The end of B&M is coming?

[Gabe]

20 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

I think it all depends on how popular a ride is. People don't necessarily like Hulk because its a B&M but more so because its a very popular IP. 

Whether Busch Gardens keeps Montu or Kumba depends on how popular they continue to be with guests. If they were the top two most ridden rides in the park, there might be incentive to retrack them out of popularity. Dueling Dragons wasn't necessarily a popular ride and when Harry Potter came in, they tried to tie it in to the wizarding world the best they could. Not to say that it was unpopular, it was just a coaster that lost the dueling feature. 

If the Hagrid's ride could have been built elsewhere, I don't necessarily think Universal would have scrapped Dragon Challenge at that time. IMO when it comes to themed rides, its not the manufacturer that makes the ride popular, its the park. Case in point- look at who manufactured Expedition Everest. 

Vortex was still enjoying high ridership in 2019..in the end, maintenance issues are what determines a coaster (or any ride's) fate.

[coaster sally]

30 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Vortex was still enjoying high ridership in 2019..in the end, maintenance issues are what determines a coaster (or any ride's) fate.

my point is someone said dragon challenge was at the end of its life and montu and kumba has been around longer at a year round park.

[SonofBaconator]

"Reaching the end of its service Life" is basically a PR term used to justify the removal of an asset.

If a ride is popular and the parts are available then a park will do everything in its power to keep it operating- even if it means replacing all the track.

[CoastersRZ]

Yes.  There comes a point where the park has to weigh the maintenance cost of a ride verse the return on investing in other existing attractions/new attractions.  Sometimes, the cost of upkeep on a ride does not justify the expense.  There isn`t enough return on investment/ridership to justify the cost.  Look at The Racer.  The park has spent money on upgrading and maintaining it because it is one of their classic rides.  And it has good capacity.  

Vortex likely needed an expensive overhaul.  One that park management deemed did not justify the expense.  Keep in mind that Vortex was designed in the late `80s.  Way before computer aided design programs were around.  Compared to today`s latest and greatest scream machines, Vortex was ancient.  Yes, I was sad to see it go.  The only thing that bums me out is to see such a prime area of real estate at Kings Island sitting behind a tall fence with just grass planted on it.  I do wish they would have saved some of the trees behind LaRosa`s when they took it out.  I am hopeful that in the future there will be a new attraction(s) in that plot of land that will continue to thrill guests for years to come.

[SonofBaconator]

Arrow hardly used modern tech

Watch their attempt at a modern coaster

 

[flightoffear1996]

On 2/1/2021 at 1:05 PM, SonofBaconator said:

In all honesty though I understand what you're getting at but I don't think they're coming to an end. They're certainly not the manufacturer you want to go to when you're on a budget. I do think parks might go for more affordable companies like Vekoma, Gerstlauer, etc coming out of this pandemic. I wouldn't be surprised if Cedar Fair started installing more 4d freespins and maybe even sky rockets.

I expect it'll be slow for B&M these next few years coming out of the pandemic but I don't think they're doomed. I'm sure there will be parks in Europe who will want their own Fury type coaster. Who knows, maybe this pandemic will encourage B&M to make new designs that are more affordable for smaller parks. They don't have a single coaster that features 2 across seating with exception to their family coaster and Steel Dragon's new trains.

I wouldnt be so sure on that.  This year the park has been packed and people have been spending big money at the park.  They are going to recover whatever money they lost last year pretty quickly.  At least Kings Island will.  Not sure about the other parks in the chain.  From the things I have been reading SF as a whole has been handling this better than Cedar Fair.

[CoastersRZ]

What do you mean that you think SF has been handling this better than Cedar Fair?  

I agree that Six Flags has added operating days, while Cedar Fair has paired back their operating days and hours.

[grsupercity]

16 minutes ago, CoastersRZ said:

What do you mean that you think SF has been handling this better than Cedar Fair?  

I agree that Six Flags has added operating days, while Cedar Fair has paired back their operating days and hours.

Six Flags has created new events, added days and hours and done everything they can to keep chugging along. Cedar Fair has been very cautious. 

[King Ding Dong]

5 hours ago, flightoffear1996 said:

This year the park has been packed and people have been spending big money at the park. 

They have?  What on?  Hard to spend money when you are stuck in long lines.  What is your source on that?  Do you have some reports from the KI accounting system?  

[KIghostguy]

52 minutes ago, King Ding Dong said:

They have?  What on?  Hard to spend money when you are stuck in long lines.  What is your source on that?  Do you have some reports from the KI accounting system?  

I can’t speak for the park as a whole, but from my perspective in merchandise, people have been spending a lot. On 5/15 I sold the highest amount I’ve done in one day in my five seasons in merchandise. 

[disco2000]

1 hour ago, KIghostguy said:

I can’t speak for the park as a whole, but from my perspective in merchandise, people have been spending a lot. On 5/15 I sold the highest amount I’ve done in one day in my five seasons in merchandise. 

Probably because you were up-selling your book 

[BeastForever]

With regards to the manufacturer discussion earlier, I will continue to maintain my stance that I have posited several times before...

That there simply is not a whole lot Intamin has done in the past ten years concept-wise that hasn't been done by other manufacturers, and that is not a coincidence.

There was a time where they enjoyed a monopoly on certain products, but the industry has responded resoundingly.

Name which is the Intamin ride...

https://coasterforce.com/dev/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/AlpinaBlitzNigloland-1024x576.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/DC_Rivals_HyperCoaster's_Non-Inverted_Loop.jpg/1200px-DC_Rivals_HyperCoaster's_Non-Inverted_Loop.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fkvzow5.jpg

The answer?

None of them.

That's right. All three of them (Alpina Blitz, DC Rivals Hypercoaster, Helix respectively) are indeed Mack Rides.

It's obvious that their resemblances to certain Intamin coasters are striking, but what's worth noting that they receive fairly similar praise from enthusiasts as their Intamin counterparts do. (At least, judging by various Mitch-Hawker based polls - ElloCoaster, TPR etc.)

Helix checked in at #10 steel coaster in the world on the most recent TPR poll - two spots in front Taron at #12, five spots behind Maverick at #5.

Alpina Blitz (first one pictured) is essentially Mack's rendition of Intamin's mega-lite model. It was #39, behind the Mega-Lite model at #33.

DC Rivals Hypercoaster is a top ten steel coaster sitting at #8. For reference, Expedition GeForce ranked as #4 and Hyperion ranked as #24.

https://coasterpoll.com/results/2020-steel-results?page=1

Name pretty much any coaster that Intamin has made outside of the two stratacoasters + Red Force and there is a fairly close equivalent/substitute made by some other manufacturer.

So really I guess what I'm saying is, who needs Intamin anymore when there is Mack?

(As well as RMC, Gerstlauer, Vekoma, Premier, S&S etc. who have made their share of contributions as well in recent years)

And honestly, I don't even really see this an "either/or" situation between making GP or enthusiasts happy, when so many Mack Rides rank closely to Intamin rides of the similar concept in enthusiast polls anyway.

Most of us seem to be in agreement that a break from B&M is welcome, but we understand parks like the qualities that a B&M coaster provides.

Since Mack Rides are almost as reliable as B&Ms and have a (presumably) excellent safety record, I would say working with the them is a win/win/win.

--

Apologies to those who may be tired of the age-old manufacture debates, as even I acknowledge they often just end up with the same talking points we all know being reverberated over and over again...

But... I just couldn't resist.  

What can I say? It's one of my favorite topics, apparently...

[coaster sally]

8 minutes ago, BeastForever said:

With regards to the manufacturer discussion earlier, I will continue to maintain my stance that I have posited several times before...

That there simply is not a whole lot Intamin has done in the past ten years concept-wise that hasn't been done by other manufacturers, and that is not a coincidence.

There was a time where they enjoyed a monopoly on certain products, but the industry has responded resoundingly.

Name which is the Intamin ride...

https://coasterforce.com/dev/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/AlpinaBlitzNigloland-1024x576.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/DC_Rivals_HyperCoaster's_Non-Inverted_Loop.jpg/1200px-DC_Rivals_HyperCoaster's_Non-Inverted_Loop.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fkvzow5.jpg

The answer?

None of them.

That's right. All three of them (Alpina Blitz, DC Rivals Hypercoaster, Helix respectively) are indeed Mack Rides.

It's obvious that their resemblances to certain Intamin coasters are striking, but what's worth noting that they receive fairly similar praise from enthusiasts as their Intamin counterparts do. (At least, judging by various Mitch-Hawker based polls - ElloCoaster, TPR etc.)

Helix checked in at #10 steel coaster in the world on the most recent TPR poll - two spots in front Taron at #12, five spots behind Maverick at #5.

Alpina Blitz (first one pictured) is essentially Mack's rendition of Intamin's mega-lite model. It was #39, behind the Mega-Lite model at #33.

DC Rivals Hypercoaster is a top ten steel coaster sitting at #8. For reference, Expedition GeForce ranked as #4 and Hyperion ranked as #24.

https://coasterpoll.com/results/2020-steel-results?page=1

Name pretty much any coaster that Intamin has made outside of the two stratacoasters + Red Force and there is a fairly close equivalent/substitute made by some other manufacturer.

So really I guess what I'm saying is, who needs Intamin anymore when there is Mack?

(As well as RMC, Gerstlauer, Vekoma, Premier, S&S etc. who have made their share of contributions as well in recent years)

And honestly, I don't even really see this an "either/or" situation between making GP or enthusiasts happy, when so many Mack Rides rank closely to Intamin rides of the similar concept in enthusiast polls anyway.

Most of us seem to be in agreement that a break from B&M is welcome, but we understand parks like the qualities that a B&M coaster provides.

Since Mack Rides are almost as reliable as B&Ms and have a (presumably) excellent safety record, I would say working with the them is a win/win/win.

--

Apologies to those who may be tired of the age-old manufacture debates, as even I acknowledge they often just end up with the same talking points we all know being reverberated over and over again...

But... I just couldn't resist.  

What can I say? It's one of my favorite topics, apparently...

b&m has not done anything new since oblivion@ alton towers a 100 years ago.

[silver2005]

The nature of this thread ad infinitum.

 

[BeastForever]

^^Right.

They've always been more in the business of refining previous concepts from other manufacturers rather than taking the first step.

Vekoma's Flyer, TOGO's Standup, Arrow's Hyper, and Intamin's Giga come to mind - all of which inspiring B&M to eventually create their own versions.

[SonofBaconator]

13 hours ago, coaster sally said:

b&m has not done anything new since oblivion@ alton towers a 100 years ago.

B&M doesn't see innovation as a way to stay in business. You don't see Mercedes Benz making muscle cars. There are companies who like to play if safe and there are companies who like to take risks. B&M is making their most money playing it safe and its paying off for them.

Intamin has a whole incident section on their Wikipedia page....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intamin

[coaster sally]

1 hour ago, SonofBaconator said:

B&M doesn't see innovation as a way to stay in business. You don't see Mercedes Benz making muscle cars. There are companies who like to play if safe and there are companies who like to take risks. B&M is making their most money playing it safe and its paying off for them.

Intamin has a whole incident section on their Wikipedia page....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intamin

actually they do, Mercedes makes some v12's.  B&M has less contracts for this year and next.  That's a fact.

[Benjamin22]

13 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

actually they do, Mercedes makes some v12's.  B&M has less contracts for this year and next.  That's a fact.

B&M isn’t some massive company that needs to sell 10 coasters a year to stay in business. Considering how much their rides cost I’m sure they only need to make only a few coasters a year to operate. Furthermore for all we know the company maybe only wants to make 3 or 4 coasters a year. I know in years past B&M had a pretty sizable waitlist.

[Maddog]

30 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

B&M has less contracts for this year and next.  That's a fact.

I would think at this point in time we cannot conclude too much from that metric...pandemic and all. 

[coaster sally]

1 hour ago, Maddog said:

I would think at this point in time we cannot conclude too much from that metric...pandemic and all. 

compared to Vekoma and Intamin.