Timberliners Delayed

[calakapepe]

We'll just have to cross my fingers

[The Interpreter]

Watch what they do, not what they say.

[Creed Bratton]

Well for 2016 so far, I've seen a mess.....does that count?

[Oldiesmann]

I wouldn't pay much attention to Screamscape. This is the site that's know to retroactively change things to make it look like they were right all along even if they weren't.

[The Interpreter]

But, as said previously above by others, the park feeds Screamscape the hints it wants published. There's a long record of that.

In the case of Holiday World, you discount Screamscape at your peril.

[calakapepe]

Hehehe I'd like to imagine how funny it'd be if WE crossed MY fingersOops. You know what I meant

[Joncars05]

But, is current management/ownership of Holiday World in it for the long run? And what are their long term goals and philosophies? And, most importantly, who are THEY and when?

That remains to be seen.

What signs have you seen to say that the current management will not continue running the park as a long range investment? You continually question their intentions when they have shown ZERO outward signs of any intentions of selling the park to another firm. They have literally invested $22 million with Thunderbird. The park needed to create it's own power station to even operate Thunderbird without blacking out the entire town of Santa Claus, IN. They did extensive track work on Voyage two years back and are poised to do another treatment for 2017. They have invested in a $2+ million upgrade on The Legend while re-configuring the final 4th of the Ride's layout. They have continually invested in the water park with major installations of Wildebeest and Mammoth. They continually create new items and revamp their menus for food, desserts, and drinks for their patrons. They have added 30+ cabanas a couple of years ago. Will Koch's daughters, his wife, and past co-worker Matt are all currently working in Holiday World's management team. The current management team seems fully invested in what they are doing with the park with what seems to be long term visions and goals. Heck, they have even started a podcast letting listeners in on certain plans and the happenings with the park. You don't simple shell out $30+ million in 3 years without long term goals. If you are trying to sell a park typically you will not put any money into the park. Look at Indiana Beach for your example. They basically let the park sit idle for 3 years before they found a buyer. If HW and the current management team stops investing money in the park then I will worry. But as long as they continue to improve the park I believe it's a non issue.

Side note: I understand that you are upset with how Pat was removed from the park but that is the direct result of her own son's actions. She would still be at the park today if Dan didn't illegally try and take the park away from Lori. You can read the court's case review of what happened and it was a slam dunk case. Pat chose to stick by her son Dan and I don't blame her. As a parent myself I will support my kid even when they make a terrible mistake. If you want to place blame with how Pat has been treated please look no further than the owner of that park in Alabama who put himself and others in this situation and not the current management team at Holiday World.

[JCoaster25]

Just throwing this out there.

Was at the park today and had a GREAT time. Voyage was running SO WELL! The park has modified the midcourse block this season, so it is NO LONGER stopping completely and was hauling through the second half! Also, this visit was one of the first in a LONG time where I enjoyed every ride I had on Voyage, and never got a headache once because of the track work done this year. So clearly, the park DOES care.

 

Look, I don't see how Holiday World would flat out get rid of or drastically neuter their 3 wood coasters. They are fully aware of how well-acclaimed they are, and as far as I know, seem to have every intention of keeping them in great shape/making them better, which is why they just put $2 million into Legend, which BTW, looks REALLY good in person with its new double down and redesigned first drop and 4 corners. I'm super excited to try it out!

Also I found out there's a specific reason for flattening out the last turn into the brakes. It's so the brake run could be extended so that the train would have more room to stop safely. Those who are familiar with (old) Legend may remember how it would hit the brakes HARD, so hard that a train coupler would occasionally buckle, and it was really jarring to riders, so in my opinion, having a less-whiplash inducing brake run is a big plus for both riders and the ride itself. Personally I don't consider these modifications as "neutering" since the speed will be exactly the same as it was before, and Legend books it through those 4 corners, so it'll still be plenty intense, just with more fluid/less jarring transitions.

[calakapepe]

Joncars05 - possibly making the park value go up before selling? I personally don't know of any evidence for or against strongly suggesting a selling or a flag being planted in the park grounds for a permanent address.(in other words, to stay there long term) But it's not unseen to invest and fix up and pretty a property up before trying to find a buyer, or whilst finding buyers.

 

JCoaster25 - You made my night. I'm very glad to hear that the MCBR did not trim the ride at least on April 23rd Glad that the track still rides great! As a fan of the ride, I love any news of the coaster being well behaved.. but I understand and second-hand know of it's lack of longevity in ride performance..

I somewhat agree with Legend.. I don't think it's a total neuter.. it has an extra pop of air, a faster turn after that.. but I still don't like the flattening of the last turn. That makes no sense to me how that would possibly allow the train to have a longer brake run.

[Skylab]

I was also at Holiday World today. I hadn't been since a year or two before Thunderbird. Voyage then was... not well. So I was pleasantly surprised at how well it ran today. As JCoaster25 said, the MCBR is almost a non-factor and you can see plenty of spots with new wood, so they're clearly doing something. For how long remains to be seen. Of course, I know less than probably anyone here.

Did the trains always squeal like that? Voyage, despite the improvements, sounded like pre-resurrection Thunder Run.

[JCoaster25]

Joncars05 - possibly making the park value go up before selling? I personally don't know of any evidence for or against strongly suggesting a selling or a flag being planted in the park grounds for a permanent address.(in other words, to stay there long term) But it's not unseen to invest and fix up and pretty a property up before trying to find a buyer, or whilst finding buyers.

 

JCoaster25 - You made my night. I'm very glad to hear that the MCBR did not trim the ride at least on April 23rd Glad that the track still rides great! As a fan of the ride, I love any news of the coaster being well behaved.. but I understand and second-hand know of it's lack of longevity in ride performance..

I somewhat agree with Legend.. I don't think it's a total neuter.. it has an extra pop of air, a faster turn after that.. but I still don't like the flattening of the last turn. That makes no sense to me how that would possibly allow the train to have a longer brake run.

There is less banking in the turn, and the transition out of the bank is about 10 to 15ish feet shorter than it was before.

 

^And yeah I noticed the screech was much louder than usual, too. All I know is that Voyage's trains received a standard refurb at the PTC shop this off-season. Perhaps maintenance just didn't grease the wheels as much? I'm not sure.

[Skylab]

Yeah, I assumed it was just because it was early in the season, new parts hadn't been broken in yet, etc.

[Joncars05]

Joncars05 - possibly making the park value go up before selling? I personally don't know of any evidence for or against strongly suggesting a selling or a flag being planted in the park grounds for a permanent address.(in other words, to stay there long term) But it's not unseen to invest and fix up and pretty a property up before trying to find a buyer, or whilst finding buyers.

 

Fixing up and prettying a property are both completely different than investing $41+ million on rides and attractions in only 4 years.  The attractions added to Holiday World since 2012 include: Mammoth, Legend Reborn, Kitty Tea Party, Mayflower, Crow's Nest Relocation/Rebranding, Thunderbird, Hyena Falls, Hyena Springs, and Holidog Express. That $41 million doesn't include the cost to add Cabanas, new boats added to Mammoth this year, any rollercoaster repairs outside of the specific Legend Reborn project, the removal of attractions, the cost of water park attraction maintenance, and other items. Also if you are looking for a flag being planted in the park grounds for a permanent location for Holiday World look no further than the fact that 2016 is their 70th year of operation. All 70 years have been run under the Koch family name.

 

If you want to sell you add small items and slap some paint on some rides and spruce up some landscaping. You pinch pennies and dimes or as some on this forum mention nickels. Most parks don't spend anything and just let the park sit until a buyer comes along. Parks that are selling usually don't care for the little details such as food and beverage changes or small details that require new purchases. Because if you are selling the ultimate goal is to make as much money as possible then cut out.

[The Interpreter]

Add to all this the expense of buying out Dan's 40 percent interest in the park.

Recalculate.

And it's easy to draw rationally based sound conclusions.

Frequently, to enhance value in a large asset, you reinvest as much as possible before converting it. Especially if your ability to do so is about to be constrained.

The current ownership knew the expense of obtaining complete control was coming. Those large capital investments you detail were made prior to taking the measures necessary to pay 40 percent of the value of the park to get the admittedly difficult one out. This was the apparent only way to continue while excluding the nosey, judicially determined untrustworthy, vexatious minority owner. That money was not laying around in a cash drawer somewhere.

Those who provided it also get a say in the future there. Covenants, etc. See Cedar Fair 2006 to the Q rescue. Not to mention the bite that unexpected death taxes has no doubt had. And legal fees.

Yep. Management/ownership/philosophy is already different now. And it does make a transfer of legal ownership down the road far more likely.

What could be afforded in that park in the past is not a reflection of debt capacity in the future. And a park with a very healthy balance sheet before Will's death and even before all the legal, family and economic aftermath has a very different balance sheet now.

I stand by my post. The future of current ownership/management/philosophy is murky indeed. Regardless of WHO it is, it already is different and is about to get differenter.

Oh, "treatment" for Voyage in 2017. Interesting word choice. Interesting, indeed. I'm going to file that one. It's...useful.

Lance and all should remember though, plans change, times change, people change.

There's hope. Hearts and minds can change. I pray for the sake of the family that happens here. I have hope, but I'm not hopeful.

[Creed Bratton]

Yep. Management/ownership/philosophy is already different now. And it does make a transfer of legal ownership down the road far more likely.

I stand by my post. The future of current ownership/management/philosophy is murky indeed. Regardless of WHO it is, it already is different and is about to get differenter.

I'd also add on that the current ownership and some management aren't typically seen carrying a broom and dustpan around. Some ownership is hardly ever seen unless it's for some appearance and the atmosphere is cold a lot of the time. And no I'm not talking about Matt.

[thekidd33]

^This. The biggest difference in HW the past few years is the slow creep towards a much more 'corporate park' feel and less of that family run, 'we are so glad you chose to spend your day with us' atmosphere that existed before.

That being said the park has grown and some things may be inevitable changes that come with that but there has been, IMO, a noticeable change in atmosphere at HW that is not for the better.

[stashua123]

But, as said previously above by others, the park feeds Screamscape the hints it wants published. There's a long record of that.

In the case of Holiday World, you discount Screamscape at your peril.

Are there any other parks that do what Holiday World's "Goddess" does?

[The Interpreter]

^This. The biggest difference in HW the past few years is the slow creep towards a much more 'corporate park' feel and less of that family run, 'we are so glad you chose to spend your day with us' atmosphere that existed before.

That being said the park has grown and some things may be inevitable changes that come with that but there has been, IMO, a noticeable change in atmosphere at HW that is not for the better.

And what can be seen as a guest is merely a talisman for the goings-on and maneuvering backstage.

New treatment is definitely right.

New attitude.

New direction.

New restraints.

New future.

[IBEW_Sparky]

It was made crystal clear to me last year, when I was there with IndyGuy4KI and His son.  We were in line for Legend after a rain closure, and the woman running the show now was walking through the crowd towards the Thanksgiving section of the park.  The look on said woman's face was more that of exasperation and annoyance of having to leave the nice air conditioned office, than the "We are working our butts off to as quickly as safely possible get the rides operational so you, our valued Guests, can enjoy the rest of the day at the park because we KNOW that without you, there is no us" smile that Mrs. Pat Koch would have doubtlessly had on Her face.  Gone, loooonnnnggggg gone, are the days of being thanked and waved at as you exit the park, and sincerely being asked to "Please come back and visit us soon".

[thekidd33]

Which is sad because, more than Voyage, or Wildabeest, or Raven before them, seeing not just Pat but an entire staff of people who genuinely wanted you to enjoy your day was the best part of Holiday World.

[calakapepe]

I was also at Holiday World today. I hadn't been since a year or two before Thunderbird. Voyage then was... not well. So I was pleasantly surprised at how well it ran today. As JCoaster25 said, the MCBR is almost a non-factor and you can see plenty of spots with new wood, so they're clearly doing something. For how long remains to be seen. Of course, I know less than probably anyone here.

Did the trains always squeal like that? Voyage, despite the improvements, sounded like pre-resurrection Thunder Run.

The MCBR is almost a non-factor? So it DID stop/ trim you that day?

Getting mixed signals.

[IBEW_Sparky]

From video reports Ive seen, Voyage was running untrimmed yesterday.

[Joncars05]

Oh, "treatment" for Voyage in 2017. Interesting word choice. Interesting, indeed. I'm going to file that one. It's...useful.

Terp you know exactly what I meant just like I knew what you meant when you said differenter. You may not agree with my opinion (and that's completely fine by me) but there is no need to be condescending.

[The Interpreter]

No condescension intended.

I just wonder if THAT's the word the park is going to use for what it's going to do.

Such a nice word...