Smoothing vortex.

[thoe124]

Why couldn't they just enlarge Vortexes up stop and side wheels? It would make for a much smoother ride. The up stops just keep spinning long after it comes into the brake run and stops.

[homestar92]

I'm pretty confident the effect you would see from that would be pretty much nil.

Vortex has awkward transitions. That is the source of the "roughness". The brilliant man in my avatar designed it like that on purpose. I think the biggest effect you could see in making it smoother would be a change in restraints, or possibly a change in trains. Since Vortex is located in Ohio, and Arrow survives through S&S, in order for any changes to occur, a prerequisite would be that S&S does not object to them.

Also, sit in the first row of the fifth car. The roughness will be dramatically reduced.

Hope I don't come off as a pretentious know-it-all. I am actually thrilled that someone has taken an interest in my beloved Vortex. I have many a friend who will not ride my favorite coaster in the world with me because they feel that it is rough.

[YoungStud]

Why would that old man have designed it on pourpose to be rough?

[TheCrypt]

Ron Toomer designed the ride without the help of computers which is why I think the inversions on Vortex are better than anything Intamin or B&M could offer. They feel so much more intense than modern coasters.

But hey, that's just me.

[YoungStud]

Ron toomer designed his loopers to have the same loop size no matter the height of the coaster.

[calakapepe]

I question the validity of that statement.

I don't believe that is true for Arrow loopers.

[YoungStud]

Take a look at pictures.

[AintNutinElse2Do]

I may be mistaken but isn't Tennessee Tornado the first and only Arrow with non-standard loop heights?

[YoungStud]

Yes it is and b&m style supports.

[kblanken]

http://rcdb.com/76.htm?p=5783

Can you guys tell me which of these two loops is the only loop size they use?

[thedevariouseffect]

Arrow rides are classics...like classic cars

They may not be the most efficient, cheapest, or most incredible thing ever, but when you see them, they look good, and just about every one of them that's been taken care of delivers

Find me a season where top thrill dragster has more uptime than downtime or as many hours operating as an arrow...

Also...Maggie hit 1mil before other rides in the park minus this year, even the train, just saying

May not like it, may not think much of them, but they're the history that created the present and pushed the envelope much harder than anyone today

[YoungStud]

Ok, look at 95% of them up to tennessee tornado.

[jbum123]

5-1 is DEFINATELY the way to tame The Vortex. My daughter loves it and wants to ride it over and over and 5-1 is the only way I can tollerate it. Even then, I still have to brace myself in the restraint to keep from getting banged around. It also seems to depend on how full the train is. (this could just be in my head though)

[YoungStud]

I like magnum on the 2nd hill it seems like the train is not even on the track.

[TombRaiderFTW]

Oddly enough, I was thinking about this for a few hours a few days ago. I don't know how much of this is true, but it's worth a shot.

From Arrow's first coaster through Magnum in 1989, Arrow track was reportedly bent (and welded, I'm guessing?) at the construction site. If you look at the shape of the track from that era compared to any modern coaster, or even a Schwarzkopf, the track has a very Roller Coaster Tycoon-ish shaping to it. Most banking transitions are on track that's relatively straight, when viewed from above or beside.

A lot of what I've read indicates that Arrow, particularly from the mid-80's to 2002, kind of rode the line between today's B&M and, say, today's Premier Rides. They had their reliable models that they sold plenty of (loopers, especially with standard loop/corkscrew layouts; also mine trains), but the models didn't usually cost the roller coaster equivalent of a Mercedes. Every once in a while, they'd come up with something fairly unique which might or might not have some quirks to iron out before becoming successful (suspended coasters, standup trains, X). But none of these things--with the exception of X--had a price tag anywhere near most B&M installations.

I'm fairly new to engineering (I graduated with my BSME in April), but it's pretty constant amongst any industry that the more you have to do to create a product, the more the product will cost. A lot of my engineering career experience has involved designing formed steel products, though none of them are on the same scale as a roller coaster. Even then, fabrication of the products takes quite a bit of time, and next to none of it is ever done at the construction site.

For the price point and complexity of bending fairly thick steel tubing on that large of a scale on site, I'm guessing it was just a whole lot cheaper for Vortex to be shaped the way it is. Of course, I don't know the specifics of how Arrow bent its track at the site, but I can't think of any way trying to both bank AND bend the track simultaneously would be easy, cheap, and accurate.

The only exception to this train of thought is the first hill after the drop on Vortex. That one does bank and crest simultaneously, and I can't speculate with any certainty why that is (if I've been right at any point so far.) My only guess is that the banking transition is so gradual that they were able to bank each piece gradually, but I truthfully don't know. I mean, if that's right, why couldn't the turn into the loops unbank more gradually, instead of being this violent twist? Did Toomer just like karate chopping people in the neck? I don't know.

The more Schwarzkopfs I ride, the less I buy the "they didn't have computers" thing. Take a ride on Sooperdooperlooper or Tig'rr and tell me about the need for computers. We don't need no stinkin' computers!

Also, while I (again) don't know for sure why Arrow did all the things it did, I do know that having all the wheels in contact with the track at all times would increase friction between the wheels and the track, which would both slow the ride down and wear out the polyurethane on the wheels unnecessarily fast. Why hold the upstops against the track if they're going to wear themselves out more than they're going to stop any upward motion? That is an interesting thought about the wheel size, though, thoe124.

TL;DR: Maybe it's cheaper for Vortex to be as rough as it is? IDK.

(Sorry for any spelling errors or not making any sense. I'm tired, and that was typed on an iPhone.)

[TTD-120-420]

Ron Toomer designed the ride without the help of computers which is why I think the inversions on Vortex are better than anything Intamin or B&M could offer. They feel so much more intense than modern coasters.

But hey, that's just me.

I'm pretty sure Terp has debunked the computers myth.

[calakapepe]

Ok, look at 95% of them up to tennessee tornado.

Tennessee Tornado, Canyon Blaster, Carolina Cyclone, Corkscrew... the list goes on.. Yes, many are of very similar shape due to very similar height marks, conversely, many others are quite small in comparison due to their smaller heights.

Unless that very designer didn't design all the coasters listed and the ones in mind.

[thedevariouseffect]

I am not sure about Vortex, but yes they hand built it on site. I may post pictures of some off season work they did on the rails of magnum & corkscrew that I have. But the evidence is clear, the ride is nowhere near the perfect tolerances that rides such as B&M's have.

But that's what makes it unique...knowing it's not a cookie cutter, RCT computer generated coaster, it's very unique and it's own, and people used their profession to make that ride.

Don't see quality like that anywhere anymore really.

[AZ Kinda Guy]

I am not sure about Vortex, but yes they hand built it on site. I may post pictures of some off season work they did on the rails of magnum & corkscrew that I have. But the evidence is clear, the ride is nowhere near the perfect tolerances that rides such as B&M's have.

But that's what makes it unique...knowing it's not a cookie cutter, RCT computer generated coaster, it's very unique and it's own, and people used their profession to make that ride.

Don't see quality like that anywhere anymore really.

Huh? So the integration of computers leads to a ride built with less quality? Not following you here.

[thedevariouseffect]

More precision, more exact science compared to humans which can have flaws. Hell looking at pictures of Corkscrew's lift, you can see it's not exactly perfectly straight and the tubular rails aren't perfectly round. You don't see that with todays' technology

It's not less quality, it's still high quality, but not precise Maybe I just didn't word this right

[AZ Kinda Guy]

More precision, more exact science compared to humans which can have flaws. Hell looking at pictures of Corkscrew's lift, you can see it's not exactly perfectly straight and the tubular rails aren't perfectly round. You don't see that with todays' technology

It's not less quality, it's still high quality, but not precise Maybe I just didn't word this right

I'm still not seeing your point but Arrow has several fails. The Bat, Drachen Fire, and X come to mind. I can't think of one B&M failure.

[thedevariouseffect]

Well yeah...but I'm saying to me it's more personal, more gritty, more human element

That to me makes arrow coasters special. All the little imperfections, flaws, ect set it apart.

Also b&m does have some fails. Not as dramatic or crazy but little fails usually relating to operations. Mantis being my number one, terrible control panel, and two it's operations make it impossible for three train op. It's little in comparison but they do have flaws

[RollerNut]

The older stand-up coasters like Carowinds' Vortex. Slow loading, too short of track juat beats you the whole ride.

[zombieninja]

"...but I'm saying to me it's more personal, more gritty, more human element

That to me makes arrow coasters special. All the little imperfections, flaws, ect set it apart."

...and this is why I always thought Gemini had a lot of character. Perhaps someone else could come along and make a smoother ride identical to it with today's technology... but it just wouldn't be Gemini.

[calakapepe]

I love the airtime one Gemini and Magnum (I coupled them because their Arrow)

I do wish Gemini could stand to be less rough in one or two spots, but the two (or three) coasters really feel like they have great air because the crest of hills are abrupt and don't slowly transition in like today's coasters.. though, I can't imagine how that affects the wheels of the cars.. but hey, it's fun!

[YoungStud]

Magnum's hills are not parabolic that causes the ejector air. Its like riding a bucking bronco.

[tuxedoman52]

The only thing I don't like about Vortex is the turn right after the loops. I think I would be fine with taking out those brakes.

[xXDrummerKiDXx]

If they took out the MCBR, the corkscrews wouldn't be as fun.

[The Interpreter]

Because you'd have to wait longer to ride?

[xXDrummerKiDXx]

Took me a minute to understand that, Terp!