Re-living the old days

[Timbo1]

I wish I had a way to track all the changes over the years, I mean the photos are great but not everything is explained. Example having aerial shots of the whole park yearly would really show the growth and changes. (Not to mention make for a better park map.) It took me forever to figure out where King Cobra and the Screamin Deamon were located in the park but still can't figure out why they are gone. I know (Mr. Know it all park geek) cost to rehab and replace part was high, but really wheels and shocks justify a million dollar tear down and a multi-million dollar new ride in the same spot. I love new rides but I love more than that I want more rides to lessen the lines. So example SOB do the Texas giant treatment on it for about 15 million since your only spending 5 mill on WindSeeker. Lastly before I go, why take away all the water that used to surround rides like The Beast and such. Water can help reduce the temperature in the park during those hot summer days, shallow flowing and recirculating water would also look nice. Thanks for the time. Lets hear your take. Thanks

[thekidd33]

Welcome to KIC!

I'll hit on a few of your points and let others with more knowledge handle the rest.

-First of all it would be really cool to see a series of overhead photos from the park each year. This would really be a neat way to see how the park has evolved.

-King Cobra was removed due to metal fatigue in its supports. My understanding is that lower grade steel was used for these and as a result they did not hold up over the years as expected.

-While we all wish the park had unlimited funds to add/fix things, that just isn't the case.

-I too would love to see the return of working water effects on some of the rides/areas that have lost them (particularly BLSC)! I believe the pond around beast was drained partially due to all the bugs the standing water was attracting.

[XGatorHead 8904]

thekidd33 is correct, King Cobra was removed due to being built from inferior Japanese steel, and the water was removed from around The Beast station due to the bugs, in particular the mosquitoes that it attracted.

While I mourn the loss of these things as well, these were good reasons for the removals, unlike moving The Flying Eagles hundreds of miles south to make room for a stupid basketball game... er, I mean "Italian Job's entrance".

[Outdoor Man]

i would love to see google-earth pics from years past.

as a side note, water surrounding rides wouldn't do a thing for the mid-july temperature.... or June for that matter.

[Timbo1]

Thank you all for your comments, I love the idea of searching for missing parts and pieces of Kings Island past. I have run across many posts regarding where things have gone after KI used them. Do any of you have other cool details of interest, the cobra cars in hiding at Flight of Fear and the google earth shots of track laying in the grass near some buildings on the north east side of park. Not sure what this does for me but like the crazy details. Thanks again all

[AZ Kinda Guy]

While I mourn the loss of these things as well, these were good reasons for the removals, unlike moving The Flying Eagles hundreds of miles south to make room for a stupid basketball game... er, I mean "Italian Job's entrance".

Don't forget about the tacky cornhole game that made an appearance as well.

[d-lo775]

While I mourn the loss of these things as well, these were good reasons for the removals, unlike moving The Flying Eagles hundreds of miles south to make room for a stupid basketball game... er, I mean "Italian Job's entrance".

Don't quite see how a game that can produce $5 every 40 seconds (and probably nets the biggest profit of any game in the park) can be considered "stupid" from a business standpoint. If you were in charge of finances, would you rather have something that makes money for the park or something that costs the park money to operate?

[Browntggrr]

So example SOB do the Texas giant treatment on it for about 15 million since your only spending 5 mill on WindSeeker.

If another incident, even if it's not a park/ design issue (i.e. pre-existing medical condition, some moron looking for a payday claiming an injury etc.), would absolutely kill the "rehab" effort thus the ROI would be totally lost and the park would suffer another black eye in terms of safety.

TG, at one time, was considered one of the better wood coasters. The same cannot be said for SoB (although some will vehemently disagree with me).

Lastly before I go, why take away all the water that used to surround rides like The Beast and such. Water can help reduce the temperature in the park during those hot summer days, shallow flowing and recirculating water would also look nice. Thanks for the time. Lets hear your take. Thanks

As was mentioned, the bugs caused from the stagnant water were terrible as was the smell from all the garbage people would throw in the water.

While I mourn the loss of these things as well, these were good reasons for the removals, unlike moving The Flying Eagles hundreds of miles south to make room for a stupid basketball game... er, I mean "Italian Job's entrance".

Don't quite see how a game that can produce $5 every 40 seconds (and probably nets the biggest profit of any game in the park) can be considered "stupid" from a business standpoint. If you were in charge of finances, would you rather have something that makes money for the park or something that costs the park money to operate?

Disney, for instance, does not have the carnival-type games- and the park is much better off for it.

So to answer your question: I would rather have something that costs money to operate as I paid money to enjoy the rides.

[Gordon Bombay]

inferior Japanese steel

haha, this was posted on Dec. 8th, I was about to crack up if it was posted on Dec. 7th.

[The Interpreter]

More things have happened on December 7 than even that...but it is good to remember.

Never forget...those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

[benred23]

So example SOB do the Texas giant treatment on it for about 15 million since your only spending 5 mill on WindSeeker.

If another incident, even if it's not a park/ design issue (i.e. pre-existing medical condition, some moron looking for a payday claiming an injury etc.), would absolutely kill the "rehab" effort thus the ROI would be totally lost and the park would suffer another black eye in terms of safety.

TG, at one time, was considered one of the better wood coasters. The same cannot be said for SoB (although some will vehemently disagree with me).

Lastly before I go, why take away all the water that used to surround rides like The Beast and such. Water can help reduce the temperature in the park during those hot summer days, shallow flowing and recirculating water would also look nice. Thanks for the time. Lets hear your take. Thanks

As was mentioned, the bugs caused from the stagnant water were terrible as was the smell from all the garbage people would throw in the water.

While I mourn the loss of these things as well, these were good reasons for the removals, unlike moving The Flying Eagles hundreds of miles south to make room for a stupid basketball game... er, I mean "Italian Job's entrance".

Don't quite see how a game that can produce $5 every 40 seconds (and probably nets the biggest profit of any game in the park) can be considered "stupid" from a business standpoint. If you were in charge of finances, would you rather have something that makes money for the park or something that costs the park money to operate?

Disney, for instance, does not have the carnival-type games- and the park is much better off for it.

So to answer your question: I would rather have something that costs money to operate as I paid money to enjoy the rides.

Totally agree with you on the Disney Point. I noticed there were no Midway games or anything and I Actually enjoyed it! I Do however, Disagree with you on The Beasts water. Stagnent water, like a Pond, is a Bad idea. But as the person said, Shallow, RECIRCULATING water would be an Awesome addition. Or should I say, Re-addition to The Beast area..

[Thrill_Biscuit]

i would love to see google-earth pics from years past.

as a side note, water surrounding rides wouldn't do a thing for the mid-july temperature.... or June for that matter.

You can, to a limited degree. If you have the latest version of Earth, click on the little clock icon at the top of the view screen, and there will appear a sort of slide bar that has some dates along it, going back, I think, to about 1994. Set your desired view angle, and then 'slide' all the way back (the image is grayscale, and only detailed to about 3'/px), but then you can just click back and forth between 1994 and 2010, and watch how SOB appears/disappears, Tiques becomes BLSC, Keelboat Canal becomes Ferris Wheel (just kidding: Crypt) / DB, etc.

You can have fun with Lesourdsville/Americana, too. Watch the lake through the years. Neat stuff, this technology!

[d-lo775]

Disney, for instance, does not have the carnival-type games- and the park is much better off for it.

So to answer your question: I would rather have something that costs money to operate as I paid money to enjoy the rides.

Ummmmm......how did that answer my question? My question was if you were in charge of finances at the park would you rather make money or spend money? Not as an enthusiast, would you rather the park spend money or make money?

Disney may be a better park for you, not everyone. I have a friend who has won a Jet Ski, a luxury suite for a Caviler game, VIP tickets for 4 to Cedar Point, an autograph Kobe Bryant basketball, an i Pad, several PS3 consoles, i Pods, i Pod touches, digital cameras, electric guitars and at least a few hundred NBA/NFL jerseys within the last two years playing these carnival-type games all across the country. So, I seriously doubt he would say that Disney is better off for it. I know I wouldn't say that because I'd rather pay a lower admission price and have the choice to skip the games, instead of paying a higher price to enter the park because they don't make the extra cash elsewhere to make up for it.

I guess it's like Eddie Murphy said during his comedy act back in the mid 80's. "The moonwalk is the dumbest dance ever. I can't do the moonwalk, so that's why I say its the dumbest dance ever". There is absolutely no reason to dislike something just because you lack the skills to succeed at them. Don't blame the games for your lack of enjoyment....blame the player.

[Blackie]

One of the rides that I miss the most is Kenton's Keel Boat Water Canal. It was the best water ride in the park in my opinion. I'm not sure why this was removed.

From what source did you find that metal fatigue was the reason that King Cobra was removed? I don't buy it. If that was the problem, why would PKI keep it in storage for more than four years. Spare parts for Shockwave isn't a good answer as KC layed in the PKI boneyard until late 2006. I heard from a reliable source many years ago that Paramount removed it because they had a buyer lined up that was willing to pay $1,000,000.00 for it. The buyer backed out due to the poor condition that it was in. It was most likely the metal fatigue that was mentioned.

I miss the flying eagles as well.

[Browntggrr]

If you were in charge of finances, would you rather have something that makes money for the park or something that costs the park money to operate?

So to answer your question: I would rather have something that costs money to operate as I paid money to enjoy the rides.

.....how did that answer my question? My question was if you were in charge of finances at the park would you rather make money or spend money? Not as an enthusiast, would you rather the park spend money or make money?

You gave two choices, and I took the second choice.

If you don't like the answer, you really shouldn't give choices.

Disney may be a better park for you, not everyone.

Where did I ever mention Disney was a better park?

Guests spend money to enter the park and enjoy the rides. If rides are continuously removed for these games, the park has less to offer.

Only a fool would spend money to enter the park, then spend more money just to show off "skills" and not enjoy the rides offered. Kudos to your friend and his success. The story sounds like a Hallmark made-for-TV movie.

KI was made popular not by the carnival-type games you and your friend have the obvious skill for, but for the rides and attractions it provides. If KI were to remove all the rides for the carnival games you covet, I really don't see how it would be a draw for people to enjoy.

And from a financial standpoint, that would be stupid.

[Browntggrr]

Totally agree with you on the Disney Point. I noticed there were no Midway games or anything and I Actually enjoyed it! I Do however, Disagree with you on The Beasts water. Stagnent water, like a Pond, is a Bad idea. But as the person said, Shallow, RECIRCULATING water would be an Awesome addition. Or should I say, Re-addition to The Beast area..

There were numerous attempts to keep the water circulating, but due to the constant garbage, the pumps were always clogged.

[McSalsa]

-King Cobra was removed due to metal fatigue in its supports. My understanding is that lower grade steel was used for these and as a result they did not hold up over the years as expected.

So, its sister rides, such as Shockwave and Skyrider were made of better steel, and thus why they are still around? Just asking. If so, interesting...

[CoastersRZ]

Standards change over time. Just like building codes (or the Americans with Disabilities Act) change. In fact, there are new ADA design guidelines (from 2010). Compliance is required for all buildings taking occupancy as of March 2012. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, there was no ADA guidelines. Standards have changed. Some bathrooms that used to be accessible under old ADA guidelines may not necessarily be so under current guidelines. The same thing applies to steel and manufacturing. What is standard at the time, may not be the standards two or even three years down the road. And standards are different from country to country (or even state to state).

[PKIDelirium]

Shockwave and Skyrider were made from American steel rather than Japanese steel, I believe. Japanese steel is fine now, but at the time, it was sub-standard by comparison to US steel.

[Blackie]

I'm having trouble finding a factual source on why King Cobra was removed. If it was removed because of metal fatigue, why would it lay in storage for more than four years? It wasn't removed from the park until Cedar Fair took control. If it was considered a total loss, Paramount would have sent the trains to King's Dominion.

One of my closest friends uncle was a maintenance tech for KI back then. His version of the story was that Paramount lined up a buyer for KC that was willing to pay $1M for it. The deal went south because the buyer wasn't happy with its condition. I was told that the metal fatigue was not severe enough to warrant its removal, but bad enough to make it a lousy investment. I remember a guest asking the employee manning the elevator in the Eiffel Tower why King Cobra was removed. His response; "They are selling it to raise money for a new attraction."

Two of the other rides that I miss are the Antique Cars & the speed slides that were replaced by Coolangatta Racers.

Does anyone else notice that most of the rides we miss the most were removed by Paramount. I don't think that we gained much more than we lost under Paramount, considering how long they operated the park.

[The Interpreter]

One must remember that decisions are made in a contemporaneous way, given the facts available at the time. It is quite possible to deduce reasons for decisions that make a lot of sense now but weren't even considered at the time. Years from now, people will be analyzing the reasons they did what they did to Son of Beast back in what will then be the day. Some of them will be right, some will not be. Sources have reasons not to talk, others have reasons to...and some 'facts' are, others are colored by peoples' memories, wishes and misconceptions.

From what I know, and I know a bit more than many about this particular matter, what you have stated is correct, and not at all in internal conflict...remember that King Cobra was painted very shortly before it became standing but not operating; not at all unlike how'd you paint the interior and put in new carpet before selling a house. And the buyer did back out, based on the coaster's condition. Time passed between the removal decision and the failed sale. Time that affected the coaster and time would have passed had it even still been operating. Saying it would still be operating had that removal not occurred is a stretch. King Cobra was a prototype, not constructed in the same way as its successors. More than that I cannot (and will not) say. Not even now. And certainly not here.

[bkroz]

Does anyone else notice that most of the rides we miss the most were removed by Paramount. I don't think that we gained much more than we lost under Paramount, considering how long they operated the park.

Which, in some ways, is the nature of The Beast - the park was "Kings Island" for a few decades. Things were removed and added during those years, too. But "Paramount's Kings Island" (which, make no mistake, was actually owned by an entirely different entity than the one who owned Paramount Pictures) came in between. As of today, it's the middle age - the one where the most growth and expansion occurred. Some is for better, some is for worse. But don't forget that without "Paramount's Kings Island," we would not have (or have had) Drop Zone, FACE/OFF, Son of Beast (love it or hate it now, it was an important milestone in the park and in the industry), Tomb Raider: The Ride, Flight of Fear, The Italian Job, Scooby Doo, Boo Blasters, as well as many internal improvements, like our season pass system.

So yes, Paramount removed many things, and added many more. Perhaps to some, the costs outweigh the benefits. That's all opinion. But of three things I feel very certain: the park would have changed drastically regardless of who the "second owner" was; Kings Island would be a very different park today if it weren't for Paramount's interest; the park truly couldn't have withstood another year of it's prior owner before Paramount anyway.