BeastForever

I should have clarified. It was Superman at SFGAdv. While I would admit Tatsu, Manta, and their flyers overseas look to be great rides (and probably are superior to three flying dutchmen), I still just don't think I would want a B&M flyer at KI, for the simple reason of the fly-to-lie configuration. One of the most uncormfortable experiences I've ever had on a ride. Once, I got stuck on the brake run for a good 10 minutes at SFGAdv, felt like I was going to pass out Meanwhile, I never had any problem with Vekoma's lie-to-fly. I guess I'm in the minority on that. I'll take the risk of a sunburn over all the blood rushing to my head... Yes, Nighthawk is very rough (I've heard/read), but I always found Firehawk to be smooth. Batwing, I've heard mixed things reagarding its smoothness... All I'm saying is that the one Vekoma Flyer (Firehawk) I found to be much more enjoyable than the one B&M flyer (Superman) I've ridden. B&M flyers are better capacity than Vekoma's, but still not nearly as good as B&M Dives, Wings, Floorless etc They also seem to have a fair amount of downtime as well (although perhaps still not as much as Vekoma flyers) If a custom B&M flyer were to come KI, or another CF park sometime in the future, I suppose it would be a welcome addition, but holistically speaking there are just so much better options to be had IMO.

If I'm being completely honest, (and forgive me if this comes off a little negative, especially this late in the game), what we're seeing right now is precisely why I was never on board with the whole "you won't notice 13ft" argument. With the elevation disadvantage, paired with its placement in the back left of the park, I think were beginning to see that it really could have used all the height it can get in order to appear more imposing onto the rest of the park. Or at least, its a slippery slope. I would say that it was never so much about 13 ft as much as it is about 20-30 ft, given the expectation that it was going to clear 300 ft by at least some amount, even if by just 5-10 ft. Having it at 300 flat was kind of pushing it to begin with, but take away an additional 13 ft? And yes, I do think it results in a noticeable discrepancy between this and previous gigas... However, on the other hand (and this is positive), I'm starting to think that what is lessening the ride visually (placement), will end up enhancing the ride from an experience standpoint. Come to think of it, I never wanted this to be a parking lot coaster anyway, so I'm actually glad to see it break from Fury and Leviathan in that regard. Sure, it won't be as immediately noticeable at the front of the park, in the way the aforementioned B&M gigas are... But if better night rides/seclusion come at the slight expense of imposition onto the rest of the park, then that is an A-ok tradeoff in my view! Think about it. Would you rather be riding past a mundane ocean of concrete, traffic lines, and car light glare, OR flying through the trees and foliage of the dark Ohio woods after sundown? I think you know my pick...

I don't think we're going to see a new flyer come to any CF park in the forseeable future, B&M or otherwise... They tend to have some of the slowest dispatch times, cost more to operate, less reliable, and for a lot of people, are just plain uncomfortable. While I enjoyed Firehawk, I can't say I particularly cared much for the B&M flyer I've ridden. Starting and ending in the flying position I found to be incredibly uncomfortable, and not rerideable in the slightest. One of those rare times that a Vekoma greatly outshines a B&M...

^That just may be the greatest set of metaphors I've seen used to describe anything ever... Well done, sir.

*Somewhat big post* So I think what's worth noting here (as it is in all discussions regarding ride removal) is that whether something is a "bad" or "good" ride doesn't hold much relevance so long as guests are still riding it - that is, enough guests to justify the operating cost (which can vary greatly depending on what type of ride it is. There is a reason why so many SLCs are still operating. Sure, they may be terrible rides. But so long as people, out of their own free active will, are choosing to ride them despite them being such "bad" rides, then they shall remain open. Unless tthat is, the ride is giving riders such bad experiences that its putting the park at literal liable risk (Son of Beast). But otherwise, no, getting a headache from riding Vortex or Invertigo is not putting anyone in imminent danger. ---- On the other hand, however, a ride being "good" does not automatically save it from the chopping block, such as Firehawk. If not enough peeps are riding due to low capacity combined with too high of an operating cost (cost/per rider), then it has a viable case for removal. I'm afraid Flight of Fear might fall into that realm. The consensus is that its still a very good ride, but its ridership most obviously suffers from low throughput, and with it being launched I can imagine the operating cost is at least somewhat greater than the average chain lift coaster. But reasuringly, none of its sister rides in KD's FOF, Joker's Jinx, Poltergeist, and Crazy Cobra (overseas) have closed yet, which I think can be considered a good sign. And I think the fact of it being indoors certainly may help in extending its longevity The only high-profile Premier to have a service life much shorter than expected would be the Chiller, but even that I'm willing to dismiss for being the one-off protoype model it was. ----- As for The Bat? Yes, I do wonder how long it has until unrepairable metal fatigue sets in (which I believe will be reason when it finally goes, after all its ridership is still very good due to great throughput) For reference, these are the five remaining Arrow Suspendeds: And these are the defunct ones: I think it would be relevant to look the reason of closing for each defunct Arrow Suspended. Original Bat - Thats obvious. Prototype, too many design flaws etc., you know the story.... XLR-8 - The park it was in went under so don't know how much longer it would have lasted after that. Big Bad Wolf - While they certainly buffed out all the major errors associated with the 1981 Bat, on their 2nd/3rd go it at. I think this still suffered a little from an overly intense/ambitious design. It had trims going down both drops, and even then it looks as if they put a significant amount of stress on the structure Eagle Fortess - its said here that a reason was never explicitly stated by the park, but I would imagine it nearing the end of its service life, paired with being placed on such an adverse terrain, the park saw it not worth operating. Hayabusa - similiar situation. No statement from the park, except it was closed after an incident in 2005, never to re-open. ---- Having said all that, the fact that Iron Dragon is six years older than The Bat and still running is good news. But at the same time, just like with Corkscrew, the ride is significantly tamer and not on as big a scale as its counterpart at KI, which might make major repairs less difficult/costly for Iron Dragon. ----

And so there you have it. The track record becomes eve more unbreakable, if that comes into fruition. And if you're discluding topper track, that'd leave them with... ...just 4158 ft of truly wooden track between Viper and Little Dipper. Which brings me back to my point, nothing will be required of KI to maintain their standing as the leading wooden coaster park. In fact, it will become even more distinguished the more other parks convert existing coasters As a side note, I would envision the Boss getting RMC'ed sometime in the forseeable future, however something tells me SFStl just isn't high enough on their respective corporate totem pole to receive such an investment. Who knows, we'll see...

Which is why I specifically said "by track length". I understand that what you might consider to be the "best" wooden coaster collection might differ significantly from simply who has the most amount of track, since that is entirely subjective and up to one's opinion. But what I'm trying to get it as that KI already does distinguish themselves from any other in that regard. Note that the track record was emphasized greatly MT's announcement. So I am arguing based on that, I would say Cedar Fair feels they've already accomplished the goal of making KI known as the "premier" wooden coaster park.

But are we really in any danger of losing that distinction anytime soon? If ever? Unlikely, I would say. With so few new wooden coasters being built in general relative to steel, I'd say the track record is safe as ever, unless HW goes with another wooden coaster, which I don't see hapening considering how full they've got their hands right now with keeping their current woodies in acceptable condition. And even then it would have to be a monster 5800 ft wooden coaster to surpass KI Herhseypark at this point is more likely to RMC an existing woodie (Wildcat), than add another. And like HW, they're not really that close to KI's track record either. Six Flags Great America is the only park with a truly plausible chance to (re)capture the record with another woodie, but I just don't see it happening. For reference this is the tale of the tape currently for the leading wooden coaster parks by track length (topper track included for convenience. I know, I know I dont think theyre truly wooden coasters either but what the parks say goes I guess...) Kings Island - 18,804 SFGAm - 16,558 Hersheypark - 13,329 Holiday World - 13,284 As much I like wooden coasters, particularly the ones we already have, I would have to agree with the sentiment that receiving another one, whether it be from GCI, RMC, or otherwise would be redundant and unnecessary.

While I think both styles look cool in their own right, I picked other being Steel Dragon, which appears to be even more imposing than Millennium Force due to having even more trusses and latices make up the support structure. The Arrow and Morgan hypers always seemed the most awe-inspiring for this reason, and Steel Dragon just takes it to whole different level. Just look at this thing.

And while I can't speak on the veracity nor really comment as I'm not all that into the minutiae of Universal, I believe there's quite the strong rumor out there that the true reason for Dragon Challenge's removal wasn't much past simply JK Rowling demanding its removal. She hated the ride existing in her land, supposedly (and the licensing would give her that much power I guess?) But at the same time, its said here that popularity had decreased substantially ever since the dueling aspect was rid of in 2011. So I think that could have been the main factor. I never rode the ride, and it certainly looked like a lot of fun, but Hagrid's appears to be a proper replacement, in my view.

Anectodal evidence is not data, but... In my one day visit to CP earlier this year Raptor went down multiple times in that same day, and neither closing was wind-related... Really, I think the issue here is that were conflating "rarely" breaking down with never breaking down. I would say rides at your home park are always going to seem to run into more issues than their respective peers at other parks, because you'll hear about it every time they do. Who knows? Does Nitro, Raging Bull, Behemoth, Intimidator etc. really have any less downtime than Diamondback. Or is it just that when they go down we don't hear about it, since most of us do not frequent those parks as much as KI. Certainly, I suppose anything is possible, since at the end of the day, their all just machines, like any other ride. But given the level of quality control that goes into these rides, paired with the fact that they're not "one-off" coasters really in any way, I just have a hard time believing Diamondback is somehow any less reliable than its counterparts. But like I said, maybe it is. But if it is, then one would most certainly have question why?

Apologies for the last part; did not mean any offense! It was just the first analogy that came to my mind when assessing this situation. Its something I've heard a lot, but have always been skeptical of. Granted, I'll admit that I can't speak on how things truly were back then, whether on KIC or in society in general. So I'll take your word for it. All I'm trying to get at is that the past is often viewed through rose-colored glasses, and I feel that this is just another case of it (comparing 2019 KIC to KIC 2010-2018, that is).

1. This isn't a coaster forum, but a park-specific forum. I hate to knitpick at that point but I feel there is important enough a distinction to be made. Non-park specific coaster forums (CoasterForce, TPR, Coasterbuzz) etc. have a much broader following, spread out amongst several different parks, so you're not going to find as many intense disagreements over small things that some are very passionate about as you would find on a park-specific forum (I-Street fountains come to mind). We're also one of the most, if not the most active park-specific forums (sans the Disney ones) out there which makes it even harder to keep the culture under control. 2. There isn't much acting out on TPR, in large part due to their posters living under constant fear of being insta-banned and/or brutally lambasted by the mods/admins, sometimes at even the slightest disagreement or issue they have with said mods/admins. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer the "dangerous freedom" we have here even if it means threads like this happening every once in a while as a result. 3. I feel this whole "KIC isn't what it used to be" has been claimed so many times throughout the years that its lost virtually all meaning. In my time here alone (since 2010) I recall it being brought up during the Son of Beast SBNO era (2009-2012), Banshee speculation (2013), MT speculation (2016), and unsurprisingly it came up once again during Orion speculation, and is coming up once again now. I can't speak on anytime before 2009-2010, but I bet its brought up several times even before then. As far I'm concerned, the "what has happened to KIC?" narrative has become the equivalent of older people claiming they "used to be able to leave their doors unlocked".

I mean to be fair with the whole Volcano situation, the ride went down in May of last year (never to reopen).They didn't fully know yet whether they were going to close it until well into the off-season. There was nothing they could really do to give it a proper send-off. Similiar situation for Son of Beast (Except that was 3 agonizing years of waiting for an answer). That having said, it sure would have been nice to know about the Crypt's closing in advance... Could be worse I suppose. Would've hated to be a Great Adventure guest during the summer of 2007, where they all but had to witness The Chiller dismantlement right before their very eyes, and in peak season no less. I believe Hypersonic was closed without giving proper notice as well. Somewhat off topic, but man, those three launched coasters. They sure helped in paving one of the many paths amusement innovation hath travelled, as all three of them now have successful versions operating today, but my goodness the combined issues those rides resulted in. But like I've said, failed rides seem to happen less and less anymore across all manufacturers, as their technologies become ever more refined and exciting as ever. And as for all the flak Intamin received for Volcano, lest we forget Hypersonic and The Chiller - neither of them a product of the hot-button manufacturer in question. Groundbreakedness naturally incurs more risk...

I'm neither of those people, but I believe that is accurate.

Welcome back! Say, I think I actually do remember you from awhile back. Cormaster being you're name ( but I don't recall any "stupid" posts, lol! ) As for Terp, no unfortunately he is not still around (on the forum). A couple years ago I believe it was an issue that arose where his employer does not want him having an online presence. But last I've heard about him he's doing well otherwise!

It makes me wonder, but I wouldn't say it makes me worry...

By general standards, yes. These rides will leave much to be desired in the capacity realm. But by launched coaster standards, I'd say 18-20 riders per train is about par for the course. That having said, if a new multilauncher would come to KI sometime in the forseaable future, I hope it doesn't have the spike/switch track element. While they definitely look like cool maneuvers, I am not sure its worth having less than three-train operation.

Oh ok. Now that that makes sense! Haha you're good. Thanks for the clarification. At first, I had thought you were serious. Really I was just genuinely confused as to how that post could have made someone sad!

Hello @FUN&ONLY! I just wanted to let you know before you read this, if that earlier post of mine in this thread made you tear up, well then get the kleenex ready for this one! List of Premier Rides Innovations: - Developed the first LIM to be successfully implemented onto a coaster, seen as a major breakthrough from the earlier Schwarzkopf systems of propulsion (flywheel, weight drop etc.) - Pioneered the first lap bar restraints capable of handling inversions (OTHER than just vertical loops a la Schwarzkopf) - Utilized the "sliding station" as seen on the Mr. Freeze rides, in order to make it possible to run TWO trains simultaneously on a shuttle coaster - Held the record for largest vertical loop for a short time time with Full Throttle, as well as having track run on both sides of the same structure (crest of the loop) - Developed the one-of-a-kind "Ferris Wheel Lift" as seen briefly on Round About at the now long-defunct Freestyle Music Park (I know, I know - maintenance nightmare but points for trying I guess!) - Created Speed - The Ride, which I believe was the longest shuttle coaster in the world at the time, Mr Freeze still the longest non-complete circuit shuttle - Revenge of the Mummy rides and Italian Job: Stunt Tracks - among the first family and themed launched coasters - First quasi-mobius launch coaster in West Coast Racers (well, when or IF that opens this year!) Waterworks in 3...2...1... :P

2011. Without question. Why? Two words... Holiday Horror. In its first year that was probably my favorite maze I had ever experienced at the park. I believe it was still pretty good in the years following, but with there being just a bit less effort put into it IIRC. Close second would be 2010, as it was the last season featuring Trail of Terror, and I remember Urgent Scare being done exceptionally well that year as well.

Adventure Express is incredibly young in mine train years. The mine trains of Six Flags Over Texas, and Over Georgia for example, are nearly twice its age. CC Mine Ride just turned 50 this year. AE is 28. (It's not going anywhere, rest assured )

Call me crazy, but unless Holiday World or SFGAm has a big new wood coaster up their sleeves (which is doubtful), I'd say the track record is safe as any for now. It won't really be necessary to extend it. Therefore, if its an RMC you might as well go with ground-up I-box.

And as for the untimely demise of the original Bat... Huss fault was that anyway?