Winterfest

[super7]

Carowinds just announced their Winterfest operating hours are going to be 11 AM until 7 PM. I have the feeling this is the end of the event there

 

They probably will not put up many lights for that early of a closing.  Additionally, a few years ago they tried operating from 3 PM until 11 PM and they went back to 5 to 10 the next year.   So it did not work.
 

Also, when Carowinds tried operating in the winter during the daytime, it did not work. They only did it one year.

The majority of the crowd for these events comes after dark. That includes Kings Island. I’m often surprised how crowded Winterfest is at Kings Island on cold nights the people of the area know how to bundle up and as long as it is dry, it seems like there is a good crowd  it less it rains.
 

The same issue of this event just regurgitating season passholders remains regardless of the operating hours     

Let’s hope Kings Island does not go down this route. I know they have fired a lot of their staff with knowledge of the parks and now decisions like this are being made.

[DonHelbig]

Carowinds cut some Fridays, too. 

The 11 a.m. to 7 p.m. hours can work if they market it and promote it right. 

[super7]

They also cut two weekends in November from the event.  It now only operates 21 days.  Last year there were around 29-30 operating days.  

[disco2000]

Fast Lane to bankruptcy

[CedarPointer]

Seems like an excuse to get rid of the event when, predictably, people are unhappy with this.

[DonHelbig]

Enjoy WinterFest this year. 

[Winterfestguy]

1 hour ago, DonHelbig said:

Enjoy WinterFest this year. 

Six Flags does not like winter events as evidenced by cutting 4 holiday events this year from parks. Definitely sadly looking like this will be the last year for KI Winterfest especially given Carowinds has just cut their nighttime hours from their original calendar this season. Hopefully, KI doesn’t follow this budget hourly cutting trend.

 

 

 

[DonHelbig]

1 minute ago, Winterfestguy said:

Six Flags does not like winter events as evidenced by cutting 4 holiday events this year from parks. Definitely sadly looking like this will be the last year for KI Winterfest especially given Carowinds has just cut their nighttime hours from their original calendar this season. Hopefully, KI doesn’t follow this budget hourly cutting trend.

 

 

 

Six Flags likes winter events but they have to cut expenses and that’s why you’re seeing events cancelled. It’s not what they want to do. It’s what they have to do right now.

[robintodd]

23 minutes ago, DonHelbig said:

Six Flags likes winter events but they have to cut expenses and that’s why you’re seeing events cancelled. It’s not what they want to do. It’s what they have to do right now.

With the amount of locals I would think there is enough attendance to keep Winterfest around.  Maybe not, we'll see.  I still feel like where as there will be Winterfest, this may be the last year for the Ice skating.

[disco2000]

1 minute ago, robintodd said:

With the amount of locals I would think there is enough attendance to keep Winterfest around.  Maybe not, we'll see.  I still feel like where as there will be Winterfest, this may be the last year for the Ice skating.

Sure, but when they added 20ish something days to the calendar for Winterfest and never adjusted the season pass price to accommodate those extra days, it is now taking your pass price and spreading it over more days.

The lights ain't free.  

If the daily admits have steadily dropped over time and it is mainly passholders and meal plans coming, how can that pay for all of Winterfest?

I have said here before Winterfest doesn't make as much as people think and would be surprised if it stuck around longer than the original version. 

One bad winter and it is money loser.

I think they would be more inclined to cancel Winterfest and extend the season thru November.  That way if a weekend sucks, they just don't open or close early and haven't spent a lot of money, whereas a bad winter after spending all the time and money to put up the lights can't afford to close a weekend or early. 

[DonHelbig]

9 minutes ago, robintodd said:

With the amount of locals I would think there is enough attendance to keep Winterfest around.  Maybe not, we'll see.  I still feel like where as there will be Winterfest, this may be the last year for the Ice skating.

A lot of locals who have a season pass, drink plan, dining plan that aren’t spending any additional money to visit the park during WinterFest. 

[super7]

I believe that the problem with these Christmas events at Six Flags and Cedar Fair is the same problem that is causing cost cuts all year long across the company that has actively chased off customers year-round
 

They sell these cheap season passes, especially the cheap meal plans and people are able to attend the park all year and average their cost per visit down to $25 or so. Including meals.  When they added the season meal plans, it just gave people the ability not to spend money on each visit.
 

When Winterfest was added, the season pass price did not increase significantly.   Now with these cheap season passes, the price actually went down. So there is no motivation for them in the short run to extend the operating season to include these events because they are just regurgitating season passholders and giving them more meals, etc.

Plus, there’s the incompetence of this company that only allows operations when is school is out. That’s because their attractions are mainly for children. Other more successful holiday events, such as Dollywood and Busch Gardens have significantly more operating days on the Christmas schedule.    It’s expensive to put all these lights up for just 20 some days of operation.

also, the shorter hours of this event allow one time customers not to spend money in the park. It’s easy to eat elsewhere and not pay 20 some dollars for a mediocre quality meal.  Parks like Dollywood and Busch Gardens tend to have longer operating days for this event, which encourages more in spending.

 

Back in the beginning, Winterfest unlimited admission, should have  been an add-on to the season pass in my opinion.   The meal plan should’ve never been implemented to begin with because season passes are designed to encourage spending on every visiit. But the meal plan definitely shoukd have ended at Labor Day. 

 

I know if Winterfest goes away at Kings Island I am absolutely done buying season passes from this company.    It’s the only thing that’s kept me renewing my season pass through all of this other awful cost cutting and reduced customer experience.   

this makes me sad because the Winterfest events were my favorite events of all the theme parks in this region because of the Christmas lights.   It had the most immersive lights in the mature trees, on the shrubs, on the centerpiece, tower, etc.   Carowinds was my first personal favorite because they had about twice as many lights in each tree as Kings Island and even more trees with lights in them. It appears that’s going away this year.

 

Cutting out this event may save them a few bucks in the short run, but like all their other cost cutting it’s going to chase off customers in the long run IMO.  

[disco2000]

3 minutes ago, super7 said:

I believe that the problem with these Christmas events at Six Flags and Cedar Fair is the same problem that is causing cost cuts all year long across the company. 
 

They sell these cheap season passes, especially the cheap meal plans and people are able to attend the park all year and average their cost per visit down to $25 or so. Including meals.  When they added the season meal plans, it just gave people the ability not to spend money on each visit.
 

When Winterfest was added, the season pass price did not increase significantly.   Now with these cheap season passes, the price actually went down. So there is no motivation for them in the short run to extend the operating season to include these events because they are just regurgitating season passholders and giving them more meals, etc.

Plus, there’s the incompetence of this company that only allows operations when is school is out. That’s because their attractions are mainly for children. Other more successful holiday events, such as Dollywood and Busch Gardens have significantly more operating days on the Christmas schedule.    It’s expensive to put all these lights up for just 20 some days of operation.

Back in the beginning, Winterfest unlimited admission, should have  been an add-on to the season pass in my opinion.   The meal plan should’ve never been implemented to begin with because season passes are designed to encourage spending on every visiit. But the meal plan definitely shoukd have ended at Labor Day. 
 

I know if Winterfest goes away at Kings Island I am absolutely done buying season passes from this company.    It’s the only thing that’s kept me renewing my season pass through all of this other awful cost cutting and reduced customer experience.   
 

Cutting out this event may save them a few bucks in the short run, but like all their other cost cutting it’s going to chase off customers in the long run IMO.  

Don't give them any ideas LOL.

Imagine the comments if they now made Winterfest an add-on or meal and drink plans not valid after Labor Day.

Sadly Six has already done the Labor Day thing to meal plans in the past, so I could see that happen.

[super7]

8 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

Don't give them any ideas LOL.

Imagine the comments if they now made Winterfest an add-on or meal and drink plans not valid after Labor Day.

Sadly Six has already done the Labor Day thing to meal plans in the past, so I could see that happen.

Oh, I’m not saying they should do it now.  That would be an absolute disaster. Once you give customer something you can’t take it away easily.

I was saying they should have done that in the beginning. I remember at Busch Gardens before they started year-round. Memberships Christmas town was an additional $35 for unlimited admission on a season pass.   And Busch was able to  eliminate their meal plans after experimenting for one or two years.

It’s the same thing with these ridiculous meal plans.  And I mean ridiculous in a business sense. They are great for the customer. Six Flags tried to take them away when Bassoul took over and it resulted in a huge drop in attendance that is still continuing   at this point they are so engrained in the customers that it will be impossible for Six Flags to take them away successfully  

I don’t believe there’s any hope for this company other than bankruptcy. They have dug their ditches too deep with the way they have sold season passes. If they raise prices, they lose customers if they continue the same path, they lose customers because the experience will continue to deteriorate

[robintodd]

3 hours ago, DonHelbig said:

A lot of locals who have a season pass, drink plan, dining plan that aren’t spending any additional money to visit the park during WinterFest. 

I actually saw qutie a few people skating last year, along with cookies, etc.  I find myself spending more now thatn ever and I have all 3.

[Losantiville Mining Co.]

I think closing off more of the park during Winterfest would be much better than getting rid of it entirely. As much as I'd miss those December rides on the antique cars it might be worth whatever money it'd save to close off the back of Coney Mall, past the entrance to Area 72; the back half of Rivertown, past the KI&MV RR station; and all of Action Zone. Frankly, I'd think they could go as far as closing off all of Coney Mall provided Mystic Timbers stays operating for the event. They could move any of the displaced shows up to the front of the park and put them in the other locations as well. Some of you may remember that Winterfest 2.0 in 2005 only used International Street, Oktoberfest, Hanna-Barbera Land, and Rivertown. I'll post the 2005 map from KIC below as a visual. Does anyone know where I can find any of the maps from Winterfest 1.0? 

Getting rid of the ice skating would leave a gaping hole at the front of the park. I doubt they'd find a good way to replace the revenue it generates, nor would they be able to make the Royal Fountain look good without the rink in it. They'd have to turn it into the world's largest holiday themed seating area for it to not just sit dormant. 

 

I believe Carowinds cutting/shifting their Winterfest hours could just be a (bad) one-year test from Six Flags. There's also all of the people from SFOG and Kings Dominion that Six Flags is trying to find out how far they'll travel for a holiday event. I doubt many families will make the trek out of state. Fiesta Texas is apparently getting some new decorations for their Holiday in the Park this year: I wonder which park's cancelled event those are coming from.

[Losantiville Mining Co.]

I'll also post this image I found of a Carowinds' 2005 Winterfest map to show what that looked like. 

Photo: CarowindsFansOnly on Facebook.

[disco2000]

38 minutes ago, robintodd said:

I actually saw qutie a few people skating last year, along with cookies, etc.  I find myself spending more now thatn ever and I have all 3.

Sure, and I see people pay for parking, but we never see the potholes fixed

Putting on Winterfest is a major expense for 20 something days.

[brenthodge]

4 hours ago, DonHelbig said:

Six Flags likes winter events but they have to cut expenses and that’s why you’re seeing events cancelled. It’s not what they want to do. It’s what they have to do right now.

Thank you. People really aren’t grasping basic business and how bad the bleeding is right now. 

[brenthodge]

3 hours ago, super7 said:

Back in the beginning, Winterfest unlimited admission, should have  been an add-on to the season pass in my opinion.   The meal plan should’ve never been implemented to begin with because season passes are designed to encourage spending on every visiit. But the meal plan definitely shoukd have ended at Labor Day. 

Yes to both. I admit I take advantage of both of those, but would willingly give them up if it meant keeping a quality event. 

[DonHelbig]

1 hour ago, robintodd said:

I actually saw qutie a few people skating last year, along with cookies, etc.  I find myself spending more now thatn ever and I have all 3.

Some do but not the majority of Passholders. It doesn’t make the money you think it does. 

[super7]

24 minutes ago, brenthodge said:

Thank you. People really aren’t grasping basic business and how bad the bleeding is right now. 

There are several reasons at this business is bleeding right now.  All of them have been caused by mismanagement. But one of them is because they are actively chasing off customers by cost cutting  that has negatively affected the customer experience.   So their solution is to keep on cutting, reducing the and keep on losing attendance……

Unfortunately, like I said before there’s no way out for this company other than bankruptcy at this point.   Maybe a few of the better parks will get sold off to ownership that can properly manage them and not become housing or warehouses

[Losantiville Mining Co.]

Hopefully if they're going to willingly choose the bankruptcy route they'll find a way to make it as quick and painless as possible. I have to wonder which parks would actually be retained by a post-bankruptcy Six Flags — if it exists by the end of all of this.

Maybe the next CEO will be able to lead and manage the company better, or at least be smarter about where to make needed cuts and redirect investments. 

Any of the better parks that get closed and sold for their land will be a massive tragedy in the world of family entertainment. The guests of the ones that get sold to better-managed companies will need to deal with much higher pass prices and even more nickel-and-diming. 

[Winterfestguy]

Carowinds quietly removed the parade from their Winterfest line up, changed to daytime hours, and rumors of no ice skating there as well. Wonder when or if KI will make the same announcement? The puzzle pieces start coming into focus for KI as no Tinkers means one less show and maybe an empty theater as well. Enjoy what’s left as KI Winterfest 3.0 as it likely comes to a sudden end this season. 

[disco2000]

But But But people said it is always crowded and would never leave....

[super7]

It was usually crowded.  Only Cedar Fair mismanagement could pull crowds like that and not make money.

[Outdoor Man]

For what it's worth, adjusting the hours at Carowinds may not be as off-base as you may think. First, the daytime temperature averages 52-56'ish during the day in December. Not as many NC/SC residents like going out in 30-something temps at night like in Cincinnati. Secondly, it isn't daylight at at 9pm in December like it is in the summer. Sunset in December is similar to Cincinnati: 5:15pm. so, if they close at 7.... that's almost 2 hours of nighttime lights.  and more daytime "heat" for ride riders...

 

[Losantiville Mining Co.]

12 hours ago, Winterfestguy said:

Carowinds quietly removed the parade from their Winterfest line up, changed to daytime hours, and rumors of no ice skating there as well. Wonder when or if KI will make the same announcement? The puzzle pieces start coming into focus for KI as no Tinkers means one less show and maybe an empty theater as well. Enjoy what’s left as KI Winterfest 3.0 as it likely comes to a sudden end this season. 

Carowinds removing their ice skating would probably not be as devastating as Kings Island removing theirs would be. While it brings in money for that park, the warmer temperatures may affect the ice quality more than it does at KI and theirs is not as centrally located as Kings Island's is. They also paved over that area so it could either be used for more festival space (as it is now) or as an ice skating rink if they decide removing it was a bad idea. 

Winterfest may not be the money maker everyone thinks it is, but it is a beloved season at Kings Island. I believe removing some of its quintessential activities or ending the event entirely at Kings Island would result in much greater backlash than we've seen with all of the new changes to Haunt.

[BoddaH1994]

I just hope that when they cancel Winterfest at the 11th hour in 2026 to "focus on the core Spring and Summer seasons," people flood the park with questions about how cancelling Winterfest will add value to their Spring and Summer seasons to offset the loss of Winterfest. Not just words. Examples. 

Of course, I'm sure there will be certain shills that will defend the park to the bitter end for pulling the event after selling you your 2027 pass. Spoiler alert: it's the same ones who keep quoting the "gotcha" language in the fine print when people express (what I think is valid) frustration for charging extra for the Haunt stuff when they never did in the past... in exchange for VIP parking and access to media days. 

Someone correctly alluded above— if you can pack tens of thousands of people into a single place during the Christmas season and can't find a way to make money off them, then you shouldn't be working in a serious role in the theme park industry. You should be bagging groceries. 

[CedarPointer]

18 hours ago, BoddaH1994 said:

I just hope that when they cancel Winterfest at the 11th hour in 2026 to "focus on the core Spring and Summer seasons," people flood the park with questions about how cancelling Winterfest will add value to their Spring and Summer seasons to offset the loss of Winterfest. Not just words. Examples. 

Of course, I'm sure there will be certain shills that will defend the park to the bitter end for pulling the event after selling you your 2027 pass. Spoiler alert: it's the same ones who keep quoting the "gotcha" language in the fine print when people express (what I think is valid) frustration for charging extra for the Haunt stuff when they never did in the past... in exchange for VIP parking and access to media days. 

Someone correctly alluded above— if you can pack tens of thousands of people into a single place during the Christmas season and can't find a way to make money off them, then you shouldn't be working in a serious role in the theme park industry. You should be bagging groceries. 

I think the thing with all of this is, who can justify dropping money on anything at Six Flags when they've proven that they can and will change the rules on you whenever they please? I can't imagine dropping a grand on an All Season Fast Lane when, for all you know, you won't be able to use it on any coasters without paying an extra $10 per visit for your Coasters and More Access Pass. They blew through decades worth of goodwill with their most loyal customers in a desperate attempt to make a quick buck. And it's a lot harder to earn goodwill and good word of mouth than it is to lose it.