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Because the immunity from previous infection does not last. The last study I saw was 180 days of antibodies. Then you’re at risk just like the non-vaxed.

Also private business can ask for anything. If you don’t like it then that’s fine. My private college demanded our vaccination record because they didn’t want me being measles mumps or rubella on campus.


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On 9/30/2021 at 11:48 PM, shark6495 said:

Because the immunity from previous infection does not last. The last study I saw was 180 days of antibodies. Then you’re at risk just like the non-vaxed.

Also private business can ask for anything. If you don’t like it then that’s fine. My private college demanded our vaccination record because they didn’t want me being measles mumps or rubella on campus.


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As I will respect your thoughts on this, I believe the Israel study disputes this.  I think the Cleveland Clinic also did a study on this that contradicts your statement.  I am not a scientist, I don't play one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I, in my opinion, would tend to think natural immunity would be greater than a vaccine in any case.  I remember when my daughter was young and we took her to a friends because their son had chicken pox.  There was not a vaccine at the time and kids do m=better with the handling of this, so better to get here immune.  Why is this different?  I don't know, but I would think it should be better. Don't take this as the chicken pox are the same, they aren't.  I don't know any have died from the pox, this is different, I understand that. I think the studies that are out may show that, but it depends on where you look for the info.  The study from Israel shows that you are 6 to 13 times more likely to get infected with the vaccine, compared to those who have had COVID.  

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/312637

 

Personally, everyone I know that has had COVID and recovered and got the vaccine, has become very sick.  All have been down for at least a week and a couple for 3 weeks and hospitalized.  We are not seeing that anywhere, are we?  I am not saying that everyone who has had COVID will get sick from the vaccine, it is just that all that I know have.  You can draw your own conclusions from that.  

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39 minutes ago, alsoran said:

Personally, everyone I know that has had COVID and recovered and got the vaccine, has become very sick….I am not saying that everyone who has had COVID will get sick from the vaccine, it is just that all that I know have.

Like you said, not everyone who has had COVID and then gets the vaccine will become sick. Two members of my family fall into that category, both had COVID, both later got vaccinated…neither had any real complications besides a sore arm. 
One day down the road I think scientists will have more knowledge of why the vaccine, and COVID affects some people more than others. 

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1 hour ago, alsoran said:

As I will respect your thoughts on this, I believe the Israel study disputes this.  I think the Cleveland Clinic also did a study on this that contradicts your statement.  I am not a scientist, I don't play one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I, in my opinion, would tend to think natural immunity would be greater than a vaccine in any case.  I remember when my daughter was young and we took her to a friends because their son had chicken pox.  There was not a vaccine at the time and kids do m=better with the handling of this, so better to get here immune.  Why is this different?  I don't know, but I would think it should be better. Don't take this as the chicken pox are the same, they aren't.  I don't know any have died from the pox, this is different, I understand that. I think the studies that are out may show that, but it depends on where you look for the info.  The study from Israel shows that you are 6 to 13 times more likely to get infected with the vaccine, compared to those who have had COVID.  

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/312637

 

Personally, everyone I know that has had COVID and recovered and got the vaccine, has become very sick.  All have been down for at least a week and a couple for 3 weeks and hospitalized.  We are not seeing that anywhere, are we?  I am not saying that everyone who has had COVID will get sick from the vaccine, it is just that all that I know have.  You can draw your own conclusions from that.  

There is one big difference between vaccination and natural infection.  You may be betting your life on it:

“While a natural infection may induce maturation of antibodies with broader activity than a vaccine does—a natural infection can also kill you,” says Michel C. Nussenzweig, the Zanvil A. Cohn and Ralph M. Steinman professor and head of Rockefeller’s Laboratory of Molecular Immunology. “A vaccine won’t do that and, in fact, protects against the risk of serious illness or death from infection.”

https://www.rockefeller.edu/news/30919-natural-infection-versus-vaccination-differences-in-covid-antibody-responses-emerge/

I would also point out that the study in Israel has NOT been peer reviewed as referenced in your link.  I believe it also only looked at the Phiser vaccine and seemed to be concentrating on the Delta variant.  There is a reason studies are peer reviewed.  (https://lib.byu.edu/faq/244739/)

"The study relies on data from Israel's Maccabi Health Services, and was conducted by researchers from Maccabi and Tel Aviv University. A preprint of the study, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, was published last week on medRxiv."

It should also be pointed out that the it is better to get a vaccine even if you've been infected for the best results.

https://www.11alive.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/vaccine-comparison-natural-immunity-covid-19-verify/85-6b531cb8-b604-46ef-b575-7566a4a6699a

Those people you know who got sick after getting vaccinated and having it previously just shows how effective the vaccine is at inducing the body's immune system to an effective response.  Most people who didn't have COIVID had a reaction after the 2nd dose because the first dose trains their body to recognize the antigen.  I was relived when I had a reaction to the 2nd dose because it meant my body was ready to do battle with the disease and the vaccine had done it's job.

BTW, did any of them die?

https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/why-vaccine-side-effects-might-be-more-common-people-whove-already-had-covid-19

COVID affected me because my uncle died of it.  He refused to get vaccinated and his last days on this Earth were spend fighting for is life and in pain.  His last words were (as so many others have conveyed on a ventilator) "I wish I would have gotten the darn vaccination".  

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COVID affected me because my uncle died of it.  He refused to get vaccinated and his last days on this Earth were spend fighting for is life and in pain.  His last words were (as so many others have conveyed on a ventilator) "I wish I would have gotten the darn vaccination".  

 

I am sorry to hear about your uncle.  I have one of my best friends that passed due to COVID.  This is a very touchy subject as many look at this as an argument waiting to happen.  We have been so divided on the issue because of the lack of credible information.  Government forcing vaccines does not help promote the willingness to get it.  Ronald Reagan said (paraphrased) the scariest words to hear are, Hi, I'm from the government and I am here to help.  That raises questions in my mind as to why is our government pushing this?  

 

You have stated that the Israel research has not been peer reviewed, but has it been disputed?  Another question, can you find a study to show the antibodies are not effective?  I don't believe the CDC, Fauci, or the FDA.  I have reasons behind this, one of which is the FDA approval of the Pfizer vaccine was through Fauci's wife's company.  Conflict of interest?  Things are not adding up to me.  

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3 hours ago, alsoran said:

I am sorry to hear about your uncle.  I have one of my best friends that passed due to COVID.  This is a very touchy subject as many look at this as an argument waiting to happen.  We have been so divided on the issue because of the lack of credible information.  Government forcing vaccines does not help promote the willingness to get it.  Ronald Reagan said (paraphrased) the scariest words to hear are, Hi, I'm from the government and I am here to help.  That raises questions in my mind as to why is our government pushing this?  

 

You have stated that the Israel research has not been peer reviewed, but has it been disputed?  Another question, can you find a study to show the antibodies are not effective?  I don't believe the CDC, Fauci, or the FDA.  I have reasons behind this, one of which is the FDA approval of the Pfizer vaccine was through Fauci's wife's company.  Conflict of interest?  Things are not adding up to me.  

Thanks for the condolences and the same to you for your best friend.  I agree about the lack of credible information and will offer the following after some quick searching (read through it, I was surprised by somethings, especially that Reagan was quoting a Democrat!):

I'll cover the article and Fauci's wife first, the the Reaganism.

The fact that is not peer reviewed should make it suspect.  I can write and article and have it published to say that the sky is purple.  If the same article was peer reviewed then then peers would soon prove my findings inaccurate.  

As far as the Phizer vaccine and Fauci's wife, things are not adding up for you because the accusations are not true.  This can be found y a quick google search.  Here is what I found:

"In recent days, other users on Facebook have shared similar versions of the claim that have racked up hundreds of shares. But the posts are wrong. Grady is not involved with the FDA’s vaccine testing and approval. "

and

""Dr. Grady does not approve the conduct of any research protocol, and she has no input into the FDA process for issuing EUAs (emergency use authorizations)," the NIH told the Associated Press in May."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/08/30/fact-check-faucis-wife-has-no-role-vaccine-approval/5616304001/

"CLAIM: Dr. Anthony Fauci’s wife is the chief of bioethics and human subjects research at the National Institutes of Health. That means she’s the one who rubber stamps exceptions to normal drug and vaccine testing.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. The COVID-19 vaccines received emergency use approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, not the NIH.

THE FACTS: Throughout the pandemic, social media users have posted false and misleading claims involving Fauci and those around him. This week, posts emerged suggesting that the vaccines received rapid approval because of Fauci’s wife, Christine Grady, at the NIH."

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-170254166936

"Christine Grady, Dr. Anthony Fauci’s wife, is chief of bioethics at the National Institutes of Health Clinical Center. She isn’t involved in issuing emergency use authorizations for unapproved medical products. 
 
Grady teaches medical ethics and researches ethical issues related to medicine and clinical research, according to the National Institutes of Health. 
 
She does not have authority to approve the conduct of any research protocol, “and she has no input into the FDA process for issuing EUAs,” the NIH said.  "

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/21/viral-image/no-faucis-wife-didnt-issue-emergency-use-authoriza/

As far as the Reaganism.  You do realize that he was quoting a democrat right?

"Senator Edmund Muskie, Democrat from Maine, was reported to have said to a meeting of the U.S. Conference of Mayors in Chicago in early 1976,

The three most common lies are, “I put your check in the mail yesterday,” “I gave at the office” and “I’m from the federal government and I’m here to help you.”"

https://www.professorbuzzkill.com/reagan-terrifying-words/

I would argue that the companies that made the vaccine are, in fact, acting as participants in the capitalist system.  They are not freely giving the vaccine, exactly the opposite.  There is a profit motive behind the research and more than likely any nefarious reason for the government to push it would come from lobbyists from those companies driven by the almighty dollar.

 How do you feel when the fire department shows up to a fire?  or a paramedic shows up to take someone to the hospital?  How about the dozens of terrorist threats (foreign and domestic) that have been thwarted by the FBI?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

It appears to me that if Reagan was so bothered by the government and it's handling of things then why did he put so much of our tax dollars into it?

"Reagan significantly increased public expenditures, primarily the Department of Defense, which rose (in constant 2000 dollars) from $267.1 billion in 1980 (4.9% of GDP and 22.7% of public expenditure) to $393.1 billion in 1988 (5.8% of GDP and 27.3% of public expenditure); most of those years military spending was about 6% of GDP, exceeding this number in 4 different years. All these numbers had not been seen since the end of U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War in 1973."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics

(By the way, I'm still waiting on the "trickle down effect")

It is exactly the amount of red tape and checks and balances that make the government look ineffective that keep us from being under a dictatorship.  It all depends on your outlook.  Everyone picks on the United States Postal Service but I challenge you to go to a UPS or Fedex store and put a letter addressed to someone in California on the counter and 60 cents and let me know when it gets to it's destination.

The government may not be perfect but it's still the one I choose to live in and that's the greatest thing about our government.  Unlike other governments in other countries, if you don't like it here, you can move somewhere else.  That is the freedom that too many who are critical of our government takes for granted.

Aside from all this thanks for the discussion.  I believe the one thing we need nowadays is an exchange of ideas and the ability to discuss them and either grow our own assertions or take the opportunity to re-shape them.

 

 

 

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What a blessing that the difference in opinion here is able to be talked about and not a full fledged finger pointing argument.  The Fauci’s wife argument is a hidden agenda item probably not found in Google.  I was not the one to do the research, as I struggle with time, but the research was done by a good friend that I find trustworthy.  Anyway, I was utilizing the Reagan quote as a idea that we don’t need the government to take care of us.  We should be intelligent enough to make our own decisions based on facts we have available.  It will always be difficult to influence others when there is so much false doctrine available.  Best case we have is to take what we have and make our best educated decision.  I will always respect others opinions, even when it becomes difficult to show that in a post.  
 

I posted my comment about natural immunity to show there have been studies that show different.  Israel’s may not be peer reviewed, but I have seen 2 others as well that represent about the same thing.  I will not tell anyone they are wrong for getting the vaccine.  I just believe in antibodies, doesn’t mean anyone else has to.  It is my choice to feel this way, and if I am wrong, so be it.  If God calls me home because I get the virus again, so be it.  I am ready to go.  Proof shows the vaccine doesn’t provide immunity. Nobody asked the question why we changed the definition of the vaccine?  You can still get the virus and you can still pass it on.  I am in the age group that has a 99% survivability, so this is my belief in no need for a vaccine that we will not know what will happen in 5 years.  
 

Just a thought, they thought agent orange was safe at one time.  
 

Again, this is my opinion, nothing more.

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On 10/3/2021 at 4:37 PM, alsoran said:

What a blessing that the difference in opinion here is able to be talked about and not a full fledged finger pointing argument.  The Fauci’s wife argument is a hidden agenda item probably not found in Google.  I was not the one to do the research, as I struggle with time, but the research was done by a good friend that I find trustworthy.  Anyway, I was utilizing the Reagan quote as a idea that we don’t need the government to take care of us.  We should be intelligent enough to make our own decisions based on facts we have available.  It will always be difficult to influence others when there is so much false doctrine available.  Best case we have is to take what we have and make our best educated decision.  I will always respect others opinions, even when it becomes difficult to show that in a post.  
 

I posted my comment about natural immunity to show there have been studies that show different.  Israel’s may not be peer reviewed, but I have seen 2 others as well that represent about the same thing.  I will not tell anyone they are wrong for getting the vaccine.  I just believe in antibodies, doesn’t mean anyone else has to.  It is my choice to feel this way, and if I am wrong, so be it.  If God calls me home because I get the virus again, so be it.  I am ready to go.  Proof shows the vaccine doesn’t provide immunity. Nobody asked the question why we changed the definition of the vaccine?  You can still get the virus and you can still pass it on.  I am in the age group that has a 99% survivability, so this is my belief in no need for a vaccine that we will not know what will happen in 5 years.  
 

Just a thought, they thought agent orange was safe at one time.  
 

Again, this is my opinion, nothing more.

If your trusted friend thinks they are right they aren't really lying to you even if they are wrong. A trustworthy source can still be a bad one. I bet they mean well but may be doing more harm than good. Social media is a terrible source as well. Keep in mind Google merely finds information, it doesn't vet it. It also prioritizes info that draws clicks without regard for it's accuracy.

 

As far as antibodies go they are all natural since your body makes them itself. The vaccine causes a somewhat different reaction resulting in different antibodies but the end effect is the same. From all I've read the vaccine response is superior but doesn't last as long requiring a booster shot to keep antibodies active in the body. Antibodies from an infection last around a year while the vaccine lasts about 8 months. Having both is better than either alone.

 

Your chance of infection with the vaccine from Delta is around 30 percent. Eliminating 70 percent of the risk is still a good result. This also helps to stop the virus from mutating.

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10 hours ago, matt112986 said:

If your trusted friend thinks they are right they aren't really lying to you even if they are wrong. A trustworthy source can still be a bad one. I bet they mean well but may be doing more harm than good. Social media is a terrible source as well. Keep in mind Google merely finds information, it doesn't vet it. It also prioritizes info that draws clicks without regard for it's accuracy.

 

As far as antibodies go they are all natural since your body makes them itself. The vaccine causes a somewhat different reaction resulting in different antibodies but the end effect is the same. From all I've read the vaccine response is superior but doesn't last as long requiring a booster shot to keep antibodies active in the body. Antibodies from an infection last around a year while the vaccine lasts about 8 months. Having both is better than either alone.

 

Your chance of infection with the vaccine from Delta is around 30 percent. Eliminating 70 percent of the risk is still a good result. This also helps to stop the virus from mutating.

Exactly why I always try to find more than one source (for the Fauchi's wife I found 5).  Second, third and fourth opinions are a must when using Google.  This is where a peer reviewed article holds more merit than a non peer reviewed one.  Basically, the peers will either enforce or dispute the claims made in the article.

Often times I'll hear something and say "that doesn't sound right" a quick trip around the web from difference sources backs up my thought.  It's also important to hear opinions you may not agree with and not have blinders on when doing research.

As far as Natural vs Vaccine antibodies the end result seems to be the same.  One of the differences is a vaccine is targeted to a specific antibody where as in natural the body may form many different ones.  Also vaccines don't carry a risk of complications from exposure to a virus.

https://www.verywellhealth.com/antibodies-from-vaccines-and-from-natural-infection-5092564

As in the linked article from my previous post the best possible thing is to have had covid naturally and have the vaccine as well.  Heres another article discussing "hybrid immunity"

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/hybrid-immunity-people-covid-still-get-vaccinated-rcna1974

and one more

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals

The more you know......

 

 

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I wasn't sure if my last post made up, my phone fouled up.  Personally, I'm sick of the whole darn thing.  The masks are getting too hard to deal with for me.  I'm a copd'er now and have to wear it at work, and I just can't do it much longer.  Currently trying to decide what I'm going to do.  I resent people shaming me for not wanting to wear it.  Have an elephant sit on your chest while laying on your back, put a rope around your neck and tighten it, then put two masks over your mouth and cover your nostrils.  That;s how it feels to breathe with this some days.  Add a mask and its impossible.  3 months into my new job, and I have called off 3 times.  You can see what's probably gonna happen with me.  Yet I'm the selfish one for not wanting to wear it.  I'm pretty done with the whole thing.  See, I'm more worried about cancer.  In my family, its 100% fatal; with covid at least you have a chance.  I've lost my father, an uncle, an aunt and 2 cousins in the last 4 years from cancer.  4 people I know have passed due to covid, the most recent was a coworker.  In a few hours, my sister is having a double mastectomy.  I dont give a darn about covid right now.  If anyone is wondering, yes I'm vaccinated-but not by choice.  Since I took Moderna, I have no recourse if something happens later on

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  • 4 weeks later...

Ha it would never work here because Americans in the last 60-80 years have not been asked to sacrifice for the greater good. Plus the greed and me me me culture that grew during the 80s….. you’d have people cry about freedom of something while waiting on Covid results.


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15 hours ago, CoastersRZ said:

Is this a Canada`s Wonderland requirement or a requirement of the local government there?

I'd have to go out on a limb and say its a requirement of the local government, and I say this only because CF Corporate knows that if they tried it down here in this country with the people that populate it, it wouldnt end well for the overworked and undercompensated admissions employees.  Seriously, can you imagine what would happen if an 18-20 year old kid tried to "deny a person's personal liberties" by telling them they couldnt enter the park without a vax card?  And you know CF wont budget a team of actual Certified uniformed Police Officers at the gate to every park in the US to check IDs and cards.

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