Cinci Streetcar A Go

[Gordon Bombay]

Continued...

Isn't the Banks to Newport like an 8 minute walk? Either way, I've read that a route to Newport and Covington are proposals for future expansion. Baby steps.

A few years back Newport and Covington passed resolutions stating that if they were to build a streetcar, they would build theirs to the same specifications and details as Cincinnati's in order to connect the two systems. The most recently proposed route would be a loop featuring a KY streetcar departing Newport over the Purple People (or most likely the Taylor Southgate) bridge into DT Cincy, then back over the Clay Wade Bailey into Covington and back through CVG into Newport.

However, no studies or plans have been launched since then.

I don't know why all you Cincinnati people dislike paying for some public improvement. You've been paying for the stadiums since 1996 and those have been awesome and profitable improvements to the riverfront so why is the streetcar any different?

I wouldn't classify a stadium for a football team that hasn't seen the second round of the playoffs since the fall of the Berlin Wall to be an awesome or profitable improvement.

It's easy for people to sit back and pan the stadium construction now, but it's funny how no one had regrets when they voted to raise taxes to build the two buildings. It's a much more complicated situation and issue, but you have to keep in mind the mentality in 96. Teams held cities' hostage and having pro sports teams wasn't just an economic engine, but a matter of civic pride and a determining factor of where your municipality is on the national stage. Lover it or hate it, those stadiums are here to stay.

I think it should go to Mason.

The streetcar itself won't, however future light rail could. Earlier in this post I mentioned how the streetcar is a circulator line, meant to rapidly carry people throughout downtown. It is meant to be connected with existing roads and bus service. In the future, you could see light rail extending to Mason and other outlying areas.

Interestingly enough - in 2002 there was a measure put on the ballot to fund construction of a massive light rail system. The first part of that system, dubbed "Metro Moves," would've been a modern streetcar line similar to what is being built now. The second phase and first light rail line would've been called the "Kings-port" line. That line would've had a southern terminus at CVG International airport, snaked its way north through Kentucky and crossed the Ohio River into the downtown Riverfront Transit Center (where it would link with streetcar/other lines), then it would proceed north roughly following the path of I-71 until it reached a northern terminus at Kings Island.

I'm not sure where exactly a Mason or Kings Mills (as it was at the time) station would've been placed - I haven't read that study in years, but essentially you could've taken rail all the way from KI to the airport through the city.

Sadly, that measure was defeated at the ballot box.

[The Interpreter]

Add DC to your streetcar list. Service starts soon.

Ditto the Silver Line for Metro.

Probably after I've exited this orb, the Purple Line in Maryland, a public\private partnership, will be built. Maybe.

[shark6495]

I like this. I think the more people you can get to go down town, the less crime you will have. The bigger police presence has also helped. I wish the Metro Moves would have passed at the Ballot Box a few years ago. I live out in fairfield/west chester area. I would take a bus downtown but service stops from my area around 6/7 and there is no direct way home. If the light rail were to have been built, I could park out here take the train into the city, watch a reds game, hop on the street car to hit the bars, take the street car back to the transit center, then take the train back to my car, etc...

[JTW]

How many people actually know about the transit center? Is it even used regularly yet?

I used to go to downtown often but i have not made it a habit in many years.

[shark6495]

you mean bus parking lot and concert venue? During Bengals games they park busses in it. They just recently had a concert. At any given time there are cars parked in front of the entrance near Paul Brown stadium....

It was built to have a street car/light rail work in side of it. I never understood why Metro does not use it as a main or semi main hub for all of the bus traffic that could go to the Banks..... same with Tank.....

[JTW]

By regularly I mean on a daily basis, and not just for special events. It's just a waste of infrastructure if you ask me.

[Gordon Bombay]

you mean bus parking lot and concert venue? During Bengals games they park busses in it. They just recently had a concert. At any given time there are cars parked in front of the entrance near Paul Brown stadium....

It was built to have a street car/light rail work in side of it. I never understood why Metro does not use it as a main or semi main hub for all of the bus traffic that could go to the Banks..... same with Tank.....

The main reason Metro does not use the RTC as its main hub is because it's several blocks from the center of downtown, where a majority of the office buildings are located. Essentially, if Metro/Tank busses were to use the facility they would have to loop around downtown and into the underground center. Then passengers would have to walk several blocks into the central business district.

As it stands with Government Square, Metro's current hub, Metro's routes terminate right in the business district center with stops along the way. Their current hub is much more convenient.

As you stated, the RTC was built more so with rail intention in mind.

By regularly I mean on a daily basis, and not just for special events. It's just a waste of infrastructure if you ask me.

On a daily basis, the approach ways of the RTC are used every day, but the underground section is not used daily. The entry ways are converted to monthly parking spots that can be purchased for downtown workers and in the evenings for event goers. The interior underground area is used frequently for busses visiting the Freedom Center, game days and special events.

If you remember, when Cinergy Field was still around, charter and group busses could be parked on the main level of the stadium's entryway. Nowadays, those busses park in the RTC while their riders attend events. You can usually walk down there (especially during Reds day games) and see just how many busses are down there

In terms of it "being a waste," it's actually a good example of forward thinking. You have to remember, before the RTC was constructed and Ft. Washington Way was completely redesigned, 2nd St. was not at the level it's currently at. Essentially, 2nd st. was raised to the same plane as 3rd st. To support it, they would've just filled in dirt, but the idea of the RTC was conceived of. When all was said and done, it cost only $2 Million more to build the RTC than it would've to build the dirt and concrete structure to support 2nd st.

The eventual plan is to use the RTC as a rail terminus (light rail, commuter rail, eastern corridor, oasis line, airport line, etc). The streetcar will actually feature a stop directly above on 2nd St. to connect and serve the RTC.

Here's a photo of what it looks like on a random day when the doors were unlocked:

[JTW]

I can't disagree with anything you stated. My post before yours was intended to be much longer and actually include some of the information you provided. It got shortened way down as I was on break at work and didn't have time to fully elaborate my thoughts.

In the grand scheme of my life KIC ranks quite low and I browse and post when able to. My kids, wife, health, job, and many other things take priority. Sometimes I shouldn't say anything because I often lack the few minutes it takes to publish a more thought out post.

Thread hijack over, thank you for the information you provided, and as a real contribution I'll leave this.

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/

[The Interpreter]

And, to make it clickable:

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/

[shark6495]

I guess I shouldn't say the main hub for Metro but use it as a stop? To me that would be a great spot for a tank to the levy run or metro to the burbs following a reds/bengals game.... Why don't we have light rail again?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Outdoor Man]

My opinion. its a bad financial deal. Unfortunately, unless I'm mistaken there are none, if precious, few hotels located on the route, doesn't access Fountain Square and only gets 2 blocks away from the Horseshoe and is NO WHERE near the convention center. It seems a better route would have included the aforementioned.

Downtown just isn't touristy enough to support. Now, it may give cheaper access to parking for downtown employees to park at the Riverfront to their jobs up on, say, 7th street... which will suck on the Business Day Specials.

[upstop]

Yes... come downtown and ride the train through nothing to do nothing and to see nothing,

[KevKenny]

Oh if they just finished the subway cincy may not be in this situation

[westcoaster]

Goodness, its crazy, Subway if it had ever get completed what would the Tri-state had been like? But at the very least Cincinnati will not have 2 cancelled/stopped major transportation projects.

Will we ever see high speed loop run as Cincinnati as the hub, to INDY, Columbus, Louisville, Lexington, and Dayton, that would rock, ?

[CedarPointer]

Oh, the things I would do for mass transit that could get me from Dayton to Mason in a reasonable amount of time...

[Outdoor Man]

Oh, the things I would do for mass transit that could get me from Dayton to Mason in a reasonable amount of time...

there is one. it's called I-75 in an automobile.

No mass transit system could come close to that time. Guaranteed "IF" such a system were developed from... maybe Downtown Dayton, there would be the following stops (at a minimum):

• UD
• West Carrollton
• Dayton Mall
• Springboro
• Franklin
• Middletown
• Monroe
• Liberty Twp.

So, get off on the eighth stop and pay a taxi to get you to Mason.

[shark6495]

depends on how you measure time. If you mean a 45 minute drive by car versus a 55 minute by train/light rail. 45 minutes of driving, getting upset at other drivers, watching out for accidents, eating while trying not to crash etc.... or 55 minutes by light rail where you can read your book, eat food, play games, comment on topics such as this.

If there was such a service for light rail that could connect down town cincy with dayton, indy, cleveland, and columbus, I think it would be a huge hit. Not to mention if there were the correct coordination of services in those areas, taxis, buses, street car.

People dont ride the Grayhound bus, because its slow and cramped. Light rail trains are a bunch better, not nearly as cramped.

[Bennett]

My opinion. its a bad financial deal. Unfortunately, unless I'm mistaken there are none, if precious, few hotels located on the route, doesn't access Fountain Square and only gets 2 blocks away from the Horseshoe and is NO WHERE near the convention center. It seems a better route would have included the aforementioned.

Downtown just isn't touristy enough to support. Now, it may give cheaper access to parking for downtown employees to park at the Riverfront to their jobs up on, say, 7th street... which will suck on the Business Day Specials.

The streetcar is a cluster fluck, just as Mark Mallory and his supporters were/are. Poorly designed from the outset, the costs were brazenly lied about by the supporters, and will paid for with money that the city does not have, going on a route that no one needs. Does it stop at the Casino? Convention Center? UC/Clifton?

Very, very typical of the city, though. The only reason this disaster passed to begin with was that ignorant SB5 proposition was placed on the ballot at the same time the streetcar was. The liberals came out of the woodwork, and thus, we have this epic fail of a project. A shameful waste of money that the city does NOT have...the route alone should have been a non-starter.

Yet, you have the liberal mindset..."Well, we have to do SOMETHING..." Add to that, the Mallory administration hurried up the project to the point that those with fiscal sanity couldn't pull the plug.

Ugh.

[The Interpreter]

Really? I am a huge fan of Metro. But to say WMATA isn't cramped is comical here. First, there is NO legroom in most seats. Second, unless you get on at the end of the line or ride at very odd hours, that won't matter. Most trains are standing room only, often with passengers packed in like sardines. The driver frequently has to admonish customers to let others out before trying to board, to use all doors, to move toward the center of the car and to wait until the train has come to a complete stop before approaching the platform apron.

As to speed, with DC's congested highways, Metro is almost always faster, except during weekend track work. Unless there's a signal problem. Or a train breaks down. Or a dog is on the track. Or, or, or.

Highways are even less reliable for keeping a schedule around here. My car now gets used perhaps once every three weeks. In suburban Atlanta that wasn't possible. If I truly thought I'd never move from here, I'd sell the car.

[Outdoor Man]

A transit line from the suburbs- say from Monroe running parallel with I-75 to Downtown and through to Florence. Then from Fields-Ertel to the same along I-71 would make more sense to tackle than a street car in a small downtown footprint that doesn't have any major stops.

[Oldiesmann]

I honestly don't see a streetcar route extending to NKY. The Southbank Shuttle and other TANK routes have this covered fairly well. The trip from downtown to either Covington or Newport on the shuttle is about 10 minutes, and most of the TANK routes also stop in downtown Cincinnati. Even though the two agencies are completely separate, Metro and TANK have done a great job of working together to make it easy to get from one side of the river to the other.

[Gordon Bombay]

Why don't we have light rail again?

A county wide initiative (in Hamilton County) was put to the ballot in 2002. It was an incredibly ambitious proposition that called for two light rail lines, two diesel based commuter train lines, a modern streetcar downtown circulator (very similar to the one being built now) and a revised "hub and spoke" bus system. This "Metro Moves" plan was defeated at the ballot box. Hamilton County was just starting to feel buyer's remorse regarding the stadium sales tax raise, gas was still very cheap (compared to today) and the political climate was not right. Coincidentally, the FIRST phase of this plan to be built would've been the modern streetcar.

Construction resumes on that Christmas Eve.

My opinion. its a bad financial deal. Unfortunately, unless I'm mistaken there are none, if precious, few hotels located on the route, doesn't access Fountain Square and only gets 2 blocks away from the Horseshoe and is NO WHERE near the convention center. It seems a better route would have included the aforementioned.

Downtown just isn't touristy enough to support. Now, it may give cheaper access to parking for downtown employees to park at the Riverfront to their jobs up on, say, 7th street... which will suck on the Business Day Specials.

Financially, if the city took on the operating costs of the streetcar it would be a very minuscule part of the operating budget. However, as of the news from Thursday - those operating costs will be financed and provided by a private donor until 2025. So financially, the city has come away with a good deal that many other infrastructure projects in similar cities could only hope to have.

Also, the streetcar will run south on Walnut St. DIRECTLY bordering Fountain Square and the Westin Hotel with several other hotels nearby. This is not a tourist machine, this is a transportation project meant to serve people downtown daily.

The Horseshoe Casino has expressed interest in funding a stub track/loop directly to the front door of the casino. Most likely, this would be executed in Phase 1B, but nothing is set in stone.

Yes... come downtown and ride the train through nothing to do nothing and to see nothing,

Interestingly enough I drove to OTR after work today, had coffee with a friend after snagging a spot on the street. I then parked down at Fountain Square where I grabbed one of the few remaining spots in the underground garage and took the stairs since the elevator had a line of people waiting to use it and pay for parking. Up on the square, even with the rain, people were lined up for holiday activities and Graeters was packed along with McCormick and Schmicks, Boin Na Braza and that sketchy Gyro place off 4th. I had a drink at a nearby bar, then walked to the Cyclones games through The Banks and all of its packed bars. After the game, Boddah1994 and I talked about heading up to OTR to grab some food, but decided against it because we didn't want to deal with the weekend crowds.

For a place that apparently has "nothing" going on, there's certainly a lot of people doing "nothing."

Goodness, its crazy, Subway if it had ever get completed what would the Tri-state had been like? But at the very least Cincinnati will not have 2 cancelled/stopped major transportation projects.

Will we ever see high speed loop run as Cincinnati as the hub, to INDY, Columbus, Louisville, Lexington, and Dayton, that would rock, ?

The streetcar will not be cancelled or stopped. As the article at the beginning of this thread pointed out, city council voted to resume the project on Thursday. The city/region would certainly be very different today had the original subway been completed.

The streetcar is a cluster fluck, just as Mark Mallory and his supporters were/are. Poorly designed from the outset, the costs were brazenly lied about by the supporters, and will paid for with money that the city does not have, going on a route that no one needs.

Are you a transportation engineer? I'm curious as to why it's "poorly designed" as Parsons Brinckerhoff is one of the nation's top engineering firms. The costs have always been up front and updated throughout the process. Since 2007 the public has had countless opportunities to speak for, against and question the project along with council.

Very, very typical of the city, though. The only reason this disaster passed to begin with was that ignorant SB5 proposition was placed on the ballot at the same time the streetcar was. The liberals came out of the woodwork, and thus, we have this epic fail of a project. A shameful waste of money that the city does NOT have...the route alone should have been a non-starter.

Yet, you have the liberal mindset..."Well, we have to do SOMETHING..." Add to that, the Mallory administration hurried up the project to the point that those with fiscal sanity couldn't pull the plug.

Ugh.

Clearly you're very under informed about the project. Even before Issue 48 appeared on the ballot the same day as Senate Bill 5, the streetcar was held to a referendum in 2009 that was also defeated. Pointed out earlier - the project's operating costs will be privately funded until 2025 and potentially beyond. Also, if the liberal mindset is "you have to do something," then is the converse position that you should do nothing?

This project was not rushed through. It has been in planning since 2007 and didn't begin construction until 2012. It was recently paused and re-evaluated then once again approved by city council. It has been endorsed and supported by democrats, charterites and yes even Republicans throughout the recent years.

A transit line from the suburbs- say from Monroe running parallel with I-75 to Downtown and through to Florence. Then from Fields-Ertel to the same along I-71 would make more sense to tackle than a street car in a small downtown footprint that doesn't have any major stops.

As mentioned earlier, had Metro Moves passed in 2002, the first light rail to feature construction would've been an I-71 bordering line that would connect from Mason/Kings Island down 71, throughout downtown and over to the airport/Florence at the southern end.

However, even before that line would've been built - a modern streetcar similar to the one being constructed now would've been the first piece of a regional rail network constructed.

Currently this is not an "either/or" situation. The city of Cincinnati has put the current streetcar project through its paces and similar projects have been huge successes in other cities. The city of Cincinnati did not have the choice of deciding to build a streetcar OR light rail up 71. The 71 "Kingsport" line would've required a tax raise, a much more massive amount of funding, the cooperation of Warren, Hamilton, Kenton and Boone counties - state support from Ohio and Kentucky as well as huge Federal support and then ALL of these government entities would've had to agree on creating and empowering one governing authority to manage the system. Cincinnati City Council can only control Cincinnati.

Cincinnati decided to step up and pursue the modern streetcar after much deliberation, several studies and tons of other work. It is becoming a reality and one that now features a public/private partnership.

The current streetcar plan is the first step in working towards a larger light rail network.

[BoddaH1994]

Interestingly enough I drove to OTR after work today, had coffee with a friend after snagging a spot on the street. I then parked down at Fountain Square where I grabbed one of the few remaining spots in the underground garage and took the stairs since the elevator had a line of people waiting to use it and pay for parking. Up on the square, even with the rain, people were lined up for holiday activities and Graeters was packed along with McCormick and Schmicks, Boin Na Braza and that sketchy Gyro place off 4th. I had a drink at a nearby bar, then walked to the Cyclones games through The Banks and all of its packed bars. After the game, Boddah1994 and I talked about heading up to OTR to grab some food, but decided against it because we didn't want to deal with the weekend crowds.

For a place that apparently has "nothing" going on, there's certainly a lot of people doing "nothing."

Yep. We didn't go up to OTR because we didn't want to have to worry about parking. I guess we could have ridden the street car up there...

[BB1]

I was so excited for a vintage style street car, horse driven even, but sadly now this whole "new age sleek" stuff is getting in the way.I won't get on the futuristic locomotive for a while probably, driving and walking from Duke Energy Center for my fishing expo is what I need, and one game out of the year to the Reds won't make me get onto that. Just please, don't make me wait for the "metal box of slenderness" to pass often.

On the topic of the old train system, I see it far too often going north from Cincy, it is almost like a screen shot to the past. Sub-terrain regions of Cincy hold more things than most think, and is truly a sight.

[Leland Wykoff]

More details:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/23/us/cincinnati-streetcar-plan-pits-desire-for-growth-against-fiscal-restraint.html?_r=0

Mayor won election based in part on the promise to kill the streetcar.

[shark6495]

Im confused of why people are upset that people in power made a choice that best suits the city. They stated the street car would get killed. However, looking at the finances it made more sense to finish than to spend 85% of the cost to stop it. If it becomes to expensive you can just park the trolleys...

[calakapepe]

The street car will never be killed so easily.

Though public transportation can become a replacement for many local communities, many regular visitors to the city still live too far away, and many vacationers visiting family etc. will need to use the street.

[shark6495]

However, with no viable mode of transportation down town other than my car, I dont think I will be using the street car just yet. Mainly because when I go downtown, its to hit a game and grab food next door. However, I could possibly see myself take a street car from the banks to OTR eventually...

[The Interpreter]

Rails delivered today. Construction resumes. Slide show:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/12/26/cincinnatis-streetcar-construction.html?ana=e_du_pub&s=article_du&ed=2013-12-26

[Leland Wykoff]

Im confused of why people are upset that people in power made a choice that best suits the city. They stated the street car would get killed. However, looking at the finances it made more sense to finish than to spend 85% of the cost to stop it. If it becomes to expensive you can just park the trolleys...

Golden rule of business and economics "Sunk costs are irrelevant costs." This is an often broken, and more often misunderstood, rule. In essence the rule means you do not keep spending money on a bad decision just because you already have "sunk" money into the decision.

I predict future problems for this streetcar project if Cincinnati failed to get performance bonds from those civic organizations and businesses who today promise to cover operating losses. That will prove to be a hard debt to collect years down the road when the project is complete.

The concept of walkable cities is predicated upon much more than streetcar lines. Many components must first be in place to create viable pedestrian zones and bring back downtown areas. For and excellent read on this topic please see Jeff Speck's interview and book link:

http://www.npr.org/2012/11/17/165239291/what-makes-a-city-walkable-and-why-it-matters