Decoding 2020

[KIghostguy]

4 minutes ago, WhereDidBeastieGo said:

Anyone have a thought about the fact that KI had some investments that went south before their anticipated lifetime?  SOB, Flight commander, Tomb Raider/Crypt come to mind.  Maybe if those had not been soured so quickly they would have the funds to definitely make a record breaker??

Those were all so relatively long ago, the park has certainly recouped those investments by now.

[SonofBaconator]

Also SOB and TRTR we're both extremely complex rides. When it comes to maintenance Diamondback, Banshee, and MT are fairly easy by comparison.

[ldhudsonjr]

3 hours ago, Logan said:

Yeah but if our giga was better than Fury it would probably be better than anything at CP and take away from it. Also Carowinds has much more potential for growth than KI does.

This point has been made multiple times......

[BeastForever]

4 hours ago, Logan said:

Yeah but if our giga was better than Fury it would probably be better than anything at CP and take away from it. Also Carowinds has much more potential for growth than KI does.

 

3 hours ago, Logan said:

No because Carowinds and CP aren’t in similar markets like KI is.

If this coaster does not live up to Fury simply because there wasn't as much money allotted to this project as was for Fury (and not as much money because of not as much growth potential), then that would make sense...

But no, I do not believe there is some convoluted excitement limit/control scheme at play, strategically making sure certain rides aren't "too good" so as to not 'overshadow' rides at other parks.

The truth is, a ride built at KI, of any scale, does not make Fury, Steel Vengeance, Millennium Force, or any other ride at any park smaller, slower, shorter, or less world-class.

If Cedar Point's reputation as 'the go-to place for coasters' truly was of concern, then I don't think they would be building a giga or any coaster at all. Heck, would they have even built DB, Banshee, Mystic Timbers, or invest in this park in the first place? There is some overlap in the markets, but I think its safe to say at this point that CP and KI are far away enough so they don't directly compete with each other.

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On 5/11/2019 at 4:31 PM, ldhudsonjr said:

I really don't get this line of thinking. Cedar Fair owns BOTH parks. I really have a hard time imagining that part of their plan is to make certain parks worse than others. KI and CP will always have some attendance overlap, and I'd be willing to bet some years they draw from each other more than others. If anything, building up both parks with stellar lineups will help them to up sell to Platinum passes in our market.

It doesn't really make sense to me that they'd build a "meh" Gigga Coaster intentionally in order to keep Cedar Point where it is in people's minds. A Gigga is going to make Kings Island the star of next season in Ohio regardless. They can't adjust the "Gigga-ness" like a dial to try and reach the perfect level of luke-warm hype to keep Cedar Point on top.

My thoughts exactly.

Suppose that in spite of this coaster so-called subpar stats, through one way or another it ends up being widely regarded the best giga any way, which I would agree is still a possibility (ie. not as long as Fury or MF, but better elements; or a better balance of intensity of comfort as opposed to I305). It wins #1 in GTA steel list jumping all of Fury, MF, and SV...

So would this cause Cedar Fair execs into some sort of 'panic' - something along the lines of?:

"WHAT?!?! That wasn't part of the plan! This was supposed to be just an "ok" ride, not 'amazing' or 'world-class'! This calls for drastic measures. We need to install hard trims ASAP on each drop, and mandate 5 whole minutes between dispatches to ENSURE that those Kings Islanders aren't having too much fun!"

[BeeastFarmer]

On the walk back of The Beast earlier, I definitely heard chain saws and a chipper running. I was on the gravel road on the hill before the mcbr, near where the new culverts are.

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[AdventureExpress35]

1 hour ago, SonofBaconator said:

They could afford other types of coasters though. Holiday world spent $22 million on Thunderbird where as CP payed $21 million for Maverick so I think the money's there for Holiday World's sake. I don't know if HW got the ROI they wanted or not but they got something to differentiate themselves from KI. HW might get another big coaster like a Dive or something that KI doesn't have which would certainly keep them competitive.

Holiday world waited 10 years after Voyage to afford T-bird.

[Rivertown Rider]

19 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said:

On the walk back of The Beast earlier, I definitely heard chain saws and a chipper running. I was on the gravel road on the hill before the mcbr, near where the new culverts are.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

Yeah I think there was probably a good reason we didn't walk back as far as we did last year.

[SonofBaconator]

A lot of people are forgetting Kings Dominion got a giga in 2010 before the rest of the high tier Cedar Fair parks got theirs. Its not necessarily about who's better.

[thatguyfromohio]

A lot of people are forgetting Kings Dominion got a giga in 2010 before the rest of the high tier Cedar Fair parks got theirs. Its not necessarily about who's better.

Ya and Kings dominion feels worn out and is in the middle of no where with one major city near by


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[WhereDidBeastieGo]

Does anyone else on here refresh these pages multiple times an hour and is on pins and needles??

[thatguyfromohio]

Does anyone else on here refresh these pages multiple times an hour and is on pins and needles??

Constantly checking back, I have notifications muted Incase another “leak layout” pops up and I get 300 notifications while at work


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[fryoj]

2 hours ago, WhereDidBeastieGo said:

Anyone have a thought about the fact that KI had some investments that went south before their anticipated lifetime?  SOB, Flight commander, Tomb Raider/Crypt come to mind.  Maybe if those had not been soured so quickly they would have the funds to definitely make a record breaker??

Except all of those were built before Cedar Fair bought the park. 

 

[darkmarkman]

1 hour ago, WhereDidBeastieGo said:

Does anyone else on here refresh these pages multiple times an hour and is on pins and needles??

I'm right there with you! I'm stuck at home recovering from ankle surgery and bored, so I'm refreshing the page constantly.  Its driving me nuts that we have no one at coasterstock updating with pics. 

[presto123]

6 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

^^Blue imo fits better with a space/sci fi theme. I've also thought of dark purple and black (different enough from Banshee.)

Aliens are most often green. I'm on the green track AND blue/black supports team. Fluorescent green to be exact.

[FirefighterENG44]

5 minutes ago, darkmarkman said:

I'm right there with you! I'm stuck at home recovering from ankle surgery and bored, so I'm refreshing the page constantly.  Its driving me nuts that we have no one at coasterstock updating with pics. 

No kidding!  

[Rivertown Rider]

I'm at Coasterstock and there is really not much new to see other than they are working on the pad between Racer and FOF and it looks to be slightly bigger than yesterday.  They have flattened it out and I would expect them to be pouring concrete within the next week for whatever is going there.  I still think it will be a new maintenance building.

[MDMC01]

Hey all, just catching up and I've got a few things to say:

1. RE: The X-Base restaurant- that would be really cool! If said restaurant were similar to the picture posted by @Hawaiian Coasters 325, I'd love it if the giga was close by so guests could see the coaster whiz by as they are eating. Maybe that could be a really "twisty" (sorry) part of the ride (think Rougarou's back half or most of Raging Bull at SFGAM) that would be really low to the ground (or maybe one of the cool elements mentioned on here like the Treble Clef or Shambala's turn) and then fly out of sight with an airtime hill to the next part of the course (or the brakes).

2. That would be awesome if Holiday World got a Dive. They could either put it in Thanksgiving (in the land between Hyena Falls and Thunderbird) OR somewhere in Fourth of July as they are the one major area, (besides Christmas, which is kinda like our International Street in a way) that doesn't have a coaster (and no Howler doesn't count ). If they were to put a Dive coaster in the 4th of July area (which would of course have Red, White and Blue trains and the same color chaser lights like Valravn did that one time), I think it should go in the area near Firecracker. But I'd rather see it in the Thanksgiving spot anyway. Sorry, I'm getting a little carried away... lol

3. RE: Complex rides, see also Firehawk. IIRC, that was the most complex ride at the park at the time and had the most sensors as well.

4. Flourscent green track would be sick (as in, awesome)! Don't know how I'd feel about that on (our) Giga, though...

4. And finally, regarding this thought process of certain parks in the chain getting better rides then the others (and therefore some parks getting "downgraded" coasters because they shouldn't overshadow the big dogs), that doesn't make sense as it would be smart to strengthen ALL of the assets in your portfolio, not just one or two...

-MDMC, who doesn't like to think of KI as a business, but as a great place to have fun!

[KI_FAN_4_LIFE]

6 hours ago, KIghostguy said:

Those were all so relatively long ago, the park has certainly recouped those investments by now.

I wouldn’t be so sure, I believe SOB and TRTR were both the biggest investments at the times of their release.  I am sure they were expecting wayyy more longevity out of them.  I believe they were both around 21 million.  To put that in prospective  Millennium cost 25M, revolutionized roller coasters, brought CP millions and is still going strong today.  

I agree with the OP, even though all parks go through some ride failures, these were 2 huge setbacks for our park.  

[fryoj]

4 minutes ago, KI_FAN_4_LIFE said:

I wouldn’t be so sure, I believe SOB and TRTR were both the biggest investments at the times of their release.  I am sure they were expecting wayyy more longevity out of them.  I believe they were both around 21 million.  To put that in prospective  Millennium cost 25M, revolutionized roller coasters, brought CP millions and is still going strong today.  

I agree with the OP, even though all parks go through some ride failures, these were 2 huge setbacks for our park.  

Pretty sure Paramount, which paid for those rides, has wrote those off the books by now. 

[FUN&ONLY!]

I definitely think Kings Island has had a much greater money loss due to short-lived attractions than most other parks. If you think about it... between 2000 and 2002 alone, the park invested about 40 million dollars into Son of Brady and Tomb Raider: The Ride, and in the following years, they put another 10 million into Son of Beast repairs.

That is roughly 50 million dollars worth of new rides investments, in which, the attractions only lasted about ten years each, respectively. Just think about what the park would look like now if that 50 million was put towards lasting coasters from B&M, Intamin, or some other high quality manufacturer and not put to waste.

I really do that that Cedar Fair has vastly improved Kings Island’s lineup as they have put in some really great and lasting additions. I do not even know what the best ride was at the park before Cedar Fair took over, but it would probably still be The Beast which was put in by Taft.

[KI_FAN_4_LIFE]

5 minutes ago, fryoj said:

Pretty sure Paramount, which paid for those rides, has wrote those off the books by now. 

Ummm... so not to try and explain basic business principle here but... Cedar Fair bought KI including these huge investments.  I am sure they were factored in lol.  So, again I don’t know but... I am assuming that Cedar Fair would have liked some more bang for their buck. 

[AdventureExpress35]

Re: Tomb Raider-

At the time, I think Paramount was trying to be more like Disney/universal as far as theming goes. They wanted this huge dark ride that was heavily themed and that no one had done before. Unfortunately TRTR didn’t pan out the way they hoped. I remember someone wrote in the Enquirer that it was an indoor coaster. So there’s 15 year old me who just waited 4 hours to ride this thing, imagining something like Indiana Jones at Disneyland and instead getting a giant Huss top spin. It was a cool ride when it first opened, but not what I was expecting at all.

[fryoj]

1 minute ago, KI_FAN_4_LIFE said:

Ummm... so not to try and explain basic business principle here but... Cedar Fair bought KI including these huge investments.  I am sure they were factored in lol.  So, again I don’t know but... I am assuming that Cedar Fair would have liked some more bang for their buck. 

lol yeah Cedar Fair had no idea of the problems of those rides before they bought all of the paramount parks in one shot. It's a shame you weren't around to explain basic business principles to them. 

[FUN&ONLY!]

In general, I think Paramount was pretty bad with ride investments. Most of the rides they put in were small-scale and clones of other rides, and when they did try to go all out, they went with the wrong manufacturer to get the job done! And what park makes a new flat ride (TRTR) their biggest investment ever? I think the 20+ million dollars they spent on TRTR would have been much better spent on a new large-scale rollercoaster. Coasters bring in attendance that flat rides never can!

[KIghostguy]

45 minutes ago, KI_FAN_4_LIFE said:

I believe they were both around 21 million.  

Son of Beast was more than that.

[KI_FAN_4_LIFE]

34 minutes ago, fryoj said:

lol yeah Cedar Fair had no idea of the problems of those rides before they bought all of the paramount parks in one shot. It's a shame you weren't around to explain basic business principles to them. 

Well I am not sure if you are being sarcastic about them knowing but, in the case you are not... 

Obviously I do not think that Cedar Fair was aware that these attractions would be defunct shortly after they purchased them, they probably hid what they knew  the best they could and on the contrary they were probably used both as selling points. 

And yes just because the overall purchase has been a great success still doesn’t mean that they wanted to see 50M of their purchased assets go down the drain.  After all then they in turn probably invested in our coaster line up sooner to make up for the loss which again costs more money.  Of course all of this is easy in hindsight and I never have a problem with trying new things and pushing the envelope, even if that means somethings end up in the scrap heap.  That is how the industry has gotten to where it is at today.  

[Sorner]

It also sucks that they lost both rides around the same time, kind of. Removing many of the elements that made TR unique must have caused a decrease in public interest and ridership. They lost SoB in 2009, then officially lost Crypt in 2011. I’m glad to see the park continue to grow from its movie park days.

This new coaster will be great and a significant investment into the park. Cedar Fair is obviously very interested in KI and the fact we’re even getting a giga is amazing. Don’t forget that they own 13 properties and, currently, only 3 have giga coasters. Only 6 exist in the world right now and we will have the 7th.

[FUN&ONLY!]

6 minutes ago, Sorner said:

It also sucks that they lost both rides around the same time, kind of. Removing many of the elements that made TR unique must have caused a decrease in public interest and ridership. They lost SoB in 2009, then officially lost Crypt in 2011. I’m glad to see the park continue to grow from its movie park days.

This new coaster will be great and a significant investment into the park. Cedar Fair is obviously very interested in KI and the fact we’re even getting a giga is amazing. Don’t forget that they own 13 properties and, currently, only 3 have giga coasters. Only 6 exist in the world right now and we will have the 7th.

I agree with you completely, but right now, currently four of Cedar Fair’s properties have giga coasters: Cedar Point, Kings Dominion, Canada’s Wonderland, and Carowinds. Kings Island’s giga would be the fifth in the chain. The other two parks that have gigas are overseas with one being a Morgan coaster and another being an Intamin Accelerator coaster.

[BeastForever]

Correct.

Both investments:

- were ambitious, groundbreaking, only-of-its kind 

- cost $20 million+.

- significantly and rapidly deteriorated over time

- underwent major alterations midway throughout their lifespans, at an attempt to salvage what was left (and at the expense of capacity)

- operated in parts of just ten seasons

- ended up being tremendous wastes of money that would have been much better allocated elsewhere.

- and left behind painfuul reminders of what once was, and what could have been, in the form of permanent haunt mazes...

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We know.

Its incredibly disappointing, and really just sad to think about...

Now back to the topic... 2020

 

[Sorner]

@FUN&ONLY! Whoops, totally forgot Canada’s Wonderland has a giga. Still, out of all the parks in the world, we’re going to be one with a giga. I’m not complaining