How would you feel if PKI got X Flight?

[Young Gunz]

With all of this speculation on x Flight coming to PKI, nobody seemed to ask how you guys felt about the ride, or how you felt about getting a moved ride.

[harvesterofyoursorrow]

Very good poll.

After riding X-Flight this summer, I'd love to see it come to PKI for my ridership!

[screamingnight]

It would turn me on a little bit if we got X-Flight.

[UncleHenry]

It would turn me on a little bit if we got X-Flight.

TOO MUCH INFORMATION

[CoastersNSich]

What about those of us that have ridden X-Flight, like myself, who neither loves nor hates the ride. I like X-Flight to a moderate degree. I'd feel neutral that Kings Island may be getting a previously used coaster - that I've been on in its original location (and under that coaster's original ownership, btw).

Moving a large Vekoma flying coaster from one park to another isn't cheap. Remember when Paramount Parks did such a cross-country move with Stealth?

[ragerunner]

As a coaster fan I would not mind KI getting X-Flight.

As a fan of KI I would not like it. Let me explain.

KI is the number one visited seasonal park in the US. A park with this kind of income and attendance deserves better than a used coaster from another park. Would they move a used coaster to Cedar Point - probably not. So why do it at KI, who has a bigger attendance. (I know Cedar Point has bigger revenue - but I would love to see a park vs park income factoring out hotels, marina, campgrounds, Challenge Park, and the indoor water park.

[flightoffear1996]

Look at it this way.

Many of the people that go to Kings Island are season pass holders (at least that is what I observe) . It doesn't seem to me like there is a very big out of town draw for Kings Island. Many people that have been to Kings Island do not even know about X-Flight or Guagna Lake for that matter. Why not move it? You won't go marketing that its a used ride so most of the general public won't even know.

[kjkjkj]

exactly what i was thinking ^

[Captain Picard]

I don't know but I would like to see the numbers on season pass holders to tickets. I would bet ticket attendance is 3x of what the passes are.

[ragerunner]

While season passes make up a certain percentage of park visitors, this concept would also apply to most parks. Even Disney, Sea World and Universal in Orlando have a large season pass holder group. Living down in Florida for several years I can tell you that they give some great deals to Florida residents and those residents do make up a nice percent of the overall park attendance.

While season passes make up a certain percentage of park visitors, this concept would also apply to most parks. Even Disney, Sea World and Universal in Orlando have a large season pass holder group. Living down in Florida for several years I can tell you that they give some great deals to Florida residents and those residents do make up a nice percent of the overall park attendance.

Sorry for the double post.

[jzarley]

So why do it at KI, who has a bigger attendance. (I know Cedar Point has bigger revenue - but I would love to see a park vs park income factoring out hotels, marina, campgrounds, Challenge Park, and the indoor water park.

Actually, I tried to figure that out last Summer, based on the numbers CF released as part of the disclosure after the acquisition was announced. There was approximately a $100M difference between CP's & KI's revenue in 2005. From the best I can figure (and it was kind of difficult because you have to take averages based on CF's reported revenues for all waterparks and lodging), the differences might look something like this:

â€â€Approximately $10-12M by virtue of the higher per cap spending ($3-4 per person higher) by guests at CF parks

â€â€Approximatley $60M for Soak City gate & in-waterpark revenue (based on CF's reported revenues for all waterparks)

â€â€The remaining amount to out-of-park revenues (hotels, restaurants outside the park, the marina, other recreation revenue, etc.)

While the resorts contribute a significant amount to the differences in revenue between the parks, the even greater factor is probably the separate gate for the waterpark.

Again, just a SWAG based on a variety of published numbers...

[ragerunner]

So from you estimates are you saying you think CP or KI have the better park revenue?

I think its very close. If its is very close then I see no reason why they should not invest financially into KI as they would CP - park wise. That would mean $20 million dollar rides every few years, etc... and would not include moving a used coaster from an under performing park (if that really happens).

[BoddaH1994]

I don't know but I would like to see the numbers on season pass holders to tickets. I would bet ticket attendance is 3x of what the passes are.

The usual figure that you're giving about PKI is that 1/3 of their patrons are season passholders, so you're pretty accurate.

Plus, I think this has more to do with moving rides OUT of Geauga Lake than moving a ride into PKI. You can claim what you want about what we deserve, but in all reality IF this does happen, we will happen to get the very long end of the stick in what is nothing more than a happening.

I can personally say that I loved X-Flight. It was amazing. One of my top steels. I'm sure many can and will disagree, but if you guys know me you'll know that I was VERY critical about my experience at Geauga Lake and that was the only ride where I really had no apprehensions.

[jzarley]

So from you estimates are you saying you think CP or KI have the better park revenue?

I think its very close. If its is very close then I see no reason why they should not invest financially into KI as they would CP - park wise. That would mean $20 million dollar rides every few years, etc... and would not include moving a used coaster from an under performing park (if that really happens).

The difference in total revenue isn't my estimate...it's what was reported by CF as part of the SEC disclosures prior to the Parmount acquisitions. (My guess was just trying to figure out how that difference broke down...) CP's revenue in 2005 was more than $100M more than KI's...so it's not a close amount at all--KI's revenue was about 40% lower than CP's. But again--CP is a destination resort, so they've got a lot wider revenue stream coming in.

There's a lot of ways that CF could really grow KI's revenue...a new campground, CF-owned hotels...and of course a really big one that no one would be real happy about

[CoastersRZ]

I assume you mean making Boomerang Bay a separate gated attraction. They would have a hard time selling that to the general public in the Cincinnati area. Escpecially since it has been included in the price of admission to Kings Island since its innaugural season in 1989 as WaterWorks.

[flightoffear1996]

Maybe if you have a season pass it would be free but if you only got an admission ticket it could be extra.

[CoastersRZ]

What?? Where have you been? Boomerang Bay/WaterWorks has always been included with the price of general admission to Kings Island. I was referring to the fact that they might make it a separate gate, which for the paying public from the Cincinnati area (pass holders or general admission ticket purchasers) would come as a shock, since it has been included in their admission fees for all these years.

[jzarley]

^ Yeah, I agree...from a PR standpoint it would be a tough sell. But, it's certainly set up perfectly for that if that was a path they wanted to follow.

[Skippy]

Here's a better question:

What affect do you think the removal of Geauga Lake's most marketable attraction, along with the rumored no-new addition in '07, have on Geauga Lake and it's attendance figures?

So yeah, I'm against PKI getting the only thing holding Geauga Lake together. With multiple ride-removals since the Cedar Fair take over and no new attractions to replace them, I'm having a hard time seeing how this could end well. Then again this is just from a Dominator employee who received complaints, claiming that there was nothing to do, almost everytime X-Flight was closed.

I can only pray this is a bad rumor, because if Geauga Lake digs itself any deeper, it's nothing but hell!

[WooferBearATL]

I don't know but I would like to see the numbers on season pass holders to tickets. I would bet ticket attendance is 3x of what the passes are.

Oh, it would easily be well over 3X the number of season pass holders. I would venture to say that attendance is roughly 10X or more than the number of season pass holders.

Season Pass holders just think that they have all the cloute they do at a park. Yes, granted they help a part but it's not the majority of it's business.

[ragerunner]

So from you estimates are you saying you think CP or KI have the better park revenue?

I think its very close. If its is very close then I see no reason why they should not invest financially into KI as they would CP - park wise. That would mean $20 million dollar rides every few years, etc... and would not include moving a used coaster from an under performing park (if that really happens).

The difference in total revenue isn't my estimate...it's what was reported by CF as part of the SEC disclosures prior to the Parmount acquisitions. (My guess was just trying to figure out how that difference broke down...) CP's revenue in 2005 was more than $100M more than KI's...so it's not a close amount at all--KI's revenue was about 40% lower than CP's. But again--CP is a destination resort, so they've got a lot wider revenue stream coming in.

There's a lot of ways that CF could really grow KI's revenue...a new campground, CF-owned hotels...and of course a really big one that no one would be real happy about

Thanks for your reply,

Yes CP does bring in about 100 million dollars more the KI, but, if you take out the revenue from the hotels, campground, indoor waterpark, marina, challenge park and Soak City I believe the parks make about the same revenue. I agree CF could really increase money flow if they charged a seperate admission to Boomerang Bay (KI guest would not like this - and neither would I). Also, while Cedar Point Resort may take in 100 million dollars more than KI they also have a lot more overhead expenses with the hotel operations, marina, etc... Although, KI may increase revenue since it appears the campgrounds are returning.

I guess my real point was, I wonder what each park clears after all expenses are paid each year? I do believe CP clears more than KI but I don't believe the difference is 100 million.

[harvesterofyoursorrow]

To put things more simply, could it be that Cedar Point attracts more business "after the gate." I have not been to Cedar Point but from what I have seen, don't they have a better selection of shops and food stores?

All of the people I know around here that go to CP buy T-Shirts and mugs because it is big to say, "I've been to Cedar Point!"

I know that at Kings Island all of our shops basically stock all of the same merchandise. Does CP have a better selection and range of merchandise that makes visitors actually want to buy more?

[PKIDelirium]

It's not that hard to have a better merch selection than that PKI has, lol.

That, and most of the shops are in I-Street and the one in Action Zone. All the others have gotten nuked (Outfitter Supplies, Rock Shop, etc) or are just small ones with the same stuff.

[flightoffear1996]

Yes I think their may be pretty many people that leave the park and eat down the street at Kings Island but at Cedar Point they seem to have a fair amount more of sit down restraunts for people to sit down.

[Discodude3737]

Cedar Point has greater monetary gains simply because it is a vacation destination more than anything else. I live in Cincinnati, and I have more merchandise from Cedar Point than from Kings Island. I have several unique items from Kings Island that I have kept because they are historical, but I don't regularly purchase a simple souvenir from Kings Island. Cedar Point items are reminders of vacations, where Kings Island is generally accepted as a local place.

[jzarley]

^ Exactly...and unless CF somehow transitions KI into a multi-day destination resort that's the way it will always be.

The flagship of the company is the Cedar Point Resort...KI is in that "second tier" of properties (along with Knotts Berry Farm and Wonderland). But, that's a lot better than being a third or fourth tier park

[Discodude3737]

Yes indeed. I see Cedar Fair helping, not harming, Kings Island. I really don't think they will put KI on the "back burner", so to speak. With the addition of the Great Wolf Lodge, hopefully Kings Island will begin to develop as more of a vacation destination.

[Kenban]

Here's a better question:

What affect do you think the removal of Geauga Lake's most marketable attraction, along with the rumored no-new addition in '07, have on Geauga Lake and it's attendance figures?

I don't believe that X-Flight is the most marketable attraction. I am pretty sure that the water park Wildwater Kingdom is what most guests visit the park for and it is what part of the park that is advertised the most. Really I don't think the removal of this one attraction would have that much of an impact on the attendance. The park drew in more guests 20 years ago when it was a family park with maybe one or two coasters then it is right now.

While the attendance is up at Geauga Lake its not up that much. Last time I saw numbers for the park it was only drawing a little over 700,000. I know the attendance is up so lets assume its 800,000 now. Average per guest spending for Cedar Fair is around $40. Considering that GL has the lowest admission price of the chain I doubt that it is that high but thats what I am going to use anyways. So the park total might bring in around 32 million a year. Considering the size of the park I would be surprised if it could run on that little let alone all of the money that has been spent in the last few years. In 2005 the water park was built which cost 24 million. Then this year Tidal Wave Bay was added which cost 5 million. Even if nothing is added for 2007 Steel Venom still ripped itself apart and is going to be very expensive to fix.

I wish I knew how much it cost to run Geauga Lake I am pretty sure the park is losing money but I have to wonder just how much.

[BoddaH1994]

I doubt it's loosing money, however I would agree that it doesn't make enough money for the effort put into it.

Fundamentally speaking, this is what we have. Kinzel said that the park is too big for its revenue. That's almost inarguably true. If most people come for the waterpark, just bank off of that. It's sad to see a tradition like Geauga go, but unfortunately this is business.

[The Interpreter]

Kenban, you are apparently assuming only one attraction will be removed from the dryside of Geauga Lake. Given Kinzel's comments, I believe that may very well prove to be a dubious assumption.