Shaggy

I certainly am not versed on formal requirements of space left around large power lines, but its obvious KI has had, or chosen, to leave ample. But even without the power line issue, they'd probably have to get creative with a large expansion. They definitely have room to expand, but in order to really add real estate and size, would likely need to once again re-route the employee entrance/drive. I would suspect they'd opt to replace some of the aging slides in the oldest section first though. Some of those slides have been there for over 30 years. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the water park receive an upgrade or expansion in coming seasons.

I have always loved Schwarzkopf coasters. Shockwave at Six Flags Over Texas, and Mindbender at Six Flags Over Georgia are two HIGHLY underrated coasters (and personal favorites.) Also, Revolution (pre and post shoulder restraints), SuperDooperLooper, Montezoomas Revenge and Whizzer are dont misses at their respective parks.) As a kid growing up in Virginia, I was spoiled... I had BGW's Glissade and Wildkat coasters as well as Kings Dominion's King Cobra shuttle loop to enjoy year after year. I've wondered if KI officials (Dave Focke) might have visited the Mindbender at West Edmonton mall when it opened in 1985 as they courted proposals for the forthcoming new coaster. Chances are, they (he) might have. Unfortunately just a year later - June 1986 - the Mindbender suffered a HORRIFIC accident. Ultimately a design flaw by Schwarzkopf and poor maintenance were found as the cause. I expect, if KI had seriously considered a Schwarzkopf, they probably breathed a sigh of relief that they had not suffered such an incident. BTW - trivia - Wener Stengel was involved with the overall design of most of the Schwarzkopf coasters - including Mindbender. He ultimately worked with KI.... on Son of Beast. I've always "heard" he was/is an extremist - pushing for taller, faster, more extreme... yet I also have been told he would not ride coasters. LOL! (But in fairness, thats true of many coaster designers & engineers... Ron Toomer, Al Collins and, I believe, John Allen.)

I wondered the same thing. I have never seen any official blueprints or renderings of the "proposed" coaster. So I think this layout is just a fan-based conception - nothing more.

I've never seen it officially confirmed that KI was given any sort of a "discount" for Vortex. Its long been a rumor, and could be true, but I personally have never seen it substantiated. If anyone has printed material or quotes from park officials, I'd love to see it. I think the reason KI chose to go with Arrow was likely multi-tiered. - KI specifically wanted a high-thrill coaster with loops. Most of the other manufacturers proposals were deemed too tame. - Arrow had perfected the multi-inversion steel coaster by then. - I believe there had been a management change at Arrow since "The Bat" had been built, Ron Toomer was now in charge and he was well respected. - Arrow had a long-running, successful relationship with KI before The Bat. Many of the parks rides... Screamin Demon, KCKC, Enchanted Voyage boats (I believe) etc etc etc... were Arrow products. - The Arrow multi-loopers were things of beauty and awe. I would suspect park officials were sold on something that would look immense, be HIGHLY marketable, and be a noteworthy use of the land. Not to mention, IMO, it was the perfect "OOOOH AHHHHH replacement" following the embarrassing failure of The Bat. The installation of The Bat was, what I understand to be, a development agreement between Arrow and KI. Essentially, KI provided the land and funding for Arrow to flesh out their Suspended coaster concept. Both the park and Arrow knew it was a prototype, and would require "tweaking." However they obviously never expected the amount of issues and downtime it experienced. Finally, TMK, the relationship with Arrow never "soured." Again, I've heard that as a long-standing rumor, but never had it confirmed by anyone at the park. Did the park ever file lawsuit against Arrow? Essentially, "The Bat's" development was what I percieve to be the same situation that PGA entered with Vekoma to develop Stealth in the late 1990/early 2000's. Ultimately most of the operational consistency "kinks" were able to be worked out with Stealth... however it didn't suffer from as many severe engineering flaws that The Bat did. The Bat was ahead of its time, unfortunately. But ultimately the success of the suspended coasters and (IMO) inverted coasters that followed all have The Bat to thank.

AFAIK Kings Island's Flying Eagles, while located at at Coney (called Flying Skooters), had their their original tubs scrapped/overhauled/rebuilt and replaced. The KI attraction had already received a major alteration before it was ever transplanted. Heck, even Kings Island's Grand Carousel has horses that are not original to it. I was also once "told" (you know how that goes) that the Scrambler has had more than one major overhaul - including seat/car replacement. It could be (and has been) argued that the Post article didn't exactly describe the ride in question here. Sounds like it, but also not. An Octopus and Monster are two entirely different rides, and neither IMO have gondolas "suspended" from the arms. The other oddity is that it ran in a paper at the end of the season... and just a few weeks later the park announced the HB overhaul for '82. None of it really "adds" up. That's why I've never particularly given it much merit - because it doesn't make sense. Maybe the writer asked why the ride was missing, and was given that info? Maybe the intention was to replace it? Maybe the intention was to add a similar ride in addition to it? Maybe the person(s) they spoke to were incorrect, or said something entirely different. Maybe the writer didn't pay attention, or got information confused. Who knows? Hence my earlier response - couldn't tell ya. I appreciate Ty's clarification of the timeline of events regarding Fury - very thorough. I personally always appreciate Ty's posts. My particular sentiments about the blog were stated because I very much appreciate that the Park - in this case, Chad - is taking the time to invest in the history. They are doing a great job of it. Prior Administration at the park actually strove to ignore, hide and destroy that history. I'm always personally very happy that they are taking the time to care.

I can only speak for myself, but here is where my through process stands. Whenever I have purchased something in advance - or taken part in an installment plan - I viewed it as a "contract" between buyer and seller. I am paying for goods, or for a "product", that is forthcoming. If I do not pay, or complete my payments that would break the contract. Same is true if the product is not supplied as promised - it negates the contract. In this case, the "product" is essentially a fluctuating license to enter and use the park's facilities for a time period. For now, said time period is indefinitely on hold for reasons beyond anyone's control. So that leaves the "contract" in limbo. There are a lot of unseen challenges that can greatly affect a business' timeline - how and when they do things. I work in a business that is pretty similar to KI in terms of product. The impact of the virus has sent us reeling, and essentially scrambling to uphold our end of the "contract" with our buyers without collapsing the financial stability of the company. At this point, I am not sure we will survive this... and how we "react" to the situation will greatly affect the company's longevity. I have no doubt that Kings Island has every intention to uphold their end of the contract - after all, they are a guest driven business. However until a firm calendar can be set, their hands are likely tied as to the options they may offer ALL buyers simultaneously. Unless they can offer those same options to everyone, then they cannot move forward with a solution. I certainly understand this virus has sent many previously financially stable households into a tailspin - including mine. (Yes, I have personally taken a large hit.) However, I still intend to hold up my end of the "contract" that I made with Kings Island and will adjust to whatever options they offer me in due time. I view it in terms of my paying towards my future enjoyment. That gives me something to look forward to in these horrific times. Fact is, whenever this nightmare ends, and things are once again (knock wood) safe, I hope to immediately go to Kings Island and celebrate life, fun and the outdoors like I never have been before. In the meantime, I'm primarily focused on the health and safety of those I love and cherish - as well as my own. I am man enough to admit that I am as scared as I've ever been - and I have seen A LOT in my nearly 50 years. I am devastated that this is happening to our world, and crushed at the thought of all those affected. I pray very hard every day, multiple times a day, that this will be lifted. I encourage others to do the same - pray, encourage, and find something to lift your spirit and keep you moving forward. And for God's sake, stay home. Shaggy

Didn't write it. Couldn't tell ya. Again, kudos to Chad for the great piece of KI history and clarification. Keep 'em coming KI!

I agree. I love that the long-floating false claim that the original was replaced has been cleared up. Kudos to Chad - great job!

Windjammer spent more time closed than open. If someone farted while riding, it would valley. I didn't find the New York New York coaster unbearable, but I just rode once and said "check!"

When I was there, there was literally no physical seat in the rear row of the last car - it was roped off! And I dont recall the first drop being that "Big" LOL!

The 2 specific types of coasters (that the park has ever publicly discussed) "proposed" for Vortex's site prior to KI choosing Arrow were:. A Mack bobsled - that ended up being installed at Kings Dominion as Avalanche. A Togo "looping mouse" that has always been rumored to have become the infamous Windjammer at Knotts. I've never had the other "types" officially confirmed. But I know most of the proposals were deemed too "tame." One could deduce from that article that the other proposals may have come from firms including Intamin (Switzerland) or Schwarkopf. FYI - guests were surveyed at the front of the park back around 1983-84 on what they wanted the park to add. I actually recall being asked my feelings about water rides by someone with a clipboard at the front gate when I went with my family in those years. Ultimately, White Water Canyon must have surveyed high - so it took precedence over the coaster. I've always wondered what *could* have taken "The Bat's" place had WWC not been "bumped up." I think it goes without saying that by the mid 1980s, the park saw the writing on the wall with the "Screamin' Demon." Couple that with the loss of "The Bat" and the fact that looping coasters were very much in vogue and it was pretty clear what the park needed at the time - and "voila" Vortex was born.

Liberty University = Jerry Falwell. He only wants them back for the revenue. He's a money gobbler, not concerned about actual welfare of people, like every other Televangelist. He's nothing more than a snake oil salesmen in a tailored suit - a faith healer that tricks people into thinking they are safe by praying alone.

I think that is pretty much what everyone is wondering right now.

Riding Mean Streak didn't bother me as much as it did some, but it wasn't one I ever felt the need to ride when I was at CP. I definitely can see where people hated it. I always avoided a wheel seat, so that helped. That having been said... Once while riding MS - I got the bottom side of my upper arm pinched between the wood on the side of the car and the metal trim they had on the edges. See the picture below - I circled what I am talking about.) Good Lord that hurt, and left me with a horrible pinch bruise. I thought I was going to bleed all over the place.

Even if we see a miraculous downturn in infection rates before June - I’d now be surprised to see the park open then. There are many other factors that will affect how this plays out. First, this will instill a fear of congregation in many people for a while. I know that even if you told me it were safe tomorrow, I’d probably still continue to isolate and avoid crowds until I formed my own peace of mind. Second, there’s an entire hire/rehire/training period to think about. This is costing the park precious time to be prepping staff. If given a green light to open by June - they still have to beef up personnel. That could take weeks. Granted they’ll probably have a larger volume to pull from for hires if the terrible projections of unemployment come true. Third, there’s going to be a large change in spending of discretionary income. Mark my words, going forward after things (knock wood) Improve, people will be much more selective as to where they spend their money. Typically entertainment is first non-essential to bite the dust. Fourth, the park - like any other business - has an extremely large overhead. To circumvent losses, they will cut spending in as many places as possible. Ordering merchandise, food supplies, prizes, equipment, uniforms are the tip of the iceberg and I’m willing to bet have been placed on hold. Even things like office supplies or cutting electrical use in non essential spaces come into play. If those things come to a screeching halt, then it delays preparing the park to open at any given time. Theres more, and I could go on and on. But the bottom line is (as much as it pains me to say this) I’d advise most here to emotionally prepare to not see the inside of our beloved park for quite some time. I hope that I am completely wrong, but my personal experience (and current work situation) dictates that this will be a lengthy delay. What I specifically hope is that everyone on these boards shows some decorum should there be an extended delay in opening, even after the virus has subsided. If it takes weeks, months, a year before the park opens then everyone should understand it’s due to the ramifications of a situation that is completely out of our hands - and theirs. My heart breaks for everyone this touches. Especially those whose personal welfare and income depend on it. I am a praying daily for an end to this - it’s truly a nightmare on all sides.

To be positive for a moment - I have already seen some good come of this... I am a member of my community's Facebook group. It covers neighborhoods spanning about a 2-mile radius. Typically, it's used as a sort of Neighborhood watch system - like "Beware, package theif" or "Someone's dog got loose" or "Beware a kid threw eggs at our car" etc etc etc. But the board has turned so that neighbors are binding together and helping those that may need assistance. Offering free childcare, offering to run pick up necessities for those shut in etc. They are going as far as to check in/account for elderly neighbors that live alone - just to make sure they are ok. As Mr Rogers always said in times of crisis "Look for the helpers."

At this point, I would not be surprised to see parks like KI cut spring weekend-only operations, and push back opening until the typical time period when they normally begin full time operations. There’s no way this thing is going to settle down by early April. We’re still at surface level of the iceberg. That having been said - they will do what’s right. Don’t get upset, or angry or frustrated. Any decisions they make will be done for our welfare, and the welfare of their employees.

Agreed - but remember that its highly contagious and although it may not have affected them much, it may fatally affect someone of questionable health. I am glad to know people are getting checked, and I hope that stay confined if tested positive for the sake of others.

Broadway shows are now closed in NYC for the next month. That's mind boggling. Most of them will not survive.

Good God ... was going by the one news article I read which specifically said "inside."

No INSIDE gatherings over 100 in Ohio now.

I'll be anxious to see if the virus can actually live outdoors. I have read that experts believe that although the virus can live on interior surfaces like countertops, plastic, metal etc. that is not believed to be an effective means of transmission. At this point, its is believed to be transmitted mainly through person to person contact. I would suspect that we've not yet seen the peak of the transmissions... experts are saying that may not come for another 8 weeks... it may get better - or it may get a lot worse. I will say, for all those biting their nails over media day, or opening weekend or first rides on Orion etc. Take a chill pill. The park will do whats right and act in the best interest of its guests and their safety. I am POSITIVE Cedar Fair is monitoring the situation closely. They are not going to make any broad statements about cancellations, or closures etc until they have more info and concrete directives. Right now there's just too much left unknown. It is not a situation that calls for panic, but it IS very concerning. To say its just a "common cold" is kind of a slap to those that may have lost loved ones to it. Downplaying the severity of it undermines our ability to contain and control it. Of course we have to be rational... buying truckloads of toilet paper isnt going to help much. The best quote I read in this thread was from Malem. "Personally, I'm a lot more worried about potentially spreading it to others than about getting seriously ill from the virus myself. It's quite dangerous to vulnerable populations, and it does have the capability of making even otherwise healthy people very ill." That is exactly how I feel. We all need to be very cognizant of our role in halting the spread. If that means we cant go to KI for a few more weeks... so be it. Health is more important. My current modus operandi is to be "cautiously optimistic."

Just for posterity. Enchanted Voyage - 1972 until 1983. Operated 12 seasons. Smurfs Enchanted Voyage - 1984 until 1991. Operated 8 seasons. Phantom Theater - 1992 until 2002. Operated 11 seasons. Scooby Doo and the Haunted Castle - 2003 until 2009. Operated 7 seasons. Boo Blasters - 2010 and counting. (This will be it's 11th season of operation.) It woudn't surprise me to see the ride "refreshed" in the next few seasons. The conveyance unit seems to still be very dependable - but it's heading into it's 29th season of use. The guns seem very temperamental to me... but they always have, even when it was "Scooby new." What Boo Blasters has going for it, that most of the others didnt... is that the theme doesnt "wear out." What I mean is, its generic enough that it hasn't stagnated with kids. More about that in a minute... Just to take folks back - by the time Enchanted Voyage was converted to Smurfs, the Hanna-Barbera characters featured in the ride were (for the most part) irrelevant. Young children of the 80's weren't that familiar with the predominance of them because most of the cartoons the attraction was based on were long cancelled by then. The ride was in DESPERATE need of a re-do in its latter years. The Smurfs rolled in and breathed a new (albeit annoying) life into the ride. However, in a handful of years the Smurf craze died and the cartoon wore itself out. Kids that watched the cartoon grew up and lost interest by the late 1980's. (You have to remember that back then, there was no Cartoon Network, or DVD collections etc. Once a cartoon was removed from Saturday morning TV... it was virtually removed from the minds and interest of new generations of children.) "Smurfs Enchanted Voyage" was very popular for about the first 4-5 years that it operated. It kept a steady crowd in it's later years... but frankly the ride sort of became a joke and people made fun of its "trite" and "uncool" theme once the Smurf fad died out. Lets also not forget that its conveyance device was, a water trough... which at that point was 20 years old. I think the parks (the other KECO Managed parks all had Smurfs too) as a whole learned from this after realizing the novelty of a popular cartoon character had a shelf life (on average) around 4 years. SEV lasted roughly 2 or 3 seasons longer than it probably should have. Then along came Phantom Theater. Phantom Theater was kind of an anomaly. It was, IMO, one of the boldest and most unique things Kings Island ever installed. This may shock some... but I actually rank it second only to "The Beast" as far as originality and uniqueness to Kings Island. It really was a superb attraction - especially when it first opened - a real gem. Frankly, its my personal belief that the decision to add something so unique was probably due, in large part, by what they learned with the Smurfs. The KI executives probably didn't want to install another specific, pop culture character-driven ride that would become old hat in a handful of years. I first rode Phantom Theater in June of 1992. I remember waiting well over an hour to ride it. (The line stretched through HB Land.) I was amazed by it when I first rode - it definitely had a VERY similar vibe akin to Disney's Haunted Mansion (on a lesser scale - complete with its own take on the "Doom Buggies.") Actually, it was terrifying to many kids when it opened, and there were LOTS of crying and screaming children. The problem with Phantom Theater was, with time, the ride's figures wore themselves out. Many don't know this, but year after year the rubber masks and hands had to be replaced. They would break down, melt and deteriorate because of the constant movement and heat from the hydraulics. There was a whole shop inside the building (actually located just behind the cars as they faced the "Hilda Bovine" mirror-breaking scene) that housed spare parts for the ride/characters. When they needed replacements, they called up AVG Inc (who did the animations and theming) and ordered the parts by a catalog number. AVG had molds in storage and they'd re-pour the necessary rubber mask or hand. Once the rubber was spread in the mold, they filled it with spray foam insulation - this created a sort of "form" inside the mask or hand. They then had their coloring/facial accents hand painted by artists according to the original detailed design specs. They were shipped to KI on the foam heads and hand forms. When I toured the ride after it's closure and before it was converted to Scooby, I personally saw a whole bin of those heads & hand forms obtained from ordering replacement masks over the years. I asked if I could have one - but no dice. They felt like the equivalent of a nerf football. Frankly, the park HATED to lose Phantom Theater. But the ride's animatronics and effects had virtually worn themselves out. Being Paramount at the time, they already had worked with Sally rides at two other parks - and Sally came on board having already secured the Scooby licensing. And as we all know, Scooby is arguably the most time-enduring and most famous Hanna-Barbera character. Had CF not opted to drop the (no doubt) hefty licensing fee required to continue with the Scooby theming, I have no doubt the ride would still exist and be as popular today. When the licensing was dropped, that forced a generic overlay. Although very basic... and quite frankly, flat... the "Boo Blasters" theme is not one that's necessarily going to wear itself out theme-wise. Its not based on specific characters or being driven by a specific cartoon entity. In other words, kids dont know any of the "characters," so they aren't emotionally invested enough to get tired of them. Should it change to a Peanuts themed dark ride - which it could - it might breathe new life into the ride. But again, it would likely stagnate since it would be a very specific theme that is, IMO, already lost on kids...and adults... today. It will eventually change. It'll have to. The effects, animatronics and technology will wear/age out. When it does, the park will make the determination of where to take it. I cant imagine KI without a dark ride... but we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I pray for something unique and bold again.... so future generations will have something to discuss as passionately as we do "Phantom Theater."

If I count (and remember) correctly, I believe there were 11 new coasters built for 2019 in just North America and Europe.... out of those 8 have inversions. New-for-2019 coasters with inversions in North America: Yukon Striker (Canada's Wonderland), Steel Curtain (Kennywood), Maxx Force (SFGAm), Copperhead Strike (Carowinds), New-for-2019 coasters with inversions in Europe: Zardra (Poland), Dynamite (Germany), Fury (Germany), Untamed (Holland) New for 2019 coasters that did not have inversions... Hagrid's Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure (Universal's Islands of Adventure), Kentucky Flyer (Kentucky Kingdom), Wilkolak (Poland). So... judging by those numbers, I'd say that inversions are very much IN ;-) I am nearly willing to bet money that Kings Island's next coaster will include them as well. Oh, and just for posterity, launching is very much IN too.

I'll give you my two cents... There was a "turn" in the 80's when it seemed like KI became a bit more of a "teen" park rather than family focused. Because of that, I think some may look on that time as the period in which Kings Island was more interested in thrills rather than being an all-day entertaining, quality family experience. I attended KI many times during the "Linder Years"... I recall that it was still a good guest experience - clean, well managed etc. I do, however, distinctly recall that as I returned each season it seemed more and more rides went missing. Many (including myself in the past) have laid blame on the owners at the time - American Financial - for the fact that "original" rides disappeared during the tenure. Truth is, at least a few of those rides had just naturally worn out and there probably wasn't a lot they could do to salvage them. TMK American Financial didn't come in with a sweeping arm of change insisting rides be scrapped. (That was more Paramount's style) In reality, the park was still being managed by the same people (KECO) as had operated it in years prior... it was just owned by someone else. By this point, the park was nearing it's 20th anniversary, and many of the rides had probably "reached the end of their service life." (Sound familiar?) I vividly recall that during my visits to the park during the time period I noticed the wear and tear of certain aging attractions. For example, by the time it closed, Smurfs Enchanted Voyage was a dusty, rust-stained and overall unkempt ride. I certainly wish at least a few of the original/classic rides were still there. There's validity to the argument that rides of the same ilk at other parks have fared better. (Need an example? Just look at Kennywood's Turtle.) But from the start it was always Kings Island's moniker to not allow the park to stagnate. When KI was built, it was a nod to Coney Island and Cincinnati's past, but the new owners were adamant that it was to be it's very own unique park. (This actually caused a bit of an uproar among Cincinnati Coney Island purists that initially refused to go to KI when it opened out of protest.) Much to their credit, some major rides/attractions were added during the "Linder years." Vortex, Amazon Falls, Adventure Express, Waterworks, Phantom Theater even Top Gun (originally contracted by AF before the Paramount Agreement was signed) are all to be credited to this era. That says quite a bit about their focus on investment. Consequently, these attractions have evolved into staples of the park now deeply etched into the hearts of those that grew up riding them. (Need proof? Phantom Theater is one of the most missed and most reminisced rides from the park's past - and it was a replacement!) In hindsight Paramount did far more damage to Kings Island's original vision than the "Linder Years" did. The entire focus during this time was to commercialize the park - and that ultimately caused the park to lose it's soul - not to mention any type of coherent theming. At the time I personally championed it.. I mean, the rides were so grand.. but when IJST opened I remember walking away from media day devastated by what they had done to massacre the most beautiful part of the park (and in the midst removing not one, but two of the most classic attractions.) I stopped attending KI for the next two seasons because I was so upset by what I saw. In the future, I'm sure some may argue the same thing about CF. Heck with the loss of Firehawk and Vortex some already are crying that the current owners are "destroying its history." But fact is, there's probably more to be said about investment in new attractions than there is to be said of keeping aged ones. The reason KI is still around, and still a HUGE force in the Theme Park industry, is because it has evolved and changed with the times. I'll finish my soapbox by saying that we haven't seen the last of ride removals. We, no doubt, will see other aging and less popular rides removed in the near future.... the VERY near future. Its a necessary evil that will continue to allow the park to flourish. Finally... as someone that has attended KI for 40 years, I can say its current state rings of the same vibe as those "glory years." It has a bit more to go... *cough* show quality *cough*... but the Kings Island of today is really grand. I'm personally very happy with what Cedar Fair is doing with the park. That having been said, I predict that the next few years will see a renewed focus on general infrastructure and family experience. They're giving the thrill-seekers their big gift this year, they'll likely concentrate on smaller thrills next... I just hope they add a few more trees in the mix as well ;-).