Starting to Decode 2014

[TheCrypt]

The evidence against a giga coaster is that the footers that are already poured are not spaced out far enough to support a 300ft lift hill. Unless its a very steep incline..

This can't even be considered evidence at all.

[King Cobra]

Is it true that Cedar Point applied for a Gatekeeper trademark around the same time as its announcement? If so, why would Cedar Fair trademark Banshee for this ride several months before any announcement?

[chickenbowl]

There's more evidence against it than that.

Then enlighten me of great LordSkippy. Because I'm still convinced this will be a B&M Giga.

[secondson]

I thought the whole B&M Giga hypothesis was debunked a good two hundred pages ago.

What's the evidence against a B&M Giga? Based on the footers, it's already been 100% confirmed to be a B&M, Oumit said that there wouldn't be any new Wing Riders this year. So that leaves with only a few options of coaster types. And I see it MUCH more likely to be a Giga vs an Invert.

There's more evidence against it than that.

Then enlighten me of great LordSkippy. Because I'm still convinced this will be a B&M Giga.

Since you're convinced it will be a B&M Giga, share with us the evidence which convinces you. Have you read through every page of this thread? Those of us who have been here for a while have. If you read each post, you will understand why we believe it will not be a giga.

[Adventuro]

I really just don't think anyone knows either way, there isn't really evidence yet

[LordSkippy]

"Norm Pirtovshek, vice president and general manager of Canada's Wonderland, wanted another B&M. As he tells it, when the project was presented to the firm, B&M turned it down. "Walter said, 'No, we won't go 300 feet,'" reports Pirtovshek. But he didn't give up. As the project continued to develop, Pirtovshek persevered: "Look, Walter. If you won't go 300 feet, you're going to lose this contract." Then, Walter told the general manager, "I owe you one." As it turned out, Canada's Wonderland had originally approached B&M for an inverted coaster in the mid-90s. Since Cedar Point - which at the time was not in the same park chain - has installed Raptor, an exclusivity clause with B&M prohibited a competitor within a certain distance from having a B&M inverted coaster. Pirtovshek says that because of this past situation, Walter told him, "I'll do it. I'll do the 300 feet."

(Underlined for emphasis)

(Source: "B&M Strikes the 300 Foot Barrier With Leviathan" by Tim Baldwin, RollerCoaster!: The Official Magazine of the American Coaster Enthusiasts issue # 124)

So unless B&M also owes Kings Island a favor (which they don't) or has suddenly lost their aversion to gigas, it's not a giga no matter how much KI would benefir from one.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

[secondson]

The reason(s) why those of us in the invert camp believe as we do is based on the positioning of the footers for the station, transfer track, and storage shed - along with the parallel double footers immediately adjacent to that area. I'll have to go back through the pages to find the post which illustrates it.

[chickenbowl]

I thought the whole B&M Giga hypothesis was debunked a good two hundred pages ago.

What's the evidence against a B&M Giga? Based on the footers, it's already been 100% confirmed to be a B&M, Oumit said that there wouldn't be any new Wing Riders this year. So that leaves with only a few options of coaster types. And I see it MUCH more likely to be a Giga vs an Invert.

There's more evidence against it than that.

Then enlighten me of great LordSkippy. Because I'm still convinced this will be a B&M Giga.

Since you're convinced it will be a B&M Giga, share with us the evidence which convinces you. Have you read through every page of this thread? Those of us who have been here for a while have. If you read each post, you will understand why we believe it will not be a giga.

My evidence is history. I have said it before, this is 100% a B&M, which leaves us with a few options for coasters.

Wing Rider- I could easily see it being this, but with what Ouimet said, I'm doubtful.

Invert- The last new Invert made in the US was in 2006, they're not gimmicky enough anymore for parks to build them IMO. I really DOUBT it would be this. The park already has Flight Deck, the kiddie SLC, and Invertigo.

Stand Up- ...No.

Floorless- Same reason as an Invert, I doubt it.

Dive- I'd like this, but there's been no history of CF (or any non busch park) looking to buy Dive Coasters.

Flyer- Not with Firehawk already there.

Giga- Now I would have doubted it 2 years ago, but look at CW. This to me is the most likely option. It's VERY marketable, and would make sense based on what I've seen so far.

Now explain to me this un-deniable evidence against it. I'm open to any change in my opinion (cause I'd much prefer anything else). I'm just sad that there's no way thius will be an Intamin, because a Giga, IMO, is NOT what KI needs now.

[dwitb]

My evidence is history. I have said it before, this is 100% a B&M, which leaves us with a few options for coasters.

Wing Rider- I could easily see it being this, but with what Ouimet said, I'm doubtful.

Invert- The last new Invert made in the US was in 2006, they're not gimmicky enough anymore for parks to build them IMO. I really DOUBT it would be this. The park already has Flight Deck, the kiddie SLC, and Invertigo.

Stand Up- ...No.

Floorless- Same reason as an Invert, I doubt it.

Dive- I'd like this, but there's been no history of CF (or any non busch park) looking to buy Dive Coasters.

Flyer- Not with Firehawk already there.

Giga- Now I would have doubted it 2 years ago, but look at CW. This to me is the most likely option. It's VERY marketable, and would make sense based on what I've seen so far.

Now explain to me this un-deniable evidence against it. I'm open to any change in my opinion (cause I'd much prefer anything else). I'm just sad that there's no way thius will be an Intamin, because a Giga, IMO, is NOT what KI needs now.

In your opinion, what does KI need?

[TheBEASTunchained]

...So....About the 2 large holes being dug.....Are they for large footers like one seen on the bottom of Leviathan's drop or are they the start of a tunnel?....Any guesses?...

[Jayblazer]

All three North American Giga coasters are within 91/2 hours drive from Kings Island which makes them very accessible to people in this region who are looking for that. And I can ride that all with my platinum pass. You know what I don't have access to? A 4D coaster, that's what Cedar Fair needs that's what Kings Island needs!

[chickenbowl]

Sorry for coming across hostile in any of my posts, I'm just trying to catch up. I don't see how B&M wouldn't do a Giga again now that they've done it. I'd like to see how the footers point to an Invert like you said!

^^^KI would greater benefit from an Intamin Giga (Which is vastly different than a B&M Giga) or really anything else from Intamin. I would also prefer a (preferably intense) B&M Invert over a B&M Giga as well.

[intaminallday]

Why do people keep claiming this is the station and this is the transfer track and this is the storage shed? Im tired of hearing that no one know what direction the coaster is going no one knows where the transfer track is going so stop assuming yes it most likely is but still. Stop judging the spacing and size of footers unless you are on the construction site witha ruler. Not being mean but thats all im reading.

[secondson]

I thought the whole B&M Giga hypothesis was debunked a good two hundred pages ago.

What's the evidence against a B&M Giga? Based on the footers, it's already been 100% confirmed to be a B&M, Oumit said that there wouldn't be any new Wing Riders this year. So that leaves with only a few options of coaster types. And I see it MUCH more likely to be a Giga vs an Invert.

There's more evidence against it than that.

Then enlighten me of great LordSkippy. Because I'm still convinced this will be a B&M Giga.

Since you're convinced it will be a B&M Giga, share with us the evidence which convinces you. Have you read through every page of this thread? Those of us who have been here for a while have. If you read each post, you will understand why we believe it will not be a giga.

My evidence is history. I have said it before, this is 100% a B&M, which leaves us with a few options for coasters.

Wing Rider- I could easily see it being this, but with what Ouimet said, I'm doubtful.

Invert- The last new Invert made in the US was in 2006, they're not gimmicky enough anymore for parks to build them IMO. I really DOUBT it would be this. The park already has Flight Deck, the kiddie SLC, and Invertigo.

Stand Up- ...No.

Floorless- Same reason as an Invert, I doubt it.

Dive- I'd like this, but there's been no history of CF (or any non busch park) looking to buy Dive Coasters.

Flyer- Not with Firehawk already there.

Giga- Now I would have doubted it 2 years ago, but look at CW. This to me is the most likely option. It's VERY marketable, and would make sense based on what I've seen so far.

Now explain to me this un-deniable evidence against it. I'm open to any change in my opinion (cause I'd much prefer anything else). I'm just sad that there's no way thius will be an Intamin, because a Giga, IMO, is NOT what KI needs now.

Your "evidence" is nothing more than speculation. However, based on the pattern of footers, many of us have dismissed it as a giga. I don't want a giga either, so I'm sure we're in agreement on that point.

Why do people keep claiming this is the station and this is the transfer track and this is the storage shed? Im tired of hearing that no one know what direction the coaster is going no one knows where the transfer track is going so stop assuming yes it most likely is but still. Stop judging the spacing and size of footers unless you are on the construction site witha ruler. Not being mean but thats all im reading.

If you give me time, I'll go back through the posts and find the relevant ones which explain our position, then I'll post a link so you guys can read them.

[fryoj]

I thought the whole B&M Giga hypothesis was debunked a good two hundred pages ago.

What's the evidence against a B&M Giga? Based on the footers, it's already been 100% confirmed to be a B&M, Oumit said that there wouldn't be any new Wing Riders this year. So that leaves with only a few options of coaster types. And I see it MUCH more likely to be a Giga vs an Invert.

There's more evidence against it than that.

Then enlighten me of great LordSkippy. Because I'm still convinced this will be a B&M Giga.

Since you're convinced it will be a B&M Giga, share with us the evidence which convinces you. Have you read through every page of this thread? Those of us who have been here for a while have. If you read each post, you will understand why we believe it will not be a giga.

My evidence is history. I have said it before, this is 100% a B&M, which leaves us with a few options for coasters.

Wing Rider- I could easily see it being this, but with what Ouimet said, I'm doubtful.

Invert- The last new Invert made in the US was in 2006, they're not gimmicky enough anymore for parks to build them IMO. I really DOUBT it would be this. The park already has Flight Deck, the kiddie SLC, and Invertigo.

Stand Up- ...No.

Floorless- Same reason as an Invert, I doubt it.

Dive- I'd like this, but there's been no history of CF (or any non busch park) looking to buy Dive Coasters.

Flyer- Not with Firehawk already there.

Giga- Now I would have doubted it 2 years ago, but look at CW. This to me is the most likely option. It's VERY marketable, and would make sense based on what I've seen so far.

Now explain to me this un-deniable evidence against it. I'm open to any change in my opinion (cause I'd much prefer anything else). I'm just sad that there's no way thius will be an Intamin, because a Giga, IMO, is NOT what KI needs now.

Look at the double row of footers that run through the station area. Now go find any giga, hyper, wing, stand up, ANY B&M that's not an invert or flyer that has double footers spaced like that in the station/brake run area. That's your undeniable evidence.

[intaminallday]

I thought the whole B&M Giga hypothesis was debunked a good two hundred pages ago.

What's the evidence against a B&M Giga? Based on the footers, it's already been 100% confirmed to be a B&M, Oumit said that there wouldn't be any new Wing Riders this year. So that leaves with only a few options of coaster types. And I see it MUCH more likely to be a Giga vs an Invert.

There's more evidence against it than that.

Then enlighten me of great LordSkippy. Because I'm still convinced this will be a B&M Giga.

Since you're convinced it will be a B&M Giga, share with us the evidence which convinces you. Have you read through every page of this thread? Those of us who have been here for a while have. If you read each post, you will understand why we believe it will not be a giga.

My evidence is history. I have said it before, this is 100% a B&M, which leaves us with a few options for coasters.Wing Rider- I could easily see it being this, but with what Ouimet said, I'm doubtful.Invert- The last new Invert made in the US was in 2006, they're not gimmicky enough anymore for parks to build them IMO. I really DOUBT it would be this. The park already has Flight Deck, the kiddie SLC, and Invertigo.Stand Up- ...No.Floorless- Same reason as an Invert, I doubt it.Dive- I'd like this, but there's been no history of CF (or any non busch park) looking to buy Dive Coasters.Flyer- Not with Firehawk already there.Giga- Now I would have doubted it 2 years ago, but look at CW. This to me is the most likely option. It's VERY marketable, and would make sense based on what I've seen so far. Now explain to me this un-deniable evidence against it. I'm open to any change in my opinion (cause I'd much prefer anything else). I'm just sad that there's no way thius will be an Intamin, because a Giga, IMO, is NOT what KI needs now.

Look at the double row of footers that run through the station area. Now go find any giga, hyper, wing, stand up, ANY B&M that's not an invert or flyer that has double footers spaced like that in the station/brake run area. That's your undeniable evidence.

there is a station built since when? All i see are footers?

[silver2005]

Here's thing with the double footers. This picture has been used before on this thread without problem (it was taken from Drop Tower, it's not mine, I don't condone taking pictures from rides without permission), but it illustrates it perfectly.

First, that truck fits between those pair of supports perfectly with enough room to spare on either side, which would easily fit a 4 across B&M inverted car. Double supports on B&M coasters above the tracks aren't nearly that wide on the final brakes.

Secondly, those footers (starting from the top left) in the 4x3 square are the shed footers. The nearest footers to the right of that are inches from the shed footers.

Here's Diamondback's for comparsion to illustrate how far the next footers over are for a sit down coaster, which are centered on the track above.

DB's footers for the shed are also 4 wide. However, the next nearest footers from the footers at the edge of the shed on DB (which supports the main course track) are a good 5-7 ft over.

Also, here are a few examples of Intamin brake run footers, and an example of why Intamin is completely ruled out at this point.

Millennium Force

Intimidator 305

Maverick

We've already established where the brake run and station are going to be. Look at how on Intamin brake runs, the supports are numerous as well as pretty close together. They probably have dozens of footers supporting the final brakes and station alone. It's also like that throughout the main layouts; you can probably make their layouts out on the footers alone.

[YoungStud]

Once b&m hit 300', they won't have an issue building another. That excuse is lame that they did wonderland a favor. B&m did not want 25million to walk out the door. It was time anyway. 12 years after going over 200'.

[intaminallday]

B&M wont stop something that they just created…(giga) to go back to build coasters that were popular in 06' . Doesnt make sense

[LordSkippy]

Once b&m hit 300', they won't have an issue building another. That excuse is lame that they did wonderland a favor. B&m did not want 25million to walk out the door. It was time anyway. 12 years after going over 200'.

B&M wont stop something that they just created…(giga) to go back to build coasters that were popular in 06' . Doesnt make sense

And you know this how?

[secondson]

Kudos to Silver2005 for helping to explain. I want to reiterate something that another member posted way back in the discussion (I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the member, but I give him the credit for saying it): Usually when a coaster train departs from the station, it does not pass through the transfer track or storage shed area on its way to the lifthill. If you consider the positioning of the footers, it's clear where the storage shed and transfer track will be. It's conceivably possible the station could lie on the other side of the storage shed, closer to the old SOB station, but that leaves you with an extremely sharp curve going into the final brake run after the parallel rectangular footers which have been built. That seems very unlikely. So the general consensus is that those parallel rectangular footers are at the base of the lift hill for an invert.

B&M wont stop something that they just created…(giga) to go back to build coasters that were popular in 06' . Doesnt make sense

So you're saying the only think B&M builds these days is a giga coaster? I'd be interesting in hearing B&M's reaction to your opinion. How do you explain the invert (OzIris) which was built the same year Leviathan was built? What about the 1 floorless coaster, and 3 wing coasters that have been built, or are in the process of being built, in the past year? A coaster manufacturer builds what the customer orders. It doesn't abandon all former coaster types because it has now started building a new type.

Also, it has been said already by several other people....the predominant reason an invert hasn't been built in the U.S. in recent years is because pretty much all major parks already have one, and have had one for quite a while. Kings Island doesn't have a full-circuit invert, which is something it really needs more than a giga coaster right now.

[intaminallday]

Once b&m hit 300', they won't have an issue building another. That excuse is lame that they did wonderland a favor. B&m did not want 25million to walk out the door. It was time anyway. 12 years after going over 200'.

B&M wont stop something that they just created…(giga) to go back to build coasters that were popular in 06' . Doesnt make sense

And you know this how?

The same way you know where that station, storage shed, and transfer track are for sure

[dwitb]

I want a giga, and want a giga bad. But I have been looking for something to prove our new coaster will be an invert and here's what I found.

This is Alpengeist's drop at BGW:

Notice the large square support? It's consistent with the square supports we see at KI's construction site.

Here is Alpengeist's brake run. Again, consistency with our construction site:

Although I haven't been able to find any triangular supports on any B&M invert, yet (and they are aged), everything else seems to point toward a B&M invert.

[silver2005]

B&M wont stop something that they just created…(giga) to go back to build coasters that were popular in 06' . Doesnt make sense

B&M builds whatever Kings Island wants. Just because they built a giga somewhere doesn't automatically mean that KI's will be a giga.

And to your remarks on the last invert being built in '06, there have been a few built in the last few years, heck, OzIris was new this year. Also realize most US parks by 2006 already had a B&M or Vekoma inverted coaster. Kings Island does not. Also, a B&M inverted coaster rides very differently from Invertigo, Flight Deck and Firehawk, not to mention it'd be a nice line chewer, something Kings Island needs, particularly in Action Zone where most ride lines can get pretty long.

[YoungStud]

Youngstud has an idea.

If unfortunately we are getting a b&m. I think it will be a 4D. B&M has been working on a 4D design for some time now. The biggest problem X(now X2) had was stress on the trains. B&M has built around a half dozen wing coasters, that shows that their wide trains run well and has no stress on them like X did.

It would make sense because CF does not have a 4D and there are only two 4d's in america. X2 and the intamin zac spin are both on the west coast.

Going by what mr. ouimett said about no Wing Coasters in a CF park, he did not say it would not be similar....

GAME OVER

[intaminallday]

B&M wont stop something that they just created…(giga) to go back to build coasters that were popular in 06' . Doesnt make sense

B&M builds whatever Kings Island wants. Just because they built a giga somewhere doesn't automatically mean that KI's will be a giga. And to your remarks on the last invert being built in '06, there have been a few built in the last few years, heck, OzIris was new this year. Also realize most US parks by 2006 already had a B&M or Vekoma inverted coaster. Kings Island does not. Also, a B&M inverted coaster rides very differently from Invertigo, Flight Deck and Firehawk, not to mention it'd be a nice line chewer, something Kings Island needs, particularly in Action Zone where most ride lines can get pretty long.

Just because ki lacks an invert doesnt mean they want/need an invert

[TheCrypt]

Too many people on this board are biased in opinion when you talk about the age-old B&M vs Intamin debate. Intaminallday, judging by your username, I can tell you're thinking about what you want, not what the park needs. The park does need an invert, in my eyes at least. We need a good, solid inverting coaster with a great capacity, and an invert is one of the best ways to go. You talk about the designs being "outdated" and "gimmicky," but you fail to explain why every model continues to draw huge crowds. Why does Raptor have one of the longest lines throughout the day at Cedar Point? Why is Alpengeist so loved by Busch Gardens fans?

[dwitb]

Too many people on this board are biased in opinion when you talk about the age-old B&M vs Intamin debate. Intaminallday, judging by your username, I can tell you're thinking about what you want, not what the park needs. The park does need an invert, in my eyes at least. We need a good, solid inverting coaster with a great capacity, and an invert is one of the best ways to go. You talk about the designs being "outdated" and "gimmicky," but you fail to explain why every model continues to draw huge crowds. Why does Raptor have one of the longest lines throughout the day at Cedar Point? Why is Alpengeist so loved by Busch Gardens fans?

I was biased, too. Now, I've opened my mind and I'm seeing something totally different.

[secondson]

Once b&m hit 300', they won't have an issue building another. That excuse is lame that they did wonderland a favor. B&m did not want 25million to walk out the door. It was time anyway. 12 years after going over 200'.

B&M wont stop something that they just created…(giga) to go back to build coasters that were popular in 06' . Doesnt make sense

And you know this how?

The same way you know where that station, storage shed, and transfer track are for sure

How else do you explain the location of the grid pattern of footers in the construction zone?

B&M wont stop something that they just created…(giga) to go back to build coasters that were popular in 06' . Doesnt make sense

B&M builds whatever Kings Island wants. Just because they built a giga somewhere doesn't automatically mean that KI's will be a giga. And to your remarks on the last invert being built in '06, there have been a few built in the last few years, heck, OzIris was new this year. Also realize most US parks by 2006 already had a B&M or Vekoma inverted coaster. Kings Island does not. Also, a B&M inverted coaster rides very differently from Invertigo, Flight Deck and Firehawk, not to mention it'd be a nice line chewer, something Kings Island needs, particularly in Action Zone where most ride lines can get pretty long.

Just because ki lacks an invert doesnt mean they want/need an invert

I think if you were to take a poll of the average KI visitor, and ask them if they wanted a giga or an invert, they'd probably say they wanted an invert. Why? Because in their minds, a giga is simply a larger version of what we already have in Diamondback. On the other hand, aside from Valleyfair, Kings Island is one of the only major parks in the CF chain which doesn't have a coaster with a zero-G or Immelman/dive loop. I think KI's largest demographic would rather have something unique right now instead of a larger version of something they got 4 years ago.

[RingMaster]

B&M wont stop something that they just created…(giga) to go back to build coasters that were popular in 06' . Doesnt make sense

B&M builds whatever Kings Island wants. Just because they built a giga somewhere doesn't automatically mean that KI's will be a giga. And to your remarks on the last invert being built in '06, there have been a few built in the last few years, heck, OzIris was new this year. Also realize most US parks by 2006 already had a B&M or Vekoma inverted coaster. Kings Island does not. Also, a B&M inverted coaster rides very differently from Invertigo, Flight Deck and Firehawk, not to mention it'd be a nice line chewer, something Kings Island needs, particularly in Action Zone where most ride lines can get pretty long.

Just because ki lacks a[ giga] doesnt mean they want/need a[ giga]

You kinda set yourself up there.

I also think you're quite adamant on remaining ignorant of the vast majority of coasters outside the US. Save for the lone B&M Giga. In CANADA.

Speaking of which, that Mitch Hawker poll from last year? The one someone touted as saying Intamin took most of the honors on the top 12 (and because no one apparently trusts the Golden Ticket Awards anymore)?

1. Expedition GeForce
2. Bizarro
3. New Texas Giant
4. Intimidator 305
5. Kawasemi
6. Shambhala
7. Skyrush
8. iSpeed
9. Katun (tied 9th)
10. Mega-Lite (tied 9th)
11. Maverick (tied 9th)
12. Nemesis

The ones in bold are American coasters. And to add further insult to injury, Skyrush and Shambhala debuted last year alongside Leviathan. Skyrush is 200 feet tall and was ranked 7th, Shambhala is 250 and was ranked 6th and Leviathan is 300 and was ranked 18th. Aside from the fact that B&M's premier giga ranked second to last in the top 20, the only other giga in the top 5 (Millie was ranked 14th) was beat out by two hyper coasters, 1st Place being in Germany. Also, Nemesis has been around since 1994 and has been in the top-tier list since this poll's inception.