Shaggy

I wouldn't necessarily jump to any ride conclusions...

I believe there were "gazebos" on stage right and left. You can vaguely see them in the concept picture of "World Cabaret" performers in my first reply above.

For posterity, here's grainy concept art for the Festhaus, as well as a pic of how it actually looked when it was first built. Trivia: For 1983, the existing Beirgarten was remodeled and the bridge that extended over the Octoberfest pond was added - as to drive traffic between the two venues.

As far as the original shows at the Festhaus... here are some Grainy print/ad images... The first two are of "World of Christmas" - the first show to play the Festhaus during Winterfest 1982. The third is of "World Cabaret" that played the 1983 spring/summer/fall season.

The levitating Houdelini figure was supported via an armature brace on his back just like the usher as you described. That brace extended to hydraulic unit that raised and lowered him while veering left to right. His entire body didn't move a tremendous amount but enough to give the illusion of floating. If memory serves me, his arms were outstretched, holding his cape ends in each hand. It was a full-bodied figure, but as you suggested his bottom half was likely nothing more than a fiberglass shell to hold the shape of legs.

Gemini serves the purpose of being a decent size "family" coaster. Although not originally opened (or promoted) as such, it is not daunting. IMO - the newer coasters at CP have grown to a disproportionate size that alienates a sector of younger, and less brave riders. Gemini is high capacity, and still a terrifically fun ride. Its actually a dont-miss for me when I go to CP. I'd hate to see it go. For posterity, I have to chuckle when I read things like "CF would never put a _____ in their flagship park..." Only because I can remember back in the day, the exact same thing was posted by many enthusiasts when the rumor mill began speculating that CP was looking at an Intamin Impulse! Never say never ;-)

Good example! I always use the "car windshield" explanation. Put something on your dashboard and then look at the windshield... the item appears as a transparent reflection. Going by memory... In the peppers ghost scene the characters included... 2 audience members in an upper seating box stage right. They turned and looked at the box next to them when Garbanzo landed in it. Houdelini was levitating above stage right. I believe Bosco was on lower stage right. Hilda was center stage on top of a large "castle tower" Garbanzo slid in and out of a large cannon on stage left. He was "shot" across the scene appearing in a viewing box on stage right. Maestro was playing an organ in the "orchestra pit" lower center stage. Lionel Burymore was on stage left. There were 2 more audience members in an upper seating box stage left. There was another audience member sitting on the railing of the farthest upper level box stage left. (I originally remembered him as Willard, but likely not.) Edit - If memory serves me, Willard Warbler did not appear in the scene... but I could be wrong.

LOL. The question is accurate. The character flipping the lights/using a flashlight, although not named afaik, was not an usher. (I called him a janitor in the quiz, but he could have also been referred to as a stagehand I guess.) The Usher(s) wore red and simply pointed, this guy was dressed differently and held a flashlight in his right hand, which he shined on buggies as they passed by. ;-) Photos below... courtesy DAFE... show the difference. The pic cuts off the flashlight.

Lol - That was my own post/quiz from many many moons ago probably before many KIC posters were even born.

The best Camp Snoopy, by far, is the original at Knotts Berry Farm. What makes the version at Knotts so great is that it is heavily saturated with big full trees, and the overall theme is woodsy (camp) and rustic. Its been overhauled a number of times - but the current version is superb. If KI must stick with the Snoopy theme, I too would love it if KI took the time to do a similar overhaul to their current kids area. It would require KI to completely gut the entire area, but if they did... it would be spectacular. Also, replicating the theme at Knotts would definitely compliment the now waning Rivertown theme... and could easily be blended to make the two areas cohesive and complimentary. Finally, Boo Blasters is crying out... no, SCREAMING... for a Snoopy themed dark ride.

Tick tock, tick tock. Happy New Year.

They’re reporting the Raptor part, but that’s not all I was referring to.

Ed Hart doesn't care for coasters at all... well, riding them, that is. ;-) He liked what they did to help drum attendance. However, as widely reported, KK did cancel their RMC Raptor. I can confirm they were going to get one. However, from what I've been told, there's a major jaw-dropping change brewing at the park that circumvented. Time will tell, stay tuned.

There's been a long-standing rumor that one car from "The Bat" survived and is in the personal collection of someone formerly affiliated with the park. However I've never personally seen any proof. I would assume the other cars were all scrapped or taken by Arrow back to their plant in Utah when they removed the coaster. For a few seasons, remnants of the brake fins & shocks were stored in a crate in the bottom floor of the Vortex station building. The crate was later pulled out (circa mid-late 1990's) from under the building and left visible in the empty queue area underneath the station. I personally saw the crate several times, but could not see into it well enough to identify if it was actually parts from "The Bat." The "heads" from the front of the cars were removed and sold at auction by the park. At least 3... that I know of... are still in the hands of collectors.

The park still does internal, employee-only, property auctions/sales. Not sure if they are annual, or season ending, but they do still happen.

If its anything like the inversions on RMC Raptors it will be a great ride. Generally, I'm not an "inversion guy" per-say, but the ones on WWGL were great. It does lack a significant/large drop... which is what made Wonder Woman at SFFT surprisingly intense when I rode.

I have followed the legacy of "The Bat" ever since I saw it operate on my first trip to KI as a kid. I seemingly learn more about it every few months. Here's what I've been able to put together re: the original topic of this thread... As far as any information I've ever seen, the operational design for "The Bat" at Kings Island was never seriously intended to have inversions. The design in question could likely be an early layout concept presented to the park in when they first held serious meetings with Arrow about the idea. Arrow had been developing the concept of the suspended coaster as early as 1977 - 4 years prior to "The Bat" opening. That same year, the "Screamin Demon" premiered at KI - giving KI their first "large" steel coaster (albeit a shuttle.) Its highly likely that, at the time the park was investing in "Screamin Demon", they saw Arrow's initial designs for the suspended. By 1978, the documentary "America Screams" showed the public the very first concepts of the suspended prototypes. There was a working model, with an inversion... and a full scale, ridable coaster without an inversion. Its no secret that KI began eying another coaster install in 1978 - before they even finished building "The Beast." By then, quite a few advancements had been made in steel coaster technology. Arrow had grand success - loopers and shuttles were popping up all over the country. KI already had an Arrow looper (albeit a shuttle) and knowing the impending success they'd have with "The Beast" they obviously wanted (and felt pressure to) follow it with something groundbreaking. Knowing the manufacturer was the leader in new coaster technology (at the time), they likely had kept tabs on the suspended coaster that Arrow had yet to sell. Walt Davis, Kings Island's Director of Park Operation at the time went to Arrow's plant in 1978 where he rode the first prototype and initiated design meetings with Arrow about bringing the concept to KI. I was actually able to check with a source I have that was affiliated with Arrow at the time of "The Bat" and they clarified a few things for me. Out of respect, I am keeping the source confidential. I asked about the 2nd prototype that included an inversion. I was told that Arrow did test the possibility of incorporating inversions on their suspended coaster design, but that never made it past that stage. They said the test track that was built - with the inversion - never ran with more than a string of train chassis. (To their knowledge.) They did not know the specifics of the plans seen in Orion's queue specifically, but said they were likely a part of the initial "idea" designs Arrow presented KI in the earliest stages of development. Basically a "here's our options for that area." It took over 18 months for the design and engineering to be finalized... before construction began.. so that likely dates those plans to early 1979 at the latest. The person I spoke with elaborated a bit about the issues Arrow faced with the ride. Much has been made of the issues "The Bat" had with the unbanked track, the braking system, the overswing etc. But apparently MAJOR concerns involved the strain on the chassis themselves. We all know that on May 21st in 1982, "The Bat" abruptly shut down mid-operation due to what the park would only explain as a "mechanical malfunction." But I now know that the chassis on car #2 and #3 cracked while riders were on board halting the train at the bottom of lift #2. This became a HUGE safety concern for the park, especially because it endangered riders, and apparently they were incensed with Arrow. It was during the 1982 shutdown that Arrow reworked the design of some of the supports, supplied new train chassis, and added multiple shocks to absorb the stress etc etc etc - all at their cost. Of course "The Bat" was reopened in 1983, but continued to literally tear itself apart. I was told that after the final closure, Kings Island forced Arrow to foot the bill and remove it. Its been rumored that there was some sort of an "agreement" meant as good will between Arrow and KI that ultimately resulted in Vortex being built... but I've never personally heard/seen proof of that. This ultimately put Arrow into a state of financial ruin and the company fired half the staff. Walt Davis, who had overseen the project for KI - left after the debacle. He went on to plan and oversee "The Beach" and the US division of Togo. I'm not sure the date in which the 2nd prototype was built at the plant - its likely it was being done at the same time they were developing/building "The Bat" as it was a constantly evolving process. I know the original source of the picture in question - but not its date. Its is obvious that it was prior to their obvious need to bank the track. I hope to reach out to them soon to date the picture. Arrow survived, of course, but the concept of the inversions didn't. Its fun to see a video of what the ride would have looked/felt like with inversions - I enjoyed watching it. But it was never meant to operate that way.

That area of Kennywood is actually one of the most pleasant with its 'grove like" feel and carousel. I hope they keep it that way. Sad to see some older, traditional rides bite the dust. The good news is that they updated "The Old Mill" this season. The Kangaroo is a tough loss...

I haven't read the entire thread, but will pipe in to simply state that I believe Adventure Express has had portions of track replaced in the past. The memory is blurry, but I seem to recall it being the 1998 off season when what appeared to be replacement track for AE appeared in the parking lot. Saw it with my very own eyes. I cant say for sure where along the course the replacement could have been made - however I've long suspected it was at the start of the ride, where the "mist" effect was located. I believe that very same season, the mist was discontinued and has never returned afaik. The piece(s) I saw, if they were indeed AE track, weren't very long - maybe only 10 feet or so.

He always does a great job. Thanks for the history flash-back, and the rare pics Kyle!

I'd kill to have that Mustang from this ride for posterity.

Speaking of Kill Mart/the old Skeeball building. Out of curiosity, does KI still have Skeeball in any of the arcades? Its been at least 20 years since I've even been in one of the arcades at KI. It was a HUGE deal (once upon a time) at KI. You used have to wait in line to play sometimes. Side note - if they were ever to bring back a Fascintation Parlor, I'd never want to leave. For old schoolers, such as me, that game was more fun than I can even describe. There's VERY few left... but is, by far, my favorite "game" that I ever played at a park. Also, most parks have eliminated shooting galleries - which also used to draw a crowd. I've never understood why those sorts of things disappeared from KI - technology I guess - but they were very "activity and amusement" driven games that always drew people...and their money.

Tangent - There is an old 1800's cemetery on my Maternal Grandparents farmland. Many/most graves in that portion of the south were covered with concrete or stone slabs. I once asked "why?" as a kid and was told it was to keep the coffins/bodies from raising out of the ground if it got too saturated. (Its very close to the ocean, so the water table is high.) As a kid, whenever me and my cousins would play outside, we were warned by our family to "stay away out of respect for the people lying there." That combined with the vivid childhood thought of seeing a casket raising out of the ground always made me scared of cemeteries in general. Knowing there were bodies of people that had been laying there for 100+ years didn't help any. However, I always thought to myself... why is it still there? No one every visits those graves, or knows who the people are. (My cousins and I used to fight over who had to go retrieve any baseballs that accidentally landed in the cemetery.) Here's a google shot of my Grandparents former house and the cemetery behind it. Their house is the one at the top of the pic, and the graves are in the triangular shaped area in the center. BTW - the cemetery is still maintained by a local church. As time passed, I'm no longer timid of cemeteries, but I still wonder what will become of them 100, 200 years from now. I mean, with so many records and recorded histories, they don't really serve a purpose as a historical marker anymore - unless its a famous person. I visited Savannah, GA about 10 years ago and during a tour there we were told that many of the streets in Savannah were paved over portions of graveyards/cemeteries there.

Because of the outrageous scalping issues they've faced, Disney has now instituted MerchPass on ShopDisney.com. The stores must now adhere to a "lottery" system when exclusives are released at retail. Ticketmaster has done the same with Verified fan and virtual queing. I have a very distinct opinion on this subject, since I've spent the past 25 years in an industry that fights scalping everyday. But, frankly, this board is already waaaaay to full of people's opinions, and virtually Every.Single.Thread becomes a disagreement or argument anymore. I will say, KI did a really good thing. And those of us that got a souvenir are lucky to have one. Most parks would have never given it a second thought. KI knew just how much Vortex meant to its fans... that's why the first track that was removed prior to demolition was the section ultimately used for these keepsakes. I also have heard that there's more to come as far as preservation of a piece of Vortex track. I applaud them for understanding Vortex's place in the park's history, preserving a part of it, and putting a little bit of that history in the hands of those that will cherish it.

I remember park Reps spoke at an ACE event during the Paramount years and revealed they were restricted from displaying certain moving images on the (then) new sign. For instance, they could not show ride footage and/or commercials. The issue was raised based on the concerns that local authorities (I assume ODOT) had with it affecting traffic flow. I would assume that still plays into what they show, and the time each image spends on the screen.