Question for the natives...

[scotty]

OK Islanders, I have a question for you. I am a long timer lurker and seldom poster. I live smack dab in the middle of Cedar Point and Geauga Lake. I have had a season pass to (P)KI for 4 or 5 years, and was also there in 1972 when the opened (I was 5). My question is this:

Many years it has been argued over the years as to which was the better park. CP or PKI. There were a lot of valid arguments for both sides. So far, most of what I have scene on here seems to be mostly Anti-Paramount, Pro-Cedar Fair. Am I wrong?

Here is my $.02. As a long time "junky" of Cedar Point, I can tell you, You are in for a good time. I know there are those on here who have never been, or even some in Ky, that have never HEARD of Cedar Point! Don't laugh, I drive truck out of Morehead, Ky (1 hour east of Lexington). You would not believe the people that never heard of CP. I showed them pics and video clips of Dragster on my laptop and they almost flipped!

Personally, I liked the feel of PKI. I liked the entusiasm of the pre-recorded female voice you heard when you walked in to the gate. I like the way she said "enjoy you day, at Paramounts King's Island!!". The enthusiasm in her voice was awesome, and it made you feel you were in a special place. Of course, I am sure you frequent visitor's hated it. I also liked the white and blue "Paramount Park" name tags. They were cool.

Ok, It is after 12, and I got to get to bed... I have to get up early. ope to hear some good responses when I awaken.

[Outdoor Man]

my $.02...

For the most part I think you're correct. Most of the KIC posters are anti-Paramount. In my own unqualified opinion Paramount was a good owner from the thrill standpoint. If you look at the world-class rides that were added on their watch you can't refute what they did for nation-wide recognition of the park.

- Flight of Fear- record holder when opened

- Drop Zone- first rotating drop in the midwest

- Son of Beast- terrible coaster, but a record holder nonetheless.

- Delerium

- Tomb Raider, the Ride

- Nick Universe

- Fearfest

- Winterfest

etc...

Partially, their mistakes were- thinking that they could replicate the "hollywood" success pioneered by Disney and Universal.... they blurred lines, or just flat out ignored the theme areas of the park... and allowed areas of the park to go into disrepair and lack of use (see Flight Commander pad).

I think all would agree that the Paramount years will mostly be remembered as positive days for the park. The positives outnumber the negatives. KI was kept in pace as a premier national thrill park- and they occassionally listened to the public... even when it didn't always benefit them.

[BoddaH1994]

Just think... ten years from now you're going to be telling an unbelieving eight year old about how the Paramount Movie Studios once owned the park..

[Browntggrr]

Most of the KIC posters are anti-Paramount.

- Flight of Fear- record holder when opened

- Drop Zone- first rotating drop in the midwest

- Son of Beast- terrible coaster, but a record holder nonetheless.

- Delerium

- Tomb Raider, the Ride

- Nick Universe

- Fearfest

- Winterfest

etc...

Actually, if you search many of the forum topics before the sale announcement, many here at KIC were very pro- Paramount. Most here were not around in the late 70's and early 80's.

And as for the rides that Paramount put in, some were record holders, but records mean as much as the paper they are written on- the SFMM vs. CP coaster war defines that. Other rides like FoF, even though the PKI version opened before PKD's (I believe) it still is a cookie cutter ridewhich takes away for it's uniqueness.

You also can't credit Paramount for Winterfest or FearFeast. They actually cancelled Winterfest for many years, and then made a lame attempt to bring it back for one season. And FearFest was an event that all parks were doing to bring in more people usually when the park was closed or very slow at the end of the season. It's not like Paramount was the only park that had the idea.

Paramount did some good things, which is why the attendance stayed consistant. They made the park attractive to families with both thrill and family rides, which was a great marketing stratagy with CP to the North. Overall, I just would have liked to have seen Paramount stay consistant with their enthusiasm of a ride that was 3 years old as well as the new ride for the year.

[Dane]

Most of the KIC posters are anti-Paramount.

Overall, most KIC users were in favor of Paramount. There was just a general outcry towards the months leading up to the Paramount Parks sale that there was a overall disliking for Paramount and what they we (or weren't) doing.*

I believe Cedar Fair has done a great job of cleaning up what damage the late months of Paramount created.

*Statements based on statistical data recorded last year around May 22, and Mid June from the KIC homepage.

[CoastersRZ]

Well, to be fair, I think one of the biggest gripes that people had about Paramount was its lack of attention to the theming of a ride several years after it was built. Which is a valid criticism.

In all honesty, for the first part of 2006, the park wasn`t owned by Viacom but CBS, following their split. CBS in hopes of getting rid of the parks did not want to spend extra money on the parks so they cut corners. Cuts that showed through to the paying customers. I think a lot of people will agree that Paramount (when it was alone or with Viacom) was much better at managing the parks than what CBS was.

[Captain Picard]

The turning point for me was when they wasted time and money on Winterfest and not doing what needed to be done. The repairs Cedar Fair is doing now needed to be done back then.

If there is not enough people showing on a cold day in the spring to stay open how is there going to be enough in the winter?

[Lauch]

Honestly, I went to Kings Island every year back in the 80s. Several times a year in fact. What really got me when Paramount took over was the blatant cross promotion for Paramount movies.

Top Gun was a good ride, but too short. Tomb Raider was great, but too branded for the movie. I remember getting so hyped up for The Vortex when it first came out. This was a great ride, and it stood on its own, without movie references.

While I understand the business of promoting their product, I think that when you make a great ride, it should stand on its own. I'm looking forward to the park being more about the park and less about movies and characters.

Somebody else really hit home in another post a while back, when they mentioned the clown band that used to roam the park. That sorta thing was what I looked forward to. Son of Beast was their one true standalone, but even then, it was promoted with The Beast. Make a coaster and make it good...create new shows..new events..a clean park..and I'll remember the park for the park's sake..not for the company that owns it.

[Browntggrr]

Top Gun was a good ride, but too short.

Paramount really had nothing to do with the planning of TG. They just themed the ride.

[PKIDelirium]

Remember that Top Gun (Thunder Road) was designed to fit in place with the monorail there, which is why the placement seems a little odd now.

[CoastersRZ]

Well, more like its placement was designed with the monorail in mind. The ride is nearly identical to Vortex at Canada`s Wonderland, which opened up there in 1991.

[SOB_TOM]

Actually, Paramount made a great effort at Winterfest (look at Toy Factory). The problem was it wasnt generating enough profit to make it executable for future years.

I was anti-Paramount because they would take a decent ride, theme it, and then let the theming go to rot. Look at Gun. You never see theming on it anymore. TRTR is another great example. The ride is good (with theming,) but now the theming is starting to fall apart to the point that antechamber is never used (staffing has things to do with that as well, but the door show doesnt work.)

[Skywriter]

Actually, Paramount made a great effort at Winterfest (look at Toy Factory). The problem was it wasnt generating enough profit to make it executable for future years.

I was anti-Paramount because they would take a decent ride, theme it, and then let the theming go to rot. Look at Gun. You never see theming on it anymore. TRTR is another great example. The ride is good (with theming,) but now the theming is starting to fall apart to the point that antechamber is never used (staffing has things to do with that as well, but the door show doesnt work.)

When I went last time I seen no themeing problems everything was wroking right like the day it opened. Even the eyes on the Statue was wroking the door opened by it's shelf and The video and ride time was perfect.This was when Cedar Fair took over.I really wish the Themeing would work on Top Gun I think it would draw more people and it feel like a actual ride more than a 5 min hike to a 1:20 sec ride.

[Captain Nemo]

So far, most of what I have scene on here seems to be mostly Anti-Paramount, Pro-Cedar Fair. Am I wrong?

Well, while you make a great point, the forums have their pro- Paramount and/or Cedar Fair users and anti- Paramount and/or Cedar Fair users. Up untill around the time (as Dane said) Paramount was selling the parks some resentment grew but I beleave that after this 2007 season most of us will like the changes.

[scotty]

I have to laugh whe I read the parts about Paramount letting the theming "rot away". Anyone who rode Disaster Transport in it's early years, and recently would know why. When it opened, It had extremely long lines. Each indoor room had sight's to see while you waited, and waited and waited. There was a robot behind a control panel, a robotic arm "welding" a train (similar to the one you ride on) and other things to see. Now, a lot of it is gone. Even on-ride, there was way more too see. There have been times I have rode it over the years, where it was PITCH BLACK. Absolutely NOTHING to see the entire ride. These days, I usually only ride it if it starts to rain.

CF seems to be theming better than what the did in the past. Dragster and Maverick are examples of that. But look at Millennium Force, Magnum, Wicked Twister, Mantis and Raptor. All are great rides, but have no theming.

While I am a thrill seeker like the next guy, I also like to take a leisurely stroll through a park (usually when I am there by myself) and look at a lot of the over looked attractions, like Town Hall Museum at Cedar Point and The Paramount Story at PKI. To me, this type of thing really ads class to a park. I know a lot of the younger crowd consider it a waste of space, and would rather have something else there, but these type of things add that "something for everyone" to the park.

I have been to the 4 east coast Paramount Parks. I really had a good time at each one, and they all had something unique to offer. PCW had a pretty nice show that was monster themed, but was more funny than scary. PKI had an ice skating show in the Paramount theater that stands out too. Cedar Fair shows have improved over the years. I hated to see the HUGE IMAX screen go, but the Snoopy ice skating show has been a pretty good replacement.

When it comes to parks, I am a history buff. I hate to see things removed or changed. I absolutely LOVE looking at historical photos and videos of parks. Some of the rides they had back in the day are amazing. Enchanted Village is a perfect example. While I never rode it personally, I would give anything to go back in time, and try it. Cedar Point still has the Frontier lift station back by town hall. Every time I see it, it makes me miss it more and more. For those not in the know, it was taken out to make room for Iron Dragon. I like the old pictures of KI, where they had a lift going over the fountain in front of the Eiffel Tower.

Oh well, enough of the rant. Try as I might, I can not bring back the past. Out with the old, in with the new. Even though I am still living in the 80's.

[Browntggrr]

I have to laugh whe I read the parts about Paramount letting the theming "rot away". Anyone who rode Disaster Transport in it's early years, and recently would know why.

First, CP does not declare themselves a "Theme Park" like Paramount did. Yes, Disaster Transport has not recieved the TLC that is needed to keep up with it's themeing, but there is no reason to. The ride is horrible now, it was horrible as Avlanche Run, and it was horrible when it first opened as Disaster Transport. From Dick Kinzel himself:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...338/-1/BUSINESS

And as far ar the theming for TTD: one of the wheels broke off it's first year. All the themeing was removed for safety reasons, not due to lack of attention.

[scotty]

I have to laugh whe I read the parts about Paramount letting the theming "rot away". Anyone who rode Disaster Transport in it's early years, and recently would know why.

First, CP does not declare themselves a "Theme Park" like Paramount did. Yes, Disaster Transport has not recieved the TLC that is needed to keep up with it's themeing, but there is no reason to. The ride is horrible now, it was horrible as Avlanche Run, and it was horrible when it first opened as Disaster Transport. From Dick Kinzel himself:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...338/-1/BUSINESS

And as far ar the theming for TTD: one of the wheels broke off it's first year. All the themeing was removed for safety reasons, not due to lack of attention.

I am well aware of the theming on Dragster. I was there on opening day. I did not mention Dragster in the coasters that do not have theming. I mentioned (in order) Millennium Force, Magnum, Wicked Twister, Mantis and Raptor. I would conside the Christmas Tree, guard rail, concession stand and bleachers very nice theming. Anyone who has been to Norwalk for racing would feel right at home in the Dragster area. Dragster and maverick has nice theming. My point was, DT had it, and it went to crap. The next 5-6 didnt have any, and Dragster and maverick are themed.

[RingMaster]

I have to laugh whe I read the parts about Paramount letting the theming "rot away". Anyone who rode Disaster Transport in it's early years, and recently would know why.

First, CP does not declare themselves a "Theme Park" like Paramount did. Yes, Disaster Transport has not recieved the TLC that is needed to keep up with it's themeing, but there is no reason to. The ride is horrible now, it was horrible as Avlanche Run, and it was horrible when it first opened as Disaster Transport. From Dick Kinzel himself.

...so if riders were unimpressed and he said "that ended [his] theming", then why didn't they just tear down the ride back in the day and replace it with another record-breaker? If this is a hint that CF wants to remove ALL theming from the themed rides at the Paramount Parks, then they just got rid of a good half, maybe three-quarters, of their attendance, just from the five Paramount Parks.

I mean, yeah, creating a white-knuckle thrill ride that breaks records is the main gist of an amusement park like Cedar Point, but if you can THEME it to an idea, a movie, an animal, or even a comic book, and actually THEME it (just naming it after something is not considered theming *cough*Raptor*cough*), then you've just created an all-new experience that guests can enjoy for years to come.

Perfect example is the HULK coaster at Islands of Adventure. First things first, no one here can say that this ride doesn't count because, oh, it's at a Universal park. For starters, the ride was made by the same developers behind a few of the more popular coasters at Cedar Point (Raptor, Mantis, Iron Dragon), so, of course, props to IOA there. They also made the ride a record-breaker by it being the world's first to introduce a launched lift hill instead of a traditional chained lift (the next coaster to use this would be, like, ten feet away as Revenge of the Mummy, but with a different coaster company). But people recognize and remember this coaster best when viewed from the perspective of the icon the ride is based off-the HULK. Guests feel exactly like Bruce Banner when he transforms into his massive and deadly alter-ego once they gain speed all-too-quickly and blast out of the angled tunnel and suddenly careening through three inversions back-to-back. It's little theming nuances that help parkgoers feel like they really ARE part of a completely separate world of a movie or a comic book.

Which is why I think, however only a slight advantage, Dollywood's Mystery Mine will be the favorite over CP's Maverick. Sure, there's somewhat a theme to Maverick (a "sheriff" keeping a close eye on Frontiertown) and it's apparent that there will be some neat scenery included with the package, but it still kinda sticks out like a sore thumb and doesn't really set a theme that guests can remember from time to time. Mystery Mine, on the other hand, does a great job of hiding some of its track with elaborate theming...even though you can clearly see its inversions when walking towards it. But, once again, there's an ongoing theme that everyone can take with them and experience a story unlike anything before (the haunted mines teeming with hundreds of crows that's hiding some nasty secrets), as well as providing thrills to those who would like a white-knuckler at a park like Dollywood.

My guess is, and this is only a guess, that this is about to be a quick end to smaller amusement parks attempting themed thrill rides similar to Universal/Disney (minus the massive funding from the two corporations), now that Cedar Fair has grabbed a hold of the reigns to the Paramount Parks. This could possibly be the last attempt at bringing back the bigger-faster-better montage CF is known for now that Six Flags has, unofficially, dropped out of the competition, and they have a few more parks with more than enough land to produce some world-class record-breakers. Dang, so much for an Indiana Jones Adventure-style dark ride or even a Spiderman clone.

[CoastersRZ]

I wouldn`t be so fast to jump out and say that Cedar Fair is going to throw all the family friendly aspects that Paramount was applying into the waste bin. Because as Paramount found out, they can bring in more money from families than they could with teens who were riding the white knuckle rides.

Theming has its place. Regional parks like Cedar Point and Kings Island would never get the kind of themed rides that parks down at Universal and Disney get because of one thing. Attendance. Those parks attract the attendance, and in turn, revenue, to be able to build the rides with the level of theming that one comes to expect from those places. Regional parks like CP and KI are limited by the fact that they are seasonal parks and can`t attract visitors year round to pay off the massively themed rides.

That being said, I think that Maverick is a nice themed ride that will be a great addition to Cedar Point. To be honest, I would much rather have gotten a ride with theming like Maverick, then one like IJ, which just screams cheap theming. But that could be the fact that the "cheap" theming replaced what was a tranquil area of Kings Island.

I think that Cedar Fair will continue to build roller coasters at its parks in the future. But I doubt it will be at the pace that we saw in the 1990s. And they will likely continue to focus on family attractions between installing the white knuckle thrill rides. After all, families do bring in a lot of money for the parks. After all, Cedar Fair is nearly $2 billion in debt, and needs to cater to the group that has the deepest pockets to help them pay off their debt from purchasing the Paramount Parks.

[Cory Butcher]

Don't ever say never on the theming bit! Where there is a will and ingenuity most anything can be accomplished, especially in business. Where preperations and successes are nothing more than applied logic and guidelines. There would be a way to offer theming at a regional park, the means just have to be determined and the ends experienced. The right business model, and ideas and sooner or later you will see more theming at your regionals. Many, many years ago, they said we wouldnt get to space...last I checked we did that. (Im not even touching the whole moon landing thing, lol, cause someone will argue). The point is, Never and impossible are words that have meant nothing in Humanity's history, but the beginning of great things to prove them wrong. These two words are very important in that they are constantly challenged and that is what keeps life Changing! I believe that theming will take a more important role in all parks in the future, especially when most of us, the paying customers, like theming!

If you can dream it, you can theme it!

[Browntggrr]

...so if riders were unimpressed and he said "that ended [his] theming", then why didn't they just tear down the ride back in the day and replace it with another record-breaker? If this is a hint that CF wants to remove ALL theming from the themed rides at the Paramount Parks, then they just got rid of a good half, maybe three-quarters, of their attendance, just from the five Paramount Parks.

CP was not going to rip out DT because it was a bad ride. It was just not the thrilling ride they thought they were getting. Avlanche Run had a price tag of $7.4 million, then add in the $4 million for the building & themeing for the change to DT and CP had a oversized starter coaster for the little kids.

But for the $11 million they poured into it, it made more sense to keep it up than rip it out.

CP is using the same method of thinking currently with SoB. Instead of ripping it out, try and make it work.

As far as keeping up with the themeing, Paramount certainly did not try to keep theirs up at all. Just look at TR it's first year compared to last year. At least DT has been around for more than 10 years and the themeing went to the dogs. TR has been around for less than 5 and it's themeing is not even close to what it used to be.

[StuckInAVORTEX]

Perfect example is the HULK coaster at Islands of Adventure. First things first, no one here can say that this ride doesn't count because, oh, it's at a Universal park. For starters, the ride was made by the same developers behind a few of the more popular coasters at Cedar Point (Raptor, Mantis, Iron Dragon), so, of course, props to IOA there.

Ummm.. Just for information purposes, Hulk, Mantis and Raptor were built by B&M.. Iron Dragon was built by Arrow.

[jzarley]

I wouldn`t be so fast to jump out and say that Cedar Fair is going to throw all the family friendly aspects that Paramount was applying into the waste bin. Because as Paramount found out, they can bring in more money from families than they could with teens who were riding the white knuckle rides.

Theming has its place. Regional parks like Cedar Point and Kings Island would never get the kind of themed rides that parks down at Universal and Disney get because of one thing. Attendance. Those parks attract the attendance, and in turn, revenue, to be able to build the rides with the level of theming that one comes to expect from those places. Regional parks like CP and KI are limited by the fact that they are seasonal parks and can`t attract visitors year round to pay off the massively themed rides.

That being said, I think that Maverick is a nice themed ride that will be a great addition to Cedar Point. To be honest, I would much rather have gotten a ride with theming like Maverick, then one like IJ, which just screams cheap theming. But that could be the fact that the "cheap" theming replaced what was a tranquil area of Kings Island.

I think that Cedar Fair will continue to build roller coasters at its parks in the future. But I doubt it will be at the pace that we saw in the 1990s. And they will likely continue to focus on family attractions between installing the white knuckle thrill rides. After all, families do bring in a lot of money for the parks. After all, Cedar Fair is nearly $2 billion in debt, and needs to cater to the group that has the deepest pockets to help them pay off their debt from purchasing the Paramount Parks.

An excellent post, CoastersRZ...

I agree, I'd rather have a ride that starts out with a modest theme (i.e., Maverick) and does it well, rather than an attempt at Disney/Universal theming and falling extremely short (i.e., IJST).

That all goes back to my major complaint about the Paramount Parks (over promising and under delivering) and the yearly pronouncements that KI was going "to be the Disney of the mid-west." It should only take someone a few seconds with a calculator to realize KI can never be a park like Disney--it just doesn't make financial sense.

A ride like Tower of Terror (Disney) or Spiderman (IOA) reportedly cost in the neighborhood of $80-100M to build. For a company like Disney, whose parks & resorts division did $9.925 BILLION in revenue last year, that's a reasonable long-term investment. However, when the entire Cedar Fair company (including all the former Paramount Parks) did $831.4 MILLION in revenue, trying to compete on that scale makes absolutely no sense. (To put in in perspective, Disney's Parks & Resorts profit was almost twice the amount of CF's total revenue...) So, obviously it makes sense that the attractions would be of a different scale...

[ragerunner]

I think comparing the income and theming potential for a park like KI to Disney or Universal is, well stupid. But, I still believe that KI and CF can pull off the same level of theming as Dollywood, Busch Gardens Europe, or a Silver Dollar City. All these parks have lower attendance than KI and I am sure don't have incomes any bigger than KI.

So my question is, why can't KI or CF create theming on the level of these parks? They have B&M's and great dark rides, and well themed areas and attractions. It doesn't seem to be a situation were either you theme with a Disney budget or you do little or no theming as CF has done in the past.

There is a middle ground, I just hope KI is allowed to be in that middle ground.

[jzarley]

I think comparing the income and theming potential for a park like KI to Disney or Universal is, well stupid.

That was kind of the point of my whole post...they're different types of parks that have different expectations and potential based on their scale.

PKI (or, at least one individual previously employed by them) was the one who kept inviting (and promising) the Disney comparisons. A much more realistic goal would have been "we're going to be the Busch Gardens (or Dollywood) of the Midwest."

Of course there's middle ground. I think Xcelerator at KBF and (hopefully) Maverick at CP will be a move in that direction.

[ragerunner]

My real concern with CF from the beginning of the take over talks was, will they treat KI like they do Dorney, Valleyfair, or Worlds of Fun. Were very little attention is paid to theming the ride, themed areas, and overall family attractions. It just concerns me that most of CF parks have no dark rides at all, and really focus on a midway type look. KI was not designed nor is it a midway type park (even its midway, Coney Island) is a theme. I also feel that they have regressed KBF's theming and feel as well.

With that said, it gives me hope that when they purchased the Paramount parks they understood that they were more like theme parks not amusement parks. Hopefully we will see more Mavericks with themed jobs, some dark rides, and water coasters, then just Mantis' with concrete.

[Browntggrr]

I think comparing the income and theming potential for a park like KI to Disney or Universal is, well stupid. But, I still believe that KI and CF can pull off the same level of theming as Dollywood, Busch Gardens Europe, or a Silver Dollar City. All these parks have lower attendance than KI and I am sure don't have incomes any bigger than KI.

Even though KI may get more people through the gate, the amount that each guest spends in the park is also drastically different as well. BGE is more expensive than KI for food (but the food is also better) & novelty items (KI isn't even close to what Busch has to offer). The per person spending is probably about $27 at KI vs. $50 + at BGE. (These are not hard facts, just a wild stab that I threw out there)

BGE is also open 26 days more than KI.

KI may bring in the people, but there is no doubt that BGE brings in more money.

[ragerunner]

I think comparing the income and theming potential for a park like KI to Disney or Universal is, well stupid. But, I still believe that KI and CF can pull off the same level of theming as Dollywood, Busch Gardens Europe, or a Silver Dollar City. All these parks have lower attendance than KI and I am sure don't have incomes any bigger than KI.

Even though KI may get more people through the gate, the amount that each guest spends in the park is also drastically different as well. BGE is more expensive than KI for food (but the food is also better) & novelty items (KI isn't even close to what Busch has to offer). The per person spending is probably about $27 at KI vs. $50 + at BGE. (These are not hard facts, just a wild stab that I threw out there)

BGE is also open 26 days more than KI.

KI may bring in the people, but there is no doubt that BGE brings in more money.

I have no idea which parks has the most income (I sure you don't either). But, since KI is open 26 days less, their operational expense are probably less than BGE.

My main point is, seasonal theme parks like Dollywood, BGE, and even european parks like Alton Towers, Phantasiland, and Europa Park seem to do very well in providing park patrons with great thrill ride, and great family rides all in a well done themed environment. I just hope CF realizes that they can do the same, if they want, and KI is already well on its way at being a great theme park.

[Purplehaze]

2005 Forbes report.