would have their own input about SoB, you would immediately tag them as an enthusiast and throw out their opinion. So, as I have asked before, what is valid? And now since you have brought it up, what do you consider a SMALL sampling of guests? And since representitives of parks do frequent "coaster geek" sites like KIC, obviously the park does listen to a "SMALL sample", even though you refuse to. If the "coaster geeks" do not provide enough information for you as to how well SoB is received, so be it. But then that also means that all "coaster geek" sites should be treated with the same respect and their feelings thrown out as well. It's a good thing that park representatives do not feel that way or such events as: Coastermania, KIC day, BeastBuzz, Holiwood nights, and the X2 campout would never happen.

^ You can only base information off of enthusiasts opinions because, again, they are the only ones that actually compile data. The GP does not. Nor has the GP actually been on enough coasters to form an opinion that is not tainted or fanboy driven. I'm not saying that the GP doesn't count, but if they have only been on 5 wooden coasters, and are all in the state of Ohio, how can they say (hypothetically) that SoB is better than El Toro? And even though an enthusiast makes up a small percentage of the customers base, if an enthusiast goes to 50 parks a year, and the GP only goes to 2 parks a year, which group has a better feel as to which parks/ rides are better? And in reading all the enthusiast sites, a majority (90%) of them dislike SoB. You can't change how they feel, they just don't like it. I can't hide the way they feel. It is clearly in black and white for all to see. And again, an enthusiast has been on more rides, has an idea what to expect, and knows how to "ride" a coaster. The last thing an enthusiast wants is to hate a coaster.

When did I say anything about the GP's feelings?

Thought this looked familiar: http://www.KICentral.com/forums/index.php?...c=12554&hl=

And thank you for sharing such an inspirational, well thought out, and detailed comment!

^^ I don't think he was saying those that actually need the service of going up the exit ramp is an issue, but it is those who cheat to gain handicap accessibility and go up the exit ramp is the problem. If they do happen to cheat their way in, those are some cold hearted people.

Kings Island only owns two trains. really now? did you not read the post that was 2 before yours? ki has the trains from villain! plus if ki only owned 2 trains how in the world would they be able to have 13 other coasters there? You have to be joking. Do you actually think that you can swap trains from coaster to coaster like a lightbulb lamp to lamp? KI had to retrofit the new SoB trains for the gaging of the track. The Villian trains, or any other trains at the park, cannot be used on SoB unless the are greatly modified.

Predicting what rides will be operating in poor weather is like trying to predict the weather. What we don't see while in the park is the weather radar. If the radar can see severe weather coming, then the rides will close down. If a brief shower is passing through, the park is more apt to not close rides down completely. There is really no black and white specific rules when it comes down to the weather policy since every weather front is different, thus different scenarios take place. But you can bet, the park will take the "safer the better" attitude and close rides down even if the threat is small. Sometimes the radar will show a severe front close to the park, and the decision to close the rides down will be made, only to have the front completely miss the park by a few miles. Guests is the park will be upset since the weather never hit, but the park does not have much of a choice. What if the severe weather hits, which knocks out power to the park, and people have to be evacuated down lift hills during a storm? That is just a bad situation no matter what way you look at it. And, god forbid, if someone would happen to be injured during the evacuation. The park would have a lawsuit on their hands.

That is actually one of the worst times to go. I have been their on the 4th, and it wasn't too bad. But the days after- YIKES! It was nuts. Many people will bookend their summer vacation around the 4th for extra paid days off that are considered company vacation and not personal vacation. Many people where I work are taking off July 2nd thru the 11th off, but are using only 6 days of personal vacation but have a full 12 days off. Also, many manufactoring businesses will have their shutdown during around 4th and people have to take their vacations during that time. Two weeks before or after the 4th is a great time to go (during the week). Fridays and/ or Sundays during Halloweekends are fantastic, don't go on Saturdays during Halloweekends. Those Saturdays are consistantly the busiest days on CP's calander.

So I can only provide enthusiast sites and it is considered the opinions of others, and 4-5 marathoning trains is not the same thing? And the real funny thing about your link to ScreamScape, the information they provide are from the same enthisiasts that you believe don't have a valid opinion. Just from a numbers standpoint, you heard less than 30 people's opinions duiring the marathon, where I provided sites that have thousands of members. There is no doubt that some people love SoB, and they are entitled to their opinion. But how 30 marathoning people can be compared and have more of an opinion to thousands of people on the internet is still rather confusing.

^ Well considering that the general public does not compile data, and enthusiasts do gather data, what can be considered valid? Or should we not listen to anyone, how they feel, or their reaction to a ride? That is just arrogant. Or is it, nothing is valid because some people want to look through rose colored glasses, and, god forbid, a ride they like is not well recieved. What I find intresting is: what is the difference between what you heard with those "marathoning" guests on SoB 4-5 times and the information of how others feel that I have provided? Well though I never claimed to be a statistical genius I think it is made pretty obvious when all I've ever heard is cheering after the ride and watched people "marathon", if you will, the thing about 4-5 times. And, what is the difference between myself using an enthusiast internet site as a source of information, and you discrediting them, but you can use and enthusiast site, and post information as if it's valid? So the sites you bring up are to be believed, but the other sites that I brought up are just a bunch of people that just don't count? ... and I'm the one that is letting opinions get into the way of trying to substitue a fact? Ok.

Does this make any sense to anyone else, because it makes no sense to me: If they can't pinpoint a reason, then how can they say that the injuries would have been less severe if the cable was less deteriorated and/ or failure to hit the E-Stop button?

Sure the GP's opinion means more. Enthusiasts make up a very small percentage of the park's attendence. But it is also the GP that gets most of their information from the local media and word of mouth, neither of which can be considered reliable.

Go to other enthusiast sites to see the data. Every site has fanboys and haters for a certain park, ride, company etc. The one thing almost everyone agrees on is that SoB, even with the modifications, could close down tomorrow and they would not be upset. I would more than happy to give a list of sites, just IM me.

^ We are talking about re-entry for the dinner, not re-entry for the park.

Yikes. It really is a good thing that the part did not hit anyone. From all indications, SH at CP is still operating.

Now that it has been brought up; what would have been more expensive: 1) Removing the loop, making the necessary repairs & modifications, and purchasing/ modifing/ and testing new trains. 2) Complete removal prior to option # 1. I am no accountant, but that is a tough one. Especially since CF did not know if option # 1 was going to work. Big risk. Real BIG risk.

When it costs the same as a Jimmy Buffet concert ticket.

^ Hard to argue that. For half the original cost of SoB, we could have had a fantastic coaster. (see Voyage or Thunderhead) Oh well. Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

I don't think it is sloppy writing at all. It is quite clear. The statement about no re-admission was written after the time of the event, and in the same sentence as ticket valid for one visit to the event. Since when is an "event" considered an all day ticket?

You really should listen much closer. What you believe to be cheering for the ride, are actually cheers that the ride is over. If you listen even closer, you will hear the groans of pain. What you consider how boring SoB's layout is, there really is nothing exciting about the ride. The only rush you get is the speed down the lift hill, after that, it is a jackhammering ride that does not let up. Now let's look at the facts. There is a constant arguement as to which the best coasters are. Coaster enthusiasts have their own agenda as to which element combination is the best. So every coaster poll you can find has a different top 10. But guess what? You'll never believe which wooden coaster is near the bottom of every poll. Yeah, the same one you hear, or claim to hear, cheers for. Now how can all these polls disagree as to which the best wooden coaster is, yet agree as to which is near the worst? Hmmmm.... Prime example: http://www.ushsho.com/woodpoll14yeartable2007.htm Now don't let my comments fool you. I would rather have a terrible SoB than no SoB. But don't try and tell me that a majority of the public loves the ride because you have heard cheering after the ride and you have seen people marathoning it 4 to 5 times. There are some things that cannot be changed no matter how hard you want them to.