CedarPointer Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 ^^Again, as the pundits have opined, there are a multitude of reasons that WOF is being mentioned...at the bottom of that list would be due to it being a money loser or park that CF doesn't want. So, then, why would they add a new coaster? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRider Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Few reassons I can think of. They want to continue to compete in the market they are in, make the park more attractive to a buyer, if WoF has a great year CF can sell the park for more. Also Prowler was not a huge investment overall for CF. Im sure the park will see a great return on the investment. A lot of bang for the buck. I see Valleyfair and WoF being on the market because Cedar Fair does not want to compete in those markets and honestly I cant blame them. Those parks dont have huge populous areas surrounding them and they are not dominating parks like Cedar Point that will draw visitors from all over. Also we all know the story of Great America. Look at the other parks CF has and their locations. Here is my run down. Dorney Park - Excelent location to the mass of folks that live on the East coast. Philly, New York City, Jersey, and Harrisburg are within 90 minutes. Not to mention you can reach out to DC and Baltimore in a little under 3 hours. That is a massive population to pull from Kings Dominion - Once again great location on the East coast. Has Richmond, Washington DC, Pittsburgh, and Raleigh Durham within a close distance, really nothing more than 2 hour drive for those big cities. Another massive population to pull from Carowinds - Has the untapped Carolina market at its fingertips. Located in Charlotte which is a midway point for many tourists heading for the beaches along the North and South Carolina coast. Also Columbia SC and Winston Salem NC are very close. I see Carowinds being the focus for a lot of good things in the future from Cedar Fair, especially the rumored 2010 B&M Mega. The park is ready to explode it just needs some TLC. Canada's Wonderland - Located just minutes north of one of the most beautiful cities in North America in Toronto. Also very close to Bufalo, Ottawa and Montreal. No wonder this park took off with the addition of Behemoth. Kings Island - North Side of Cincinnati, Lexington and Louisville, Columbus, Indianapolis, Wheeling. No wonder KI is booming and Cedar Fair is showing the love with additions like Firehawk and Diamondback. KI could easily overtake Cedar Point as the crown jewel. Michigan's Adventure - It is simply what Geauga Lake used to be. Also MA is reaping the benefits of an area that is becoming a tourist hot spot in the West Coast of Michigan. Traverse City, Saginaw and even Detroit. More folks have discovered the charm of the UP or upper peninsula and Michigan's Adventure is reaping the rewards. Knott's Berry Farm - Is a destination within itself. Doesn't hurt its 10 minutes from Disneyland and only 30 minutes from downtown Los Angeles. Enough said. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 The Motley Fool: "Hooray, They're Cutting Your Dividend:" http://www.fool.com/investing/dividends-in...r-dividend.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoddaH1994 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 The Motley Fool: "Hooray, They're Cutting Your Dividend:" http://www.fool.com/investing/dividends-in...r-dividend.aspx He keeps commenting about a 6% ride per limited unit, but according to Fidelity, it closed at $7.86, up $1.49 or 23.39%. He may have been referring to yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Ryan, it was written yesterday, March 10, before the market close. And read the first sentence carefully: Amusement park operator Cedar Fair (NYSE: FUN) saw its units climb 6% yesterday (followed by today's market run-up). a. Yesterday on yesterday was the day before yesterday. b. "Today's market run-up" wasn't finished yet at the time Rick wrote the story. Separately: Cedar Fair's World of Hurt: http://themeparks.about.com/b/2009/03/10/c...rld-of-hurt.htm A two day response to an action, particularly when the second day was one of the market's strongest in many a moon, is not necessarily indicative nor not indicative of the future. One day or action does not normally a long term market make. That being said, the day Cedar Fair took on Paramount Parks has certainly made virtually all the difference since. I wonder if Mr. Kinzel would have done the same thing then if he knew what he knows now. Somehow, I suspect, he would have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windshawne Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I dont know what all this means, but I can say with confidence the hurt is not over yet. I am the only one in my circle who is still employed. My daughters roommate lost both her jobs last week, another friend of hers lost her job yesterday-theres 3 people who are unemployed in the last two weeks alone. Stock price means nothing if you're loaded with debt-and times being what they are, you gotta do what you have to do to survive. Citibank announcing profits yesterday caused this temporary rally. They made a profit by increasing interest rates and fees on their cardholders, even for good paying customers like me. An hour on the phone with India stopped that little scheme. Today I am pulling an 11 hour day because the workload is so heavy, yet there is no hiring going on right now. My friends in dayton are still waiting for the cuts I suspect will start on friday. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigellinus Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 ^^Not really the thread to delve into such topics, but as someone who's dept. has also been cut by a 3rd, I can tell you life ain't so breezy for the survivors as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Press Release Source: Cedar Fair Entertainment Company Cedar Fair Retains Merrill Lynch & Co. to Explore the Sale of Certain Assets Friday March 13, 2009, 6:22 pm EDT Cedar Fair LP SANDUSKY, Ohio, March 13 -- Cedar Fair Entertainment Company), a leader in regional amusement resorts, water parks and active entertainment, today announced that it retained the services of Merrill Lynch & Co. to assist the company in exploring the sale of certain assets and other strategic alternatives. Cedar Fair's chairman, president and chief executive officer, Dick Kinzel, stated, "We continue to be focused on our commitment to reducing debt. Exploring the sale of certain assets is a proactive step towards strengthening our financial position over the long term." Cedar Fair is a publicly traded partnership headquartered in Sandusky, Ohio, and one of the largest regional amusement-resort operators in the world. The Partnership owns and operates 11 amusement parks, six outdoor water parks, one indoor water park and five hotels. Amusement parks in the company's northern region include two in Ohio: Cedar Point, consistently voted "Best Amusement Park in the World" in Amusement Today polls and Kings Island; as well as Canada's Wonderland, near Toronto; Dorney Park, PA; Valleyfair, MN; and Michigan's Adventure, MI. In the southern region are Kings Dominion, VA; Carowinds, NC; and Worlds of Fun, MO. Western parks in California include: Knott's Berry Farm; Great America; and Gilroy Gardens, which is managed under contract. This news release and prior releases are available online at http://www.cedarfair.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoddaH1994 Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Ryan, it was written yesterday, March 10, before the market close. And read the first sentence carefully: Amusement park operator Cedar Fair (NYSE: FUN) saw its units climb 6% yesterday (followed by today's market run-up). a. Yesterday on yesterday was the day before yesterday. b. "Today's market run-up" wasn't finished yet at the time Rick wrote the story. Separately: Cedar Fair's World of Hurt: http://themeparks.about.com/b/2009/03/10/c...rld-of-hurt.htm A two day response to an action, particularly when the second day was one of the market's strongest in many a moon, is not necessarily indicative nor not indicative of the future. One day or action does not normally a long term market make. That being said, the day Cedar Fair took on Paramount Parks has certainly made virtually all the difference since. I wonder if Mr. Kinzel would have done the same thing then if he knew what he knows now. Somehow, I suspect, he would have. mmmmk.... But for those for the thousands in attendance and the millions watching at home, here are the stocks we're watching (as of closing bell Friday): Cedar Fair LP (FUN) $8.63 per limited partner unit, which is down 0.8% Six Flags (SIX) $0.16 per share, down 15.79% (a 52 week low) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastersRZ Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 But keep in mind that Six Flags` stock is down because the company has admitted that it might need to file for bankruptcy because of large payments due in August. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 And because of the drumbeat of media attention. The media thinks they have found a developing story. And, perhaps they have...perhaps they have not. It all depends on what SIX's lenders and bondholders do at this point. Likewise, to a large extent in Cedar Fair's case, it depends on whether or not FUN can sell enough property at sufficient prices to keep their lenders and bondholders happy....if they can't, a few days of upside on units in mid-March after an announcement of what the company intended to do isn't going to matter. And as for those few days of upside, some perspective: ... On February 2, 2009, Cedar Fair Entertainment closed trading at its lowest level since 1992, at $8.90, down $0.59 from the previous day's close. FUN closed Friday's trading session at $8.63, down $0.07 or 0.80% on a volume of 197k shares on the NYSE.... http://www.rttnews.com/ArticleView.aspx?Id=882572&SMap=1 So, after those few days of upside, it still hasn't gotten back to what was on February 2 the lowest close since 1992! And what brought on that low? The rumblings the company was going to have to refinance. Remember, Mr. Kinzel said that before the conference call, the company was probably going to announce a refinancing. During the conference call, the 'deadline' was moved to later that week, early the next week. It was first said Cedar Fair extended the deadline, but this was quickly corrected to the lenders had. Then there was no such announcement of refinancing. Eventually, the proposed asset sale was then announced. As Captain Picard sagely noted at the time, we now know how the refinancing effort at the banks went. For a bit of insight, read between the lines of Cedar Fair's own press release here (with emphasis added by me for your assistance): Cedar Fair Entertainment Co., an operator of regional amusement resorts, water parks and active entertainment, Friday said it has retained the services of Merrill Lynch & Co. for assistance in exploring the sale of certain assets and other strategic alternatives... http://news.prnewswire.com/ViewContent.asp...8396&EDATE= (emphasis added) In the accounting, financial and legal communities, the italicized words include, but are not limited to, anything from a change of direction for the company's marketing up to and including a change of management, of control, restructuring including bankruptcy, liquidation, etc. I am not saying Cedar Fair is going to do any of those things, but I am saying the debt levels are such and the economic environment is such that the company apparently feels the need to hire Merrill Lynch & Co. (of all people...they ran their own business so very, very well) to explore the sale of certain assets (which may or may not yet have been publicly disclosed) and other strategic alternatives. To sum up, if anyone out there is feeling smug that Six Flags may well go bankrupt and thinks Cedar Fair is in fantastic financial shape and that the last three days of stock market action in any way prove that, you may need to visit the fount of reality sooner than you think. Or not. These are difficult times for industry of any type, but particularly industry deep in debt and dependent on the consumer market for spending. Cedar Fair fits both categories. They, like Six Flags, took on way too much debt in an over-expansion effort. The differences between the two are primarily in the time frame...SIX did long before Cedar Fair did, and in Cedar Fair's long record of profitability, large distributions and operational excellence. Those last things may not be enough to save the company in the face of the crushing debtload and consumer market it faces...or they may. Stay tuned. Never was it more true that past performance may not be an indicator of future performance. We live in different times. Very different. Then again, we always did. That being said, things are more like they are now then they were when I got here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Picard Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I keep remembering a conference call where they was asked how much the dividend would be cut and couldn't say because the parks are not open yet. The day is coming when FUN has to refinance that debt and I don't think they will be able to get it. They should have cut the dividend to 0 and try to save the company and worry less about lining their pockets. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goofywdw Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Just read this in the news paper. Title is "Kings Island owner explores sale of 3 other parks" "North America's third larges amusement park chain announced Monday, March 9, it was considering selling Worlds of Fun in Kansas City, Mo., and Valleyfair near Minneapolis. and a now closed park near Cleveland (Geauga Lake)." It also says that "Cutting the distribution rate to $1 per limited partner unit along with other payments will help lower debt by about $200 Million over the next 3 years" This was in the Pulse Journal-Little Miami. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 ...But with credit still hard to come by, selling assets may prove difficult. Cedar Fair has been trying for more than a year to sell California's Great America in Santa Clara, Calif., one of the five parks it bought from Paramount. Cedar Fair also is trying to sell Worlds of Fun in Kansas City, Mo., and Valleyfair near Minneapolis. Also up for sale is the site of Geauga Lake amusement park near Cleveland, which closed at the end of 2007.... http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/03/14/ap6167653.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Picard Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Cut a dividend and get a 100% cash bonus award. You have to bend over and take it but Kinzel Dick doesn't have to. http://www.cedarfair.com/_upload/2009%20pr...amp;%20card.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Wonderland Land Sale Underway; Vaughn Council Commits $80 Million Canadian: ...Various councillors including Peter Meffe, Tony Carella and Bernie Divona supported foundation chair Michael DeGasperis, insisting that no decision had been made on how much of the $80 million would be spent on buying the land.... http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/638569 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Five and a half years later, the Canadian land sold, no parks were sold, and the "Cleveland area" land remains forlornly on the market.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 ...and the "Cleveland area" land... As for that Cedar Fair commitment to reducing debt mentioned in the first post here... Interest rates will go up again. There is a faint ticking noise in the background... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Just a reminder of how thankful we should be for the Knott family, Geoff Raynor and Q: http://www.thestreet.com/story/13224612/1/why-cedar-fair-remains-a-good-value-after-its-stunning-recovery.html Note that debt levels have barely been reduced at all--dividends to unitholders instead... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBEW_Sparky Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 The way I read this (yes I admit Im a cynic about things like this) is that they are playing a shell game to make themselves look healthier than they are, and their shareholders (like is the norm for America) get richer while their debt continues to stagnate with the debtors left holding said stagnant debt. Im sorry, but Im from the school that teaches "You pay your darn debts BEFORE the 'profit' is shared amongst the already rich". Yeah, yeah I know this has become the way of American business, but I am honestly curious because I am not fully knowledgeable.... can said debtors come forward and demand the use of that money for repayment of the stagnant debt, or are they simply happy collecting the interest for what looks to be indefinitely? 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 They have no claim against the earnings unless otherwise agreed or the company is in default. Over at SIX, they are buying back stock instead of paying down debt. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBEW_Sparky Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I had a feeling that was the case, regarding the debt, thank you for that clarification my Friend. It still sticks in my craw, though. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shark6495 Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 But it's no different that people will proudly pay $75month on a 700+ credit card debt while buying more on that card.... My real concern/question about everything is what happens if CF can't be bought outright. Will they spin the parks off individually or will they strip em down and limit the sale of the land... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 The "Cleveland land" has still not sold... The parks, if that day ever comes, would be sold individually. If bad comes, it is apt to come to SIX and FUN nearly simultaneously. It almost did last time. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medford Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 I had a feeling that was the case, regarding the debt, thank you for that clarification my Friend. It still sticks in my craw, though. its really no different than most people's mortgages. You buy a house for $150k, and agree to pay $1,000 a month for 30 years (or 15 or 20 or whatever, just using rough numbers and not looking at current interest rates). At the end of the month, when all bills are paid you find yourself with an extra $500 sitting around. You can spend it on something extra, perhaps make some improvements to said house to help increase the value of that house, or you could tuck it away in a bank and earn a little extra on that money in a savings account or thru a stock purchase. The mortgage company doesn't have the right to look into your finances and say "hey you had an extra $500 sitting around, I want my money sooner, as long as you are current upon your agreed upon mortgage, what you do w/ the extra money is up to you. Pay back the loan a little sooner if you like, but in the current market, there are many people that obtained loans at 4% or less interest rates. Historically, the stock market will return roughly 7-10% a year over the long run (and 15 years is typically considered a long run) so you'd be better off "historically" to put that extra money into an S&P 500 fund that to pay off your house a little a quicker. Of course, historical performance is no guarantee of future results, so there is risk involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastersRZ Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 But, you must be able to pay your debts when they come due. If you have a big debt payment that is coming due soon, you need to save up to ensure that you are able to cover that debt amount when it is due. Otherwise, you will be faced with unfavorable options such as selling assets to cover the obligation or bankruptcy. On the flip side, if you do have extra money, and you put it towards your debt, you can reduce your interest payments significantly. (An extra $100 a month on a 30 year mortgage could save $20,000 and result in the mortgage being paid off five or so years sooner! Hopefully, when Cedar Fair`s debt mature, they can either pay them off, or refinance them. Some amount of debt is good. I am a little surprised at the rate at which they have increased their cash distributions and haven`t put any towards pushing down their debt levels. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBEW_Sparky Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 I am a little surprised at the rate at which they have increased their cash distributions and haven`t put any towards pushing down their debt levels. That, is the part that fundamentally irritates me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brskeen Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 On an unrelated note, does this mean an interested party could find a favorable setting for a Geauga Lake bid? Sent from my ASUS MeMO Pad 7 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Interpreter Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Perhaps, but it would depend in part on what that interested party wanted to do with the land. Plus, Meijer is/was buying a part of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malem Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 I'd venture to guess that already being loaded with debt makes the company significantly less attractive as a takeover target. I wonder how much debt the company would have in 2016, independently or merged with SIX, had the Apollo deal went through. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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