Could Vekoma Trains work on Vortex?

[homestar92]

I have a random question that I was thinking of. I love my Vortex. And I mean LOVE it. I've ridden over 50 coasters, and it's my #1 overall, wood or steel. But a lot of my friends don't like riding it because they think it's rough (and refuse to believe that 5-1 alleviates any issues). Despite my love for all things Arrow, I See der Point, and was wondering if this is a problem that can be solved and bring new life to the ride. I think the new Vekoma trains (as seen on the Carolina Cobra) could solve this. The problems people cite always seem to be restraint-related. Having ridden the Carolina Cobra, I gotta say, those trains make a boomerang glass smooth, which is quite a feat. I know the trains are compatible, as the Carolina Cobra originally operated at Geauga Lake with trains identical to those seen today on Vortex and many other Arrow Loopers.

So basically, I want to know how you all feel about this, or about the idea of retrofitting rides with a new train style. It was done on Steel Dragon 2000, the Carolina Cobra, and probably many others. Why Not Vortex?

For those unfamiliar with these trains, they can be seen in action here:

*Photo originates from Theme Park Review

[SonofBaconator]

If it becomes a big pain issue, I could see it happening in the future, but the current trains seem fine.

[LordSkippy]

If I'm not mistaken, there was a rumor floating about that Vortex would get those Vekoma trains for its 25th anniversary season. Since Vortex's 25th has passed, it seems doubtful. I mean, there's really no reason for it that I can see; the current trains work fine, even if they are a bit cramped for some people (myself included.)

[homestar92]

*I will add that while I don't WANT any changes, if it got to a Point where our choices were this, or "Vortex's Revenge" (a la Kennywood's Steel Phantom/Phantom's Revenge), I'd prefer new trains.

[TheCrypt]

Steel Dragon's new trains are from B&M, not Vekoma.

[homestar92]

Steel Dragon's new trains are from B&M, not Vekoma.

I know that, I wasn't really referring specifically to a Vekoma retrofit, more to retrofitting trains in general. Probably should have been clearer, my bad.

Now I think about it, I guess Son of Beast could be added to that list, too.

[kblanken]

Legend at HW changed trains, and so did Hades in Wisconsin, and Voy...

[Creed Bratton]

*I will add that while I don't WANT any changes, if it got to a Point where our choices were this, or "Vortex's Revenge" (a la Kennywood's Steel Phantom/Phantom's Revenge), I'd prefer new trains.

Steel Phantom's trains are still Arrow trains, but have been retrofitted by Morgan which included the restraint change.

[homestar92]

*I will add that while I don't WANT any changes, if it got to a Point where our choices were this, or "Vortex's Revenge" (a la Kennywood's Steel Phantom/Phantom's Revenge), I'd prefer new trains.

Steel Phantom's trains are still Arrow trains, but have been retrofitted by Morgan which included the restraint change.

Again, I should have been clearer, I guess. With that, I was referring to the fact that I would prefer new trains over a complete track layout overhaul.

Though I don't much care for Phantom's new restraints. They just don't feel that secure for a skinny guy like me.

[TombRaiderFTW]

The new Vekoma trains are nice; they're fairly similar to Gatekeeper's restraints, although I don't recall my collarbones hurting with the Vekomas. The thing is, though, that they really don't do much to actually smooth out the ride. They've literally just removed any obstacles for your head to run into, but your head is still going to move around the way the ride would normally make it. I rode Sidewinder at Hersheypark in 2011 with the Vekoma train, and it was very uncomfortable just based on the ride itself. I didn't know the top of a loop could be a painful part of a ride, but there was a nasty snap up there on Sidewinder. In contrast, I rode Boomerang at SFStl this year, and its Arrow train was very comfortable. The ride wasn't perfect, but I'd say it was definitely one of the smoothest (if not the smoothest) shuttle coaster I've ever ridden.

Since a lot of complaints with Vortex seem to involve shorter riders' heads being pinballed between the restraints, I'm willing to bet it could be improved, but a lot of Vortex critiques could still be valid. A few transitions on that ride are so snappy that you'll just end up turning your head quickly instead of banging your head on the OTSR. I'm 5'11", so my head's above the "danger zone" of the restraint whether it's an Arrow train or a Vekoma one, and Vortex itself (with respect to VortexBFForever) is just uncomfortable to me in places. But that's just my $0.02!

[SonofBaconator]

If for some reason we got new trains, they should put the old school logo on the front of the trains.

[Cody]

I wanna see Vortex with this type of train(it was introduced on a boomerang layout coaster)

http://freizeitparkweb.de/cgi-bin/dcf/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&forum=DCForumID39&om=2691&omm=148&viewmode=

Only thing I would add is padding on the lapbars

http://rcdb.com/1093.htm?p=0

[homestar92]

I wanna see Vortex with this type of train(it was introduced on a boomerang layout coaster)

http://freizeitparkweb.de/cgi-bin/dcf/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&forum=DCForumID39&om=2691&omm=148&viewmode=

Only thing I would add is patting on the lapbars

The only issue with that is that Vortex NEEDS OTSRs. The forces on Vortex require some sort of stabilization of the upper body, and those restraints wouldn't do that. They work on a Boomerang, but think of that turn after the loops and just before the corkscrews. That turn, coupled with the slamming of the brakes, basically require shoulder restraints.

[Diamondback96]

Maybe if the brakes didn't almost stop you (IIRC), lap bars would be possible.

Maybe we should have Terpy weigh in though.

[Cody]

I wanna see Vortex with this type of train(it was introduced on a boomerang layout coaster)

http://freizeitparkweb.de/cgi-bin/dcf/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&forum=DCForumID39&om=2691&omm=148&viewmode=

Only thing I would add is patting on the lapbars

The only issue with that is that Vortex NEEDS OTSRs. The forces on Vortex require some sort of stabilization of the upper body, and those restraints wouldn't do that. They work on a Boomerang, but think of that turn after the loops and just before the corkscrews. That turn, coupled with the slamming of the brakes, basically require shoulder restraints.

Sorry that made ZERO sense.

1. What forces does Vortex induce that Boomerang doesn't?(aside from turning, see number 2)

2. The argument that you need OTSR for a train that is turning & braking is ridicules! Look at FoF/Diamondback/Racer/Beast/Adventure Express/Woodstock Express, they all induce some type of banked turn & brake(especially FOF & Diamondback those brakes are very strong and abrupt) and they all use lap bars. So the theory that you need an OTSR to control "upper body" for braking & turning is just silly.

These trains are possible on Vortex.

Also heres the POV of the boomerang coaster that currently uses the lapbar train

(notice at 2:04~ the train enter the station and the brakes are applied very abruptly, kind of like Vortex's) no OTSR needed there, so why would OTSR be neeeded for Vortex's brakes?

[homestar92]

For turning and braking of the normal variety, you wouldn't need OTSRs. For that particular turn, you do. I love Vortex, but that one particular element is about 15 different types of ridiculous. A Boomerang has no turns that sharp and quick, nor do they generally slam the brakes anywhere near as hard as Vortex does at that point. Keep in mind also that when those brakes are applied on Vortex, you literally JUST got out of a VERY sharp, VERY underbanked turn. Additionally, on a Boomerang, the brakes are applied while the train is travelling backwards. I'm sure that has an effect too, as when you come to a stop, your body will continue to move backward (into the seat) as opposed to forward into the restraint (or into nothing, if there were no OTSRs)

[Cody]

For turning and braking of the normal variety, you wouldn't need OTSRs. For that particular turn, you do. I love Vortex, but that one particular element is about 15 different types of ridiculous. A Boomerang has no turns that sharp and quick, nor do they generally slam the brakes anywhere near as hard as Vortex does at that point. Keep in mind also that when those brakes are applied on Vortex, you literally JUST got out of a VERY sharp, VERY underbanked turn. Additionally, on a Boomerang, the brakes are applied while the train is travelling backwards. I'm sure that has an effect too, as when you come to a stop, your body will continue to move backward (into the seat) as opposed to forward into the restraint (or into nothing, if there were no OTSRs)

I don't think you're understanding something here.

Vortex turn into the brakes is banked, and from the video it looks like the brakes are applied more harshly than the brakes before corkscrew. What are you talking about "15 different types" of ridiculous? I'm starting to loose faith in your so called "facts", in fact I'm just going to label them opinions. I'm pretty sure on a boomerang, there are vertical turns(half corkscrew into a half loop). You still failed to address several points that I'm asking. Take FoF for example, I'm pretty sure there were a few others who believed lap bars wouldn't work on such a ride and now look? All I'm saying is, it is possible for Vortex to receive a train with a lapbar/T-bar design. Also currently OTSR don't really keep my upper body "stabled" during the ride, your upper torso can have the same movement as it would on diamond back.

Maybe I should of changed my name to Fact Smasher or Opinion Smasher. LOL

There is actually an old thread somewhere here on the site, that bring up this very same subject about lapbars on Vortex, Im pretty sure a very knowledgeable person proved that these would work on Vortex. (wheres AZ Kinda Guy when you need him!)

[The Interpreter]

The Kings Island Vortex is in Ohio. The manufacturer's successor is still in business. It would appear S&S would have to at least not object to such a change. And that's assuming such a change is acceptable from a forces\physics\safety standpoint.

At least so far, no train change has occurred.

Terp, wording things with great care.

[thedevariouseffect]

Vekoma trains can work, as they use the same rail width, spine structure, and placement of brake fins. However, me being all nostalgic, the current trains are running fine albeit with a few flat spots on the wheels that need replaced, however, they are structurally sound and in good working order. Please don't bring Vekoma into an old arrow.

Leave the arrows alone!!!

[homestar92]

All I was doing was posing an idea. I don't desire a change either, simply wondering if a change could make it more enjoyable for the GP who are... less fond of Ron Toomer's design ideals than I am. I also agree that the new trains would only stop one of many complaints people have. And while I disagree about lap bars being usable on Vortex, I see where you're coming from and concede that we have a differing opinion on the matter. Either way, I just hope that for the foreseeable future, KI will do anything and everything necessary to keep Vortex going for years to come!

[thedevariouseffect]

Honestly though there is only so much you can do to make an arrow smooth. It's a hand built human assembled ride with trains that have wheels that are not spring loaded in constant contact with the track and over time develop flat spots and rough areas on both the wheel and track. The only thing you could do is to pull off each rail and replace it, however again, this to me kills the arrow entirely.

Honestly as long as they inspect the track, keep the trains running, keep everything from degrading, they're good to go and this stuff can practically last indefinately

[AZ Kinda Guy]

There is actually an old thread somewhere here on the site, that bring up this very same subject about lapbars on Vortex, Im pretty sure a very knowledgeable person proved that these would work on Vortex. (wheres AZ Kinda Guy when you need him!)

I'm not an engineer so I don't know.

[AZ Kinda Guy]

Honestly though there is only so much you can do to make an arrow smooth. It's a hand built human assembled ride with trains that have wheels that are not spring loaded in constant contact with the track and over time develop flat spots and rough areas on both the wheel and track.

The wheels on Vortex do not develop flat spots. Nor are there any "rough areas" on the track.

[stashua123]

I think Vortex is fine. Im a really tall guy for my age 6'0 and Vortex is just fine. I think the headbanging is exaggerated because when I ride I only get about 2 headbangs in the ride. But it could be different for other people.

[thedevariouseffect]

They can develop flat spots actually. This is why companies like B&M have the transfer table without rails to take the pressure off of the wheels and their assemblies and also allow for easier inspection.

Also there are areas of the track that do recieve more stress than others. For instance on corkscrew if you did a track walk, at the end of the brake run where the train jerks left, the guide wheel hits pretty hard there and you can see where it's been patched before that was discovered during off season NDT. I may have pictures of this on my facebook. That area on the track actually recieves alot more stress than you think, as that support holding that area of track had a small crack in it that was also discovered during NDT & was replaced during my season.

[AZ Kinda Guy]

They can develop flat spots actually. This is why companies like B&M have the transfer table without rails to take the pressure off of the wheels and their assemblies and also allow for easier inspection.

Also there are areas of the track that do recieve more stress than others. For instance on corkscrew if you did a track walk, at the end of the brake run where the train jerks left, the guide wheel hits pretty hard there and you can see where it's been patched before that was discovered during off season NDT. I may have pictures of this on my facebook. That area on the track actually recieves alot more stress than you think, as that support holding that area of track had a small crack in it that was also discovered during NDT & was replaced during my season.

The Vortex is not the Corkscrew. Also, being a ride op on a Arrow looper at CP does not make you an expert on the daily maintenance of a Arrow looper at KI.

[thedevariouseffect]

I've been in ride ops for more than corkscrew and involved in the rides alot more than you know of, and it's still another arrow product created just 11 years after corkscrew using the same manufacturer concepts and ideas, I would bet money even same maint. standards in regards to hours, off season NDT, ect.

Same goes for other rides too. An S&S space shot at any park in the world will be the same maint. standards and operation as any other...they're the same thing just very minimal differences...

Operating a ride and being in charge of it's every day operation and having a close relationship with maint. as you depend on them to make sure you can do your job safetly and keep people safe & also being an enthusiast, and for lack of better words, intrusive, you do get to be involved in it quite a bit. Hell I even got to help them replace a bad wheel one morning I got to the ride extra early to help knock out paperwork.

[AZ Kinda Guy]

Please refer to my previous post.

[SonofBaconator]

Currently,Vortex does not require Vekoma trains, end of story.

Next...

[thedevariouseffect]

Still puts me more in touch than an enthusiast. I've worked them, helped repair them, and been involved with an arrow looper more than practically everyone here...