Is Intamin coming back to Cedar Fair?

[SonofBaconator]

Personally I think that Maverick is the best intamin coaster ever manufactured- I love the speed and the twists and turns. I hope Mack is able to produce something of that intensity one day, a lot of their coasters have slow transitions as opposed to rapid ones that you see on Maverick.

[Maverick44]

I tend to agree. Can't wait till Copperhead is done. We will see then if Mack can make the jump. I also can't wait for the Potter coaster. We can see what Intamin has been up too. Also off topic but Infinity Falls looks amazing.

[SonofBaconator]

Mack coasters focus more on hangtime vs acceleration and speed. I personally don't think Cedar Fair is willing to bring back that level of intensity that Intamin has if reliability and the risk if repeat ridership is a factor. Look up El Toro Ryan's video on I-305 if you wanto see what I mean.

Here's something else to consider, the lack of intensity that you see on Mack rides might be what Cedar Fair is going for. Enthusiasts love intense rides but they make up a small portion of the chain's revenue. If they can get a ride that's still thrilling but is less intense then they'll be able to keep people riding. 

An an enthusiast I will always love the intenseness of Intamins like Maverick and Cheetah Hunt but from a business perspective I understand why they built a launched ride from Mack.

[coaster sally]

15 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

Mack coasters focus more on hangtime vs acceleration and speed. I personally don't think Cedar Fair is willing to bring back that level of intensity that Intamin has if reliability and the risk if repeat ridership is a factor. Look up El Toro Ryan's video on I-305 if you wanto see what I mean.

Here's something else to consider, the lack of intensity that you see on Mack rides might be what Cedar Fair is going for. Enthusiasts love intense rides but they make up a small portion of the chain's revenue. If they can get a ride that's still thrilling but is less intense then they'll be able to keep people riding. 

An an enthusiast I will always love the intenseness of Intamins like Maverick and Cheetah Hunt but from a business perspective I understand why they built a launched ride from Mack.

With all do respect Cheetah hunt is far from intense, it was built to have a smaller height requirement for younger guests and families to enjoy together.  Any manufacturer can build rides based on customer wants.

[SonofBaconator]

1 hour ago, coaster sally said:

With all do respect Cheetah hunt is far from intense, it was built to have a smaller height requirement for younger guests and families to enjoy together.  Any manufacturer can build rides based on customer wants.

I rode it back in 2012 and thought those launches were intense but that's subjective I guess

[disco2000]

43 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

I rode it back in 2012 and thought those launches were intense but that's subjective I guess

Memories can change or formulate different opinions in subsequent years as we experience different and new things.  Look at Beast or Vortex and peoples memories on how they got rougher over time or time length for example and then someone matches an old POV to a recent one of Beast showing the brakes, etc. have always been there. 

Vortex probably didn't get rougher, but we got older and bigger and rides like Diamondback were introduced that were smooth and thus made Vortex feel rougher...

And how old were you in 2012?  Age can make a difference on perception as well...

Speaking of subjective, I thought Copperhead Strike was more intense than Maverick.  It is probably mainly because it is a different ride experience and restraints.  Every parent that got off Copperhead strike were hugging their kids and thankful they didn't fall out of the ride.  Copperhead Strike with their restraints and emphasis on "upside down air" or hangtime can give the impression that you may fall out.  You don't get that feeling on Maverick, mainly because of the restraints and pacing.

[IndyGuy4KI]

36 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

You have to keep in mind that the rides people always moan and groan about were years ahead of their times.

That might be true, but It doesn't matter if they are a maintenance nightmare, they cost the park twice as much to operate, and your customers are irritated by their downtime. 

I understand the people who defend Intamin because a few of them are at the top of my favorite list when they are working.  Looking at the parks perspective, they are not going to want to add another maintenance nightmare into their lineup.

[coaster sally]

19 minutes ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

That might be true, but It doesn't matter if they are a maintenance nightmare, they cost the park twice as much to operate, and your customers are irritated by their downtime. 

I understand the people who defend Intamin because a few of them are at the top of my favorite list when they are working.  Looking at the parks perspective, they are not going to want to add another maintenance nightmare into their lineup.

With all do respect I feel parks would not be buying these new rides if reliabilty has not improved with other choices in the market?  Look at b&m their rides are not selling like hotcakes in the states since 2012 either like they were when parks were on spending sprees.

[SonofBaconator]

1 hour ago, coaster sally said:

With all do respect I feel parks would not be buying these new rides if reliabilty has not improved with other choices in the market?  Look at b&m their rides are not selling like hotcakes in the states since 2012 either like they were when parks were on spending sprees.

Well other manufacturers have come along since then. Years ago parks used to buy from Arrow, Morgan, CCI, & Dinn. Then you get a good influx of Premiers, B&Ms, Intamins. Now we got other players in the U.S. market like Vekoma, Premier, S&S, Mack, GCI, and RMC that are giving parks something different. B&M and Intamin don't build rides like 4d freespins, huge hybrids, spinners etc. Parks aren't really buying a lot from B&M anymore because for the most part they already got their fill. You'll definatly see more dives, wings, and maybe flyers because they're unique enough to satisfy clients. Almost every park has a hyper, invert, or some type of sitdown looper of some kind by B&M at this point. In Intamin's case, they're finding themselves competing with companies like Mack, RMC, Premier, S&S and now Vekoma. While they were absent in the US for a good decade, the companies I just mentioned came in and made a good name for themselves in the current coaster market. Its all about relevance and track record. If you have a bad track record, parks are gonna be hesitant to work with you again, even if you've improved your product. I'm sure Cedar Fair is looking at how the Intamins at BGW and Universal do before they even consider working with Intamin again which in my opinion is still a longshot.

[coaster sally]

32 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

Well other manufacturers have come along since then. Years ago parks used to buy from Arrow, Morgan, CCI, & Dinn. Then you get a good influx of Premiers, B&Ms, Intamins. Now we got other players in the U.S. market like Vekoma, Premier, S&S, Mack, GCI, and RMC that are giving parks something different. B&M and Intamin don't build rides like 4d freespins, huge hybrids, spinners etc. Parks aren't really buying a lot from B&M anymore because for the most part they already got their fill. You'll definatly see more dives, wings, and maybe flyers because they're unique enough to satisfy clients. Almost every park has a hyper, invert, or some type of sitdown looper of some kind by B&M at this point. In Intamin's case, they're finding themselves competing with companies like Mack, RMC, Premier, S&S and now Vekoma. While they were absent in the US for a good decade, the companies I just mentioned came in and made a good name for themselves in the current coaster market. Its all about relevance and track record. If you have a bad track record, parks are gonna be hesitant to work with you again, even if you've improved your product. I'm sure Cedar Fair is looking at how the Intamins anr BGW and Universal do before they even consider working with Intamin again which in my opinion is still a longshot.

Please elaborate on s&s.  They have had major failures with ring racer, gale force, extreme rusher, etc.  I have been on all the free spins, X2, powder keg, etc and they all go down for maintenance in all of my visits.  

[Benjamin22]

3 hours ago, coaster sally said:

 Intamin's Storm Runner up until this year has been running very consistently since 2004.  

Correct me if I’m wrong but it can’t even open this year due to not having a part..... Intamin accelerator coasters are not what comes to mind when I think of reliable rollercoasters.

[SonofBaconator]

15 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

Please elaborate on s&s.  They have had major failures with ring racer, gale force, extreme rusher, etc.  I have been on all the free spins and X2 and they all go down for maintenance in all of my visits.  

Their standard 4d freespins are an improvement over Intamin's Green Lantern model. Though any ride with free moving parts is gonna be a maintence nightmare, parks can keep the smaller Joker styled ones in check given their size. There's a reason why there hasn't been a giant freespin like X2 built in a while but the smaller ones are extremely popular. You can find one at almost every Six Flags park, there's a few popping up around the globe and in the US. Heck even Cedar Fair is joining the party with KD's new coaster. Parks, in my opinion, are more willing to take risks with smaller coasters so if they end up being down, its not going to kill the park. Intamin has reintroduced their shuttle invert coaster with its new track and it looks pretty cool. It'll of course have downtime but it doesn't take up a huge footprint and is a short ride so it won't do a lot of damage if it has to to down for maintence.

Wicked Twister shuts down and nobody panics. Millennium Force shuts down and everyone loses their minds.

[coaster sally]

10 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

Their standard 4d freespins are an improvement over Intamin's Green Lantern model. Though any ride with free moving parts is gonna be a maintence nightmare, parks can keep the smaller Joker styled ones in check given their size. There's a reason why there hasn't been a giant freespin like X2 built in a while but the smaller ones are extremely popular. You can find one at almost every Six Flags park, there's a few popping up around the globe and in the US. Heck even Cedar Fair is joining the party with KD's new coaster. Parks, in my opinion, are more willing to take risks with smaller coasters so if they end up being down, its not going to kill the park. Intamin has reintroduced their shuttle invert coaster with its new track and it looks pretty cool. It'll of course have downtime but it doesn't take up a huge footprint and is a short ride so it won't do a lot of damage if it has to to down for maintence.

Wicked Twister shuts down and nobody panics. Millennium Force shuts down and everyone loses their minds.

I just said I have been on most all s&s coasters in the states.  I am aware of the pros and cons.  I am interested in hearing about why their long list of failures is not a deterrent to parks such as extreme rusher, ring racer, gale force, etc.  I am not even mentioning hypersonic.  

[SonofBaconator]

11 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

I just said I have been on most all s&s coasters in the states.  I am aware of the pros and cons.  I am interested in hearing about why their long list of failures is not a deterrent to parks such as extreme rusher, ring racer, gale force, etc.  I am not even mentioning hypersonic.  

Call the parks up and ask them. All I can say is Cedar Fair experienced Intamin's failures 1st hand. They haven't really had any issues with S&S since Hypersonic was under Paramount ownership. Kinda the same logic behind CF working with Gerstlauer after the Smiler incident

[coaster sally]

18 minutes ago, Shawn Meyer said:

While I agree with your point about the demolition being so sudden, I respectively disagree that they don't have something planned in that area. I feel like they're next roller coaster is still in the planning and they know who they want to go with as far as next roller coaster manufacturer. Tearing out the footers now gives them the time to plan out the layout for their next roller coaster. I believe we'll see a ground up rmc in the former spot of Vortex. Just my opinion there. I also believe we won't see that new roller coaster until 2022-2023, due to the pandemic we're all in right now.

That would be fast for a non pandemic 

[coaster sally]

3 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

Call the parks up and ask them. All I can say is Cedar Fair experienced Intamin's failures 1st hand. They haven't really had any issues with S&S since Hypersonic was under Paramount ownership. Kinda the same logic behind CF working with Gerstlauer after the Smiler incident

Gerstlauer has not built a coaster that wouldn't operate like ring racer.  Also please do your research on the smiler accident.

[SonofBaconator]

33 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

Gerstlauer has not built a coaster that wouldn't operate like ring racer.  Also please do your research on the smiler accident.

Enlighten me on what I need to research

[silver2005]

Uh....CF recently purchased a Gerstlauer. 

Post-Smiler accident. 

https://rcdb.com/15413.htm

[coaster sally]

2 minutes ago, silver2005 said:

Uh....CF recently purchased a Gerstlauer. 

Post-Smiler accident. 

https://rcdb.com/15413.htm

i'm sorry, not understanding what you mean?  SOB stated they bought a gerstlauer after the smiling accident and I stated to research the "accident".  Also i stated that gerstlauer has not built a coaster that was a failure from the beginning like ring racer.

[silver2005]

^Some of the wording is confusing then, because it looks like you're lumping Gerstlauer with Intamin (which would be somewhat plausible but not quite equivalent). 

[coaster sally]

8 minutes ago, silver2005 said:

^Some of the wording is confusing then, because it looks like you're lumping Gerstlauer with Intamin (which would be somewhat plausible but not quite equivalent). 

Sorry.  SOB states that S&S is more reliable than Intamin.  I had been stating they have had epic failures even since 2012.  I was stating then that gerstlauer has never built an epic failure and that the smiler accident was alton towers fault not gerstlauer.

[silver2005]

^My only issue with Gerstlauer was them signing off on their wooden trains to be run on Son of Beast. 

[BeastForever]

I should clarify that I'm aware that S&S and some other manufacturers certainly run into their issues, and would agree that any concept more ambitious or groundbreaking is going to result in more problems on average than a concept that already is worked.

B&M and GCI avoid many issues simply by not trying out something untested unless they're fully confident it will work. Slowly, but surely, B&M warmed up to the idea of making 300ft+ coasters and launched coasters, and GCI it appears is following in RMC's footsteps of utilizing launches and inversions.

On 7/19/2020 at 12:34 PM, coaster sally said:

I am interested in hearing about why their long list of failures is not a deterrent to parks such as extreme rusher, ring racer, gale force, etc.  I am not even mentioning hypersonic.

So I guess the answer to that question could be that parks see S&S as the less objectionable choice. I'm aware that many of S&S's coasters are not exactly paragons of reliability either, but presumably the the Compressed Air Launch coasters are at least somewhat less problematic than Accelerator Coasters. Otherwise there would not have been 7 of them purchased since 2011 compared to 0 new Accelerator Coasters since 2010.

The S&S Freespins are heavy on maintenance issues too but presumably less so that Intamin Zacspin (and seem to get better reviews). There have been 10 Freespins built/purchased since 2015, compared to 0 new Zacspins since GL in 2011.

RMC's have their issues as well. But again, the "watch what they do" theory would have it that parks that want high-tech wooden coasters see RMC Topper Track as the more desirable choice to Intamin Plug n' Play, other wise there would have been at least one more of the latter built since 2008 (T Express), instead of four of the former since 2013 (Outlaw Run).

I can't claim to know all the motives, rationales, or reasons, to why parks have built what they do, but if we're going of the assumption that they're doing whats in their best interest, then one could conclude that the rivals to many of Intamin's products are more desirable from an overall value perspective factoring in operating/maintenance costs, reliability, etc.

[coaster sally]

2 minutes ago, BeastForever said:

I should clarify that I'm aware that S&S and some other manufacturers certainly run into their issues, and would agree that any concept more ambitious or groundbreaking is going to result in more problems on average than a concept that already is worked.

B&M and GCI avoid many issues simply by not trying out something untested unless they're fully confident it will work. Slowly, but surely, B&M warmed up to the idea of making 300ft+ coasters and launched coasters, and GCI it appears is following in RMC's footsteps of utilizing launches and inversions.

So I guess the answer to that question could be that parks see S&S as the less objectionable choice. I'm aware that many of S&S's coasters are not exactly paragons of reliability either, but presumably the the Compressed Air Launch coasters are at least somewhat less problematic than Accelerator Coasters. Otherwise there would not have been 7 of them purchased since 2011 compared to 0 new Accelerator Coasters since 2010.

The S&S Freespins are heavy on maintenance issues too but presumably less so that Intamin Zacspin (and seem to get better reviews). There have been 10 Freespins built/purchased since 2015, compared to 0 new Zacspins since GL in 2011.

RMC's have their issues as well. But again, the "watch what they do" theory would have it that parks that want high-tech wooden coasters see RMC Topper Track as the more desirable choice to Intamin Plug n' Play, other wise there would have been at least one more of the latter built since 2008 (T Express), instead of four of the former since 2013 (Outlaw Run).

I can't claim to know all the motives, rationales, or reasons, to why parks have built what they do, but if we're going of the assumption that they're doing whats in their best interest, then one could conclude that the rivals to many of Intamin's products are more desirable from an overall value perspective factoring in operating/maintenance costs, reliability, etc.

Do you know how long ring racer operated?  Gale force had to be ALL retracked after opening, the chinese coasters all had massive downtime, etc?

[SonofBaconator]

27 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

Sorry.  SOB states that S&S is more reliable than Intamin. 

I never said that at all. The closest thing I can think of that sounded relatively close to S&S being more reliable than Intamin was talking about their 4d freespins. S&S has built 10 freespins since 2015, Intamin has only ever built 4 with the last one being in 2011; Green Lantern even has its own Defunctland video. Obviously there's a reason why parks are buying from S&S instead of Intamin. Heck Intamin redesigned their Zac Spin and as of 2020 there's no talks of one being built.

I also said Intamin has a bad track record with CF where S&S does not.

[BeastForever]

The reason for ring racer's closure had more so had to do with financial problems. The coaster was set to open the following season, but Nurburgring went bankrupt in 2014, and their successors deemed the ride "not economically viable" to operate. (not enough attendance/revenue to justify the costs).

Galeforce is merely just a one-off coaster at this point. The issues with that ride I'm sure are not weighing on Cedar Fair's mind when deciding to put in an S&S Freespin at KD.

I should emphasize that in no way did I say S&S's has run into problems as well.

They have. They most definitely have. But its all just about what poses less risk, and all things considered, S&S appears to have less of it (for their rides that are comparable to Intamin - namely Compressed Air vs. Hydraulic Launch, Freespin vs. Zacspin)

[coaster sally]

3 minutes ago, BeastForever said:

The reason for ring racer's closure had more so had to do with financial problems. The coaster was set to open the following season, but Nurburgring went bankrupt in 2014, and their successors deemed the ride "not economically viable" to operate. (not enough attendance/revenue to justify the costs).

Galeforce is merely just a one-off coaster at this point. The issues with that ride I'm sure are not weighing on Cedar Fair's mind when deciding to put in an S&S Freespin at KD.

I should emphasize that in no way did I say S&S's has run into problems as well, but its all just about what poses less risk, and all things considered, S&S appears to have less of it (for their rides that are comparable to Intamin - namely Compressed Air vs. Hydraulic Launch, Freespin vs. Zacspin)

Ring racer's air compressed launch system blew up and injured employees.  Also they had to initially decrease the launch speed substantially.  if the ride was not an epic failure it would not had to cost way to much money to correct.  Intamin built only a handfull of zach spins.  The one in europe is highly praised.  The one at MM had to be nutured to comply with California law.

[BeastForever]

51 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

Ring racer's air compressed launch system blew up and injured employees.  Also they had to initially decrease the launch speed substantially.  if the ride was not an epic failure it would not had to cost way to much money to correct.  Intamin built only a handfull of zach spins.  The one in europe is highly praised.  The one at MM had to be nutured to comply with California law.

It was an over-ambitious design, certainly, and I suppose Intamin gets the W when it comes 100mph+ launch coasters, as they have made 4 successful ones to S&S's one (Dodonpa). S&S definitely bit of more than they can chew with ringracer (and would agree that the mechanical problems in turn compounded the financial problems).

They've dialed it back since then, and I would say they've generally redeemed themselves with a wave of refined ~80 mph launchers. They've sold four compressed air coasters since ring racer (https://rcdb.com/r.htm?order=8&ot=2&el=12164), and of the two of those already built and in operation (the other two under construction, set to open this year) I've not heard of any major issues or incidents related to them.

Again, I'm not saying S&S Compressed Air coasters or Freespins have issues or run into downtime. They do, but one would think they're at least somewhat less problematic than Zacspins and Accelerator coasters. Otherwise, the former would not have outsold the latter.

[coaster sally]

3 minutes ago, BeastForever said:

It was an over-ambitious design, certainly, and I suppose Intamin gets the W when it comes 100mph+ launch coasters, as they have made 4 successful ones to S&S's one (Dodonpa). S&S definitely bit of more than they can chew with ringracer (and would agree that the mechanical problems in turn compounded the financial problems).

But I would say they've generally redeemed themselves since then. They've sold four compressed air coasters since ring racer (https://rcdb.com/r.htm?order=8&ot=2&el=12164), and of the two of those already built and in operation (the other two under construction, set to open this year) I've not heard of any major issues or incidents related to them.

Again, I'm not saying S&S Compressed Air coasters or Freespins have issues or run into downtime. They do, but one would think they're at least somewhat less problematic than Zacspins and Accelerator coasters. Otherwise, the former would not have outsold the latter.

Lsms are way more reliable.....

[BeastForever]

They are, but typically don't accelerate nearly as fast as the Compressed Air and Hydraulic systems, which is why made sure to specify those two for comparison.

Intamin is doing quite well in the LSM market.