silver2005

I stand corrected on the whole park not actually saying what it is issue. I'm going by the call @IndyGuy4KI made to the park, but to me, that was good enough and is still the park going out of their way. The other reason that's good enough for me is because I imagine Brad introduced himself as an admin here thus they knew in that context it would be spread as a kind of official statement. They didn't have to give him an explanation and it obviously isn't important enough to them given what they are working on currently, nor should it be IMO. They're still documenting Orion going up without the webcams which is good enough for me. I mean, if it is incompetence, then that's also a non-issue with me. Every park encounters that in some form. However, its still the case that the park doesn't owe an explanation and we're likely not going to get an explanation for something so insignificant. This whole thing is stopped cold by that fact.

@sixohdieselrage But they aren't telling you the exact reason a ride goes down and, again, aren't obligated to. If you know that's the way its going to be with the webcams and are just going to sit as patiently or impatiently for them to get back up like anyone else, why keep pressing on it? To me, the park went out of their way to say something at all, which, those can still be valid as the problem could be bigger than you're all thinking. Incompetence shows up at any park so that doesn't make KI any more special in this circumstance. Being a private property means they are allowed not to tell you everything. I also think the vast majority of you are blowing this webcam business way, way, way out of proportion in relation to how it affects the park's bottom line. Most people viewing the cams are already KI fans and a slight malfunction won't be enough for them not to come back and continue purchasing tickets/passes/merch, etc. Unless you can prove that correlation in a way that is meaningful to the park's well being, its a non-issue with me.

Then what's the difference between the park not telling people why individual rides get shut down and the park not saying why the webcams are shut down?

^Then you're being upset at the park's lack of tranparency over guessing and things that aren't in your control. EDIT: @PilotDude I also never said I knew anything, you're putting words in my mouth or being very bad at assuming things about my words. You guys aren't even trying to see things from what I've laid out.

But you nor any other member aren't in a position to know if they are potential lies because 1) none of you work for the park and 2) the park really doesn't owe explanations. Don't brush that part aside. The best you guys are doing is guess-timations. I'm guessing we're just simply not getting the explanation for this. You're dropping a huge accusation towards the park for an event that doesn't warrant it. Like, what good does it actually do to know why they're down? What does the park telling people why actually achieve? They don't tell you what's wrong with individual rides when they're down, right? What's the difference with how they don't tell you why the webcams are down? Those 2 are equivalent responses and the park has been consistent on that. They're still documenting the construction of Orion. There's no doubt they won't. I don't get your guys' end goal in going through all this.

There's one big point about the park transparency that keeps bring brought up that I'd like to dissect as well, the whole thing about how the Eiffel Tower is using power to use the elevators and lights and the webcams are off. Most of these people are judging that based off of things they themselves admit to not knowing about, which is how they are using the electricity and stuff going on about electrical engineering. You're basing your whole lack of transparency premise off of things you're guessing on. There's no foundation to that argument coming from people who don't know about electrical engineering and acting like you know the park isn't telling the truth. Why should I believe any of these claims from people who admit to not being entirely knowledgeable about the situation? That's jumping to conclusions and going after the park with an accusation that isn't a light accusation. Saying the park is lying or not being transparent isn't something to brush aside. The act of the accusation and the framing of the argument is what I've been having a problem with. There are other angles to seeing why the webcams are down to be acknowledged and people are posting like they've nailed it and can't accept other reasons no matter how plausible or true. Those members are hammering and relying on those notions without being in a position to be knowledgeable to make those claims in the first place. Unless you can make yourself credible by explaining why you know things and lay it out why (ex. actually being an electrical engineer and fully knowing how the park's and ET's power grid works), the claims of lack of transparency and/or lying hold no water.

I think the problem with how the forums are going, and it particularly pertains to this thread, is that people on the different sides of the issue don't know how to counter argue respectfully, don't know what the counterarguments are, and in general come to their conclusion without stepping back and trying to see others' point of view and don't allow their viewpoints to change when presented with new information. Its easy to come to your own conclusions in your head and rationalized it to be true, but once presented with new points of view, its important to try and see things from those new perspectives. I think there's a growing lack of that in this forum as a whole and its centered right now on this webcam topic. If you really want to see the forums be something productive and engaging, you have to be able to do that. Everyone has different points of view and perspective, even on topics you think are cut and dry, black and white. Saying for people to just not read is pretty poor choice in words. Its been difficult to veer from that as a lot of members continue to post with the mindset of those criticisms and the way they project them onto other threads. Its hard to escape one thread's points because often members still post that on other threads despite other members' and mods' best intentions to 'stay on topic'. The whole webcams thing has become a sort of 'Topic A' right now with how much its being brought up. For those who've been here a while- remember how every thread used to always bring up SOB? Its happening again (albeit more subtle and less widespread) with this webcam thing, and it did when the whole b***** giga thing was brought up, too. Its because tangents can be on topic as well- showing different examples of something happening and looking for similarities and differences in events and theories is natural to see different perspectives. There still needs to be a focus, but going off of tangents is a perfectly normal thing to do in conversations and shouldn't be frowned upon as being 'off topic'. I think a lot of us have different ideas of how far you can go on tangents and be 'on' or 'off' topic. Its also been commonplace here lately to see people brush aside and be dismissive of others' arguments as well, and people overreact in groups to one person having a 'dissenting' viewpoint to where the person having that different viewpoint feels the need to get overly defensive because a lot of unfair and untrue criticisms get flung around (ex. members pointing out that someone is being 'preachy'). And I think the whole term 'argument' has been misunderstood and mischaracterizatized as well. There are different types of 'arguments'. There are the ones that most people know of where they just disagree and don't come to a disagreement, but there is also the way where you see the varying viewpoints, most of the time are in disagreement, but you then take information from those varying sides and come to a conclusion based on the entirety of the viewpoints. Its a very common thing in college writing, especially when it comes to providing counterarguments for criticisms. That's one of the first things you get taught in writing courses.

@sixohdieselrage I think we just agree to disagree what the park's handling of the webcam is and how big it is. I think of all the KI priorities, the webcams are right near the bottom considering they're getting ready to transition from Haunt to Winterfest and I still honestly think you guys wanting transparency and other members' beside yourself making unsubstantiated claims of the park lying are going about it all wrong and perhaps a bit misguided. The park has 0 obligation to be transparent about the webcams. Yes, they happen to be down during a big moment in its construction, but I think you guys harking on the park are out of touch with a lot of other things. I ask to whom this affects because really, how much does this one anecdotal situation have on the grand scheme of things? There's no pattern in what the park has been doing to deserve any of that scorn. One incident, even if it is true, isn't a pattern. I think there's been a lot of jumping to conclusions in all of this as well. And I know a lot of the claims of not being relaxed are aimed at me and to that I ask- when does disagreement equal not being relaxed? I think a lot of you just weren't prepared for counterarguments and overreacted. I think a lot of my claims in defending the park are still quite valid. Don't expect your opinions to be automatically taken at face value and for everyone to agree, no matter how hard you try in rationalizing it in your head.

Here's where I'm gonna blow some of your minds in agreeing with you. With the added evidence of the eyes being lit up, I will partially agree with the notion that the park is taking a bit long to get the web cams back up. There's still no way you will still convince me the park lied, but it is odd that the wait has been lengthy. In that way, I'll give you guys a little ounce of credit. I think the cameras are still on with the messages they're sending when you click on them plus the fact there are stills of previous images.

Based entirely off of how they're handling the webcams? You're kidding, right? There are many other areas that the park could screw up which that would be true. The webcams aren't one of those issues. I think most of you are stuck in the enthusiast social bubble.

What do average customers have to benefit from that information?

I don't get why you think I'm not relaxed. I'm simply building my points of speculation from another side of this and voicing my opinions as well. And don't act like you haven't been tense in your opinions either. You're the one defending building the case with the claims of the park lying in the first place. You can't say that isn't drama.

You keep bringing it up and defending it as if you think I'm just going to take what you say at face value. I don't agree with your stances on this and I am choosing to voice that as I think you guys spreading the park lying notion are in fact spreading the bad information. I don't think you realize how much anyone can pick this stuff apart and find giant logical holes in this. I'm having you spell it out on purpose so I can show how bad this argument is. At this point, I just think we're going to agree to disagree.

But why are you framing it as 'changing the story'? Both those events can happen one after the other. The park knew they'd shut down the webcams eventually for the tower plans, so they upgraded software before they turned off the power, so they did and said they did both. The part that you said you don't know all about how electrical things work makes me take your argument with a grain of salt, so all this speculation on a lie is just that- speculation. You have no proof beyond what you think you know, to which even you admit isn't enough to come to a conclusion. You guys are getting in a fuss about speculation with no solid proof. This notion should be dead in the water. And again, even if the park miffed this up- who does it affect that this would hurt the park. Only enthusiasts are watching the cams and keeping up with this stuff to even have a single iota of what is going on. You guys are just stirring up a drama pot at this point.

You can point out flaws in an argument and remain calm. They aren't mutually exclusive.

And its not like the maintenance crews routinely go up and down stairs all the time. Oh wait... I think I made my point in there being a lot of holes in these lie accusations towards the park. No one can really string all these separate parts together it seems.

Even if the park did make a miscalculation on this, what does this really affect? How many people outside enthusiasts, which aren't even 1% of their demographics, does this really bother? A vast majority of non-enthusiasts are okay with those explanations. There's a lot of unfounded anger from you guys with this as you really aren't seeing the large picture, mainly because there is no large picture because we're doing all this over a few webcams, which are pretty low on the park's priority list. I guarantee if you take this to an average person or the media, they'll scoff at the notion.

1. Does the tower have separate power sources for the elevator and lighting since the lighting is additional? 2. Can't they go up the elevator, turn off the power, do what they need to, turn on the power, go down the elevator, etc? EDIT: 3. Aren't there stairs?

And....what? You guys need to walk this whole thing from point A to point B for me, because so far, these arguments hold no water. Go for long posts, make all of what you guys think are the 'logical' connections. I got the time.

So why can't both be true at the same time? Like they got a software update in before they shut off power to work on the Winterfest lighting. That seems very plausible.

Someone explain this park lying thing to me because I genuinely don't understand where you guys are coming from. Nothing the park has said has lead me to believe they are falsifying anything.

Don't you guys have anything else of interest to do while waiting for the cams to go back up? Is asking for patience too hard to ask for? These 2 questions are both rhetorical and genuine questions. I get wanting to watch Orion go up, but I also get I could be doing anything else when I know I can't watch them besides berate the park and the mods.

Even if I were a regular, I probably wouldn't have it like that. I rarely get the same thing on consecutive visits anymore.

^Waiters and waitresses won't work at KI because the meal plans drastically reduce tips. If you want good Skyline while at the park, just drive the 5 minutes to the one by The Beach.

Luckily, sunset will be occurring before the park closes on the 27th, so I'll be able to get some shots of it at sunset before it leaves.