Dinosaurs Alive! is coming to Kings Island in 2011

[Browntggrr]

^ But in the conversation of DA, "Goodwill" has no bering as it does not cost the guest anymore to enter the park (going concern value is not effected), nor has DA taken away from the same guest experience they had in 2010.

Now a great example of "Goodwill" is WS. The park is adding a ride, with no increase in the ticket price.

DA is simply an option, with an optional expense.

If a person does not want to see DA due to the cost, so be it as it is their decision.

For a person to threaten to not go to the park because of an entertainment option is simply a poor excuse and they probably were not going anyway.

If your example of "Goodwill" was true, we would all suffer as consumers because businesses would be too afraid to change or add anything.

[RingMaster]

It would be intresting to know how much this exhibit actually costs KI.

The Calgary Zoo's DA! apparently cost a mere $1 million to create, yet that is with only 20 some odd animatronic dinosaurs.

Given the fact that ours has almost triple the amount of creatures and is 4,000 feet long, I would imagine a ball-park figure of, let's say, $4 or $5 million.

Which, to add up the cost of WindSeeker (at $5 million) and the Coney Mall revamp (a guess of around $2 or $3 million), that brings the total up to around $13 million for these three items.

I can already hear some folks going, "Bu-bu-but that's enough to build a woodie back behind The Racer! Why couldn't they just do THAT?! Dinosaurs are STUPID, GIVE ME MY COASTER BECAUSE I'M NOT FULLY SATISFIED WITH Diamondback AND/OR Firehawk!!!11!!"

[BavarianBeatle]

^ But in the conversation of DA, "Goodwill" has no bering as it does not cost the guest anymore to enter the park (going concern value is not effected), nor has DA taken away from the same guest experience they had in 2010.

Now a great example of "Goodwill" is WS. The park is adding a ride, with no increase in the ticket price.

DA is simply an option, with an optional expense.

If a person does not want to see DA due to the cost, so be it as it is their decision.

For a person to threaten to not go to the park because of an entertainment option is simply a poor excuse and they probably were not going anyway.

If your example of "Goodwill" was true, we would all suffer as consumers because businesses would be too afraid to change or add anything.

May I politely suggest that you look into the definition of the term "goodwill?"....

[Browntggrr]

Sure.

I already know what it means, and your concept is (suger coating it) tainted for the sake of this particular discussion.

Goodwill is intangible value created by a business which may be converted into tangible value.

A business' goodwill may be described as a combination of any or all of elements such as: market penetration, brand awareness, customer loyalty, size and quality of customer list, longevity in the marketplace, proprietary products, intellectual property, etc.

Practically, the goodwill elements listed above contribute to the performance of the business in its day-to-day operation.

Transactionally, goodwill may be converted into tangible value for the business owners when seeking investors, a purchaser, or even when proposing a loan from a bank.

The value of goodwill is directly influenced by the performance of the business.

http://www.askjim.biz/answers/goodwill-definition_2093.php

[SOB_TOM]

Just throwing this out there: Florida already has a dinosaur park: Dinoland!

Regardless of how much this costs for installation, whatever KI makes off of this is going to turn into profit (I know I know, not pure profit because they still have to pay off the original installation fee and the amount specified by the contract for an outside company to maintain it) so I don't see KI thinking along the lines of "How long will this take to pay off?" I see them thinking, "How much can we pump this for before it becomes unsafe to have people back there?" (bringing up the Rivertown Nature Trail.)

After seeing the Orlando parks, I'm realizing more and more that KI doesn't seem to know how to invest properly. For example: Universal just sank close to $300 million into the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, and after experiencing it, they are printing their own money. When I went on Friday, the section was closed until around 6pm because of the crowd that was in the area, and you had queue lines set up for the GIFT SHOPS.

Another example: Sea World is known for Shamu, but instead of sitting on just that claim, Sea World went out and built three themed rides (and Manta is just themed brilliantly,) and added at least two other shows that rival the best shows that KI has ever put on since they opened that will keep people coming in for years to come.

Why is it that KI cannot do something along these lines? I understand that building new areas that are themed beautifully, good rides, and maintaining those two ideas are expensive, but they do pay off in the long run more than trying to please two different demographics with mediocre additions.

[The Interpreter]

There are many reasons for what Cedar Fair does (and no, no one stole Terpy and left you this writer).

Among them are:

* Kings Island is not one park among many others in the same location, where the parks not only complement each other but also compete. Perhaps worse, three of Kings Island's primary park competitors either went out of business (and may stay that way) or now share common ownership with Kings Island and are no longer seen as competition. One reason Kings Dominion gets more attention these days is because BGW is just down the road. Now something is down the road from KI and more may be later...so the park gets this creation.

* Kings Island is a seasonal park and will never merit the level of investment that parks in Florida and California can and do. (Having said that, compare and contrast Dollywood, though).

* Kings Island is owned by an owner deeply in debt and whose every investment move is now second guessed by many, at least some of whom have veto power or darn near it, from Q to lenders.

* Kings Island has hide bound management in Sandusky that knows how to get visitors...build another coaster, ride or attraction. Not enough attention is paid to maintaining what it has.

I must point out Universal's IOA went through many, many years of decline, lack of proper maintenance for the theming, and a dearth of new attractions. It is only in the past couple of years (and the then coming sale of NBCUniversal <funny how that works> that things turned around).

Given all that, how Cedar Fair does business has changed dramatically since June 30, 2006. And if I am right (and I suspect I am), you ain't seen nothing yet in that regard. Hold on, it's going to be an interesting ride (same for NBCUniversal's parks, too; and for the Seaworld organization....and the same can even be said for Flags). The times they are a changin'.

[Dieseltech20]

I can already hear some folks going, "Bu-bu-but that's enough to build a woodie back behind The Racer! Why couldn't they just do THAT?! Dinosaurs are STUPID, GIVE ME MY COASTER BECAUSE I'M NOT FULLY SATISFIED WITH Diamondback AND/OR Firehawk!!!11!!"

You're very close. The majority of it is kids crying that they want SOB back. Lots of talk about how stupid dinos are and people with half a dozen or more kids that think it's too expensive.

[PREMiERdrum]

Let's not confuse the Facebook complainers with the park's average guests...

Plenty will complain and whine that its an upcharge, but why aren't they complaining about Ripcord? Thunder Alley? And what about the beloved, dearly departed monorail ride through the Wild Animal Habitat?

Let's look at it this way:

Let's say that KI caves in to the Facebook whiners, and Dinosaurs Alive (!) is now free with park admission. What issues would that bring about?

First, if they planned to charge $5.00 per head to get in, but now it's free. That lost revenue would need to be made up somewhere. If they expected 1 of each 5 park guests to visit Dinosaurs Alive (!) at $5, they'd have to tack $1 onto each general admission to make up for that. And if their projection had 1/2 of all guests visiting Dinosaurs Alive (!) this season (high, but closer to likelihood than 1/5), that's $2.50 they'd have to add to each GA ticket to recoup.

In addition to that, if DA were included with standard admission, you'd had to account for much higher maintenance and repair costs. As has already been mentioned here, the upcharge discourages riffraff who may otherwise damage and vandalize the attraction. Those costs would then be spread across the gate as well, increasing ticket prices.

There's also the issue of the peculiar timing of this addition, debuting the same year as WindSeeker. If I were to guess (and I guess I will), DA (!) was in development before CF corporate P&D decided that Kings Island would be one of the lucky parks to receive the new swing towers. A contract for DA (!) had likely already been signed (it takes quite a while to hand-carve 60 lifesize dinosaurs, I'd imagine), so the park brings them both the same year: One is free with admission, the other a nominal upcharge.

[Snowman]

In addition to that, if DA were included with standard admission, you'd had to account for much higher maintenance and repair costs. As has already been mentioned here, the upcharge discourages riffraff who may otherwise damage and vandalize the attraction. Those costs would then be spread across the gate as well, increasing ticket prices.

I'm not really disagreeing with you but merely adding a point to ponder. Doesn't the daily admission to the park, parking, and/or cost of a season pass discourage most vandalizing "riffraff" anyway?

[PREMiERdrum]

In addition to that, if DA were included with standard admission, you'd had to account for much higher maintenance and repair costs. As has already been mentioned here, the upcharge discourages riffraff who may otherwise damage and vandalize the attraction. Those costs would then be spread across the gate as well, increasing ticket prices.

I'm not really disagreeing with you but merely adding a point to ponder. Doesn't the daily admission to the park, parking, and/or cost of a season pass discourage most vandalizing "riffraff" anyway?

To an extent, but a visit to the park will show you that plenty of vandalism and defacing of property goes on. I'm not saying that the $5 upcharge will eliminate it, but it will certainly limit it.

[FOFsavant]

In addition to that, if DA were included with standard admission, you'd had to account for much higher maintenance and repair costs. As has already been mentioned here, the upcharge discourages riffraff who may otherwise damage and vandalize the attraction. Those costs would then be spread across the gate as well, increasing ticket prices.

I'm not really disagreeing with you but merely adding a point to ponder. Doesn't the daily admission to the park, parking, and/or cost of a season pass discourage most vandalizing "riffraff" anyway?

I suppose the upcharge serves as a second barrier of riffaff protection.

[bkroz]

I'm on the bandwagon that an up-charge is a necessity here. It is all but required in order to keep people respectful of the property that they will be in such close contact with.

But in that same regard, this upcharge is not a do-or-die for the attraction's income like it might be on Skyflier or Slingshot. As I said, this Dinosaurs Alive attraction will operate, opening to dusk, every day, whether five or five hundred people visit. All that's needed is a small showing of commitment from the visitor that they wish the exhibit no harm, and I think $4.00 for non-passholders and $2.00 (or even $3.00) for passholders is plenty, even if it meant general admission price increased by a dollar to cover for the difference.

$16.00 vs. $20.00. That's the difference for a family of four. Even if that extra $4.00 is made up in admission price, I simply feel that they'll feel much less gouged (and thus, more likely to visit the extra exhibit) if they pay $16.00 instead of $20.00. And for a family who has spent upwards of $300 on passes, does $8.00 extra not seem a fair price, since they've already shown their commitment to the park through buying passes?

A group of rowdy teens, even if they're passholders, is very unlikely to open their wallets just for the opportunity to goof around at an exhibit.

[Diamondback FOF]

Some people go to the park to have fun with their friends. Some of those people are idiots and decide to vandalize stuff because "it's cool"

[BavarianBeatle]

Sure.

I already know what it means, and your concept is (suger coating it) tainted for the sake of this particular discussion.

Goodwill is intangible value created by a business which may be converted into tangible value.

A business' goodwill may be described as a combination of any or all of elements such as: market penetration, brand awareness, customer loyalty, size and quality of customer list, longevity in the marketplace, proprietary products, intellectual property, etc.

Practically, the goodwill elements listed above contribute to the performance of the business in its day-to-day operation.

Transactionally, goodwill may be converted into tangible value for the business owners when seeking investors, a purchaser, or even when proposing a loan from a bank.

The value of goodwill is directly influenced by the performance of the business.

http://www.askjim.bi...nition_2093.php

After rereading our discussion, it appears we agree on many things. You were making the point that guests should not be upset by an optional $5.00 upcharge, and I agree with that. But it appears, at least to me, that there are people who in fact are upset by it and are perceiving KI negatively and telling their friends and family to do the same. I hope those people are a small minority, but the negativity out there does concern me.

[King Maple The Tree King]

Doesn't the daily admission to the park, parking, and/or cost of a season pass discourage most vandalizing "riffraff" anyway?

Have you ever been to Haunt?

[Snowman]

Have you ever been to Haunt?

Last year was mine and my wife's first Haunt. We went every weekend and had a blast. We never saw any vandalism, other than the terrible things done to staplers and garbage cans by scantily clad midgets with down right sassy attitudes.

Was there an incident not published that you were refering to?

[Delirium13]

I'd also imagine a lot of the "riffraff" who vandalize the park are kids whose passes were paid for by their parents, were dropped off by their parents, and are enjoying the park virtually for free. So the parking and cost of admission has little to no effect on them. (Disclaimer: There has been a lot of sensitivity about comments like this lately - so yes, this is an assumption of mine and no, I don't think everyone who fits the description are vandals)

It really is a shame that people feel the need to ruin things just to look cool, ruining everyone else's experience.

[The Interpreter]

I never realized the high price of Broadway tickets was meant to keep out the low class riff raff who otherwise might attend, laugh in the wrong places, throw tomatoes and attend while drunk.

I learn something new every day.

Thank you.

Now, tell me why the shows at Kings Island are free with admission.

[gigacoaster2k]

I realize that I'm taking a risk by not posting a happy rainbows-and-butterflies opinion on this website, but there is an issue here that needs to be addressed.

I think that if the money for this attraction isn't going to fund rehab for the rides in the park that are falling apart, then it's a huge waste of money.

Delirium has not run the same since its big breakdown in 2005. It doesn't swing as high as it used to, it makes a loud metallic whine noise when it swings, and it really slows down once it hits its apex, which is barely above a 90 degree angle compared to the way maXair at Cedar Point swings at a 110 degree angle and you can actually see behind you, almost as if you are upside down. Delirium is also quite jerky when slowing down from hitting its apex. Anyone who has ridden Delirium and maXair will tell you the same.. yes, they may show as the same ride on the websites, but it is not the same ride experience.

Crypt used to be a terrific Huss top spin. It's now to the point where neither enthusiasts nor the general public enjoy the ride, and it is now known as the world's only indoor Ferris wheel.

Son of Beast: Enough said.

Is Delirium going to continue to run like crap? Is Crypt going to slow down to the point where it will close for "an undetermined amount of time" and just be a non-operational top spin in a building with a blocked-off walkway and no sign out front? Will we ever know what fate Son of Beast is going to face?

I hope the admission costs from Dinosaurs Alive will go toward repair costs for the abovementioned rides. Yes, we are getting WindSeeker, but that does not change facts.. adding new rides does not fix our existing ones. I'd like to know what is being done to save our existing rides. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

[Snowman]

^ I agree completely with everything on your list gigacoaster2k. May I add to your wish list. When you ride the train in Cedar Point the western town with the skeletons is absolutely amazing! When you ride KI's train, all you see is empty remnents of what looks like a really cool themed train ride. Would it really be too expensive to prop up a few animatronics? Maybe even grab a few props that are scattered around the park during Haunt. Heck, put a Dinosaur out there! It's such a great train ride and path, it just seems so neglected.

[kjkjkj]

I realize that I'm taking a risk by not posting a happy rainbows-and-butterflies opinion on this website, but there is an issue here that needs to be addressed.

I think that if the money for this attraction isn't going to fund rehab for the rides in the park that are falling apart, then it's a huge waste of money.

Delirium has not run the same since its big breakdown in 2005. It doesn't swing as high as it used to, it makes a loud metallic whine noise when it swings, and it really slows down once it hits its apex, which is barely above a 90 degree angle compared to the way maXair at Cedar Point swings at a 110 degree angle and you can actually see behind you, almost as if you are upside down. Delirium is also quite jerky when slowing down from hitting its apex. Anyone who has ridden Delirium and maXair will tell you the same.. yes, they may show as the same ride on the websites, but it is not the same ride experience.

Crypt used to be a terrific Huss top spin. It's now to the point where neither enthusiasts nor the general public enjoy the ride, and it is now known as the world's only indoor Ferris wheel.

Son of Beast: Enough said.

Is Delirium going to continue to run like crap? Is Crypt going to slow down to the point where it will close for "an undetermined amount of time" and just be a non-operational top spin in a building with a blocked-off walkway and no sign out front? Will we ever know what fate Son of Beast is going to face?

I hope the admission costs from Dinosaurs Alive will go toward repair costs for the abovementioned rides. Yes, we are getting WindSeeker, but that does not change facts.. adding new rides does not fix our existing ones. I'd like to know what is being done to save our existing rides. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

Actually, compared to 2 years ago Delirium ran great last season. They seemed to fix the problem where it doesn't swing as high, and it seemed to "get up to speed" faster. I noticed this last year and actually made a topic about how I thought that it had improved and was actually close to how it was back in 2003.

[Browntggrr]

Aside from you comment on the upcharge for DA, which is your opinion, there could be simple answers to the issues you brought up.

Delirium has not run the same since its big breakdown in 2005. It doesn't swing as high as it used to, it makes a loud metallic whine noise when it swings, and it really slows down once it hits its apex, which is barely above a 90 degree angle compared to the way maXair at Cedar Point swings at a 110 degree angle and you can actually see behind you, almost as if you are upside down. Delirium is also quite jerky when slowing down from hitting its apex. Anyone who has ridden Delirium and maXair will tell you the same.. yes, they may show as the same ride on the websites, but it is not the same ride experience.

Delirium opened in 2003 & MaXair in 2005. The improvments Huss made in two years could be result in the difference on how each ride is operated. That two year difference could be the restraint Delirium faces.

Crypt used to be a terrific Huss top spin. It's now to the point where neither enthusiasts nor the general public enjoy the ride, and it is now known as the world's only indoor Ferris wheel.

I do not remember Crypt/ TR ever running "terrific". It had issues from day one- which is probably the reason it is the only Giant Top Spin Huss has made.

Son of Beast: Enough said.

Ever see the movie "Money Pit"? It's not the greatest movie, but when it comes to SoB, the similarities between the movie & the ride are eerily similar- even the humor.

I do not know where KI spends their money or how money is disributed nor will I pertend to know how each ride is supposed to run. I would be surprised if in the budget, maintenence was not near the top of the list of expenses behind payroll & utility costs. It would also not surprise me if ride constraints (in the two Huss examples) determine how each operates.

You can take a piece of crap, shine it up real nice- and you still have a piece of crap.

[CoasterGeek101]

I think that this attraction could get some major bucks.

[standbyme]

Now, tell me why the shows at Kings Island are free with admission.

So it can appear that they have "sell out crowds" during Haunt.

[The Interpreter]

Now, tell me why the shows at Kings Island are free with admission.

So it can appear that they have "sell out crowds" during Haunt.

BOO!

Terp, who just HAD to

[Flat Freak]

...

You're right. Crypt stinks on ice. SOB is a disaster of truly epic proportions. (Although I think Delirium is running quite nicely). And I agree with Snowman that KI&MV RR is nothing more than a shuttle to the water park, and a shell of its former self. The park needs theme work. Top Gun badly needed its paint job (interested to see it - it might have been structurally sound but sometimes perception...)

Where we disagree...I think Dinosaurs Alive(!) is costing the park very little to install and will help an economy-saddled, debt-ridden company bring in a few shekels to repair rides, restore/replace theming, and maybe install a gigacoaster or three (which would be fine in an empty parking lot if I had my way).

DA(!) is about casual visitors. A family of four once-a-year visitors, paying $140 for discounted admission, $10 for parking, and even a paltry $50 for food/souvenirs/games (which is likely low for casual visitors) is dropping $200. It only takes 25,000 such families to earn back the $5 Million some have estimated this attraction to cost. Can they get 25,000 such families in one year that would otherwise not have visited the park? Betcha they make a good run at it, and I'm quite sure they know exactly how many families of four that include boys between the ages of 4 and 10 live within a two hour drive of the park, and I'm quite sure they know exactly what percentage of each demographic this exhibitor has drawn to their previous shows.

Gramma, I wanna go Keens Island an' see da dinosaurs!!!

I can find reason to doubt FUN (see first paragraph for an example). I have no doubts about this decision.

[BavarianBeatle]

Now, tell me why the shows at Kings Island are free with admission.

So it can appear that they have "sell out crowds" during Haunt.

BOO!

Terp, who just HAD to

The shows are free so that guests know that they are getting what they pay for.......

[The Interpreter]

Kirk's gonna BOO you, sir!

[standbyme]

The shows are free so that guests know that they are getting what they pay for.......

No offense...but lately you don't quite to be your usual happy self. With that said, I have to say that line is funny!

[SOB_TOM]

Where we disagree...I think Dinosaurs Alive(!) is costing the park very little to install and will help an economy-saddled, debt-ridden company bring in a few shekels to repair rides, restore/replace theming, and maybe install a gigacoaster or three (which would be fine in an empty parking lot if I had my way).

DA(!) is about casual visitors. A family of four once-a-year visitors, paying $140 for discounted admission, $10 for parking, and even a paltry $50 for food/souvenirs/games (which is likely low for casual visitors) is dropping $200. It only takes 25,000 such families to earn back the $5 Million some have estimated this attraction to cost. Can they get 25,000 such families in one year that would otherwise not have visited the park? Betcha they make a good run at it, and I'm quite sure they know exactly how many families of four that include boys between the ages of 4 and 10 live within a two hour drive of the park, and I'm quite sure they know exactly what percentage of each demographic this exhibitor has drawn to their previous shows.

I don't see in the near future KI installing any gigacoasters, not with FUN in the trouble it is in right now, even though I would love to see a newly themed area pop up.

Also, I doubt that the park sees an increase in attendance because of this "attraction." If people were that hungry to see dinosaurs, the Museum Center constantly has them on display.

As for your attendance figures: Yes, they will earn back the money they spent this year on the new "attraction," if you don't count in upkeep of the park, employee salary, bills, ect. We are also talking once a year visitors, and at any point in the season, about 75% of those in the park are pass holders, so the park never banks on the admission prices.