SonofBaconator

Maybe I'm just the "play it safe" person but I don't understand the desire to want innovations- the coaster wars are over. I know I'm kinda contradicting myself since I made an "Innovations" thread a while back but I think there can be a little bit of both. Some manufactures can play it safe with their tried and true formula while others can innovate- both have their pros and cons. Advocating for the "play it safe" formula, if your company is making millions of dollars on the same rides then you don't really have the need to innovate. Sure you can fiddle around with designs here and there, change train types and such, but the overall formula is still present. Other companies can innovate all they want, but I don't understand the continued praise when their products have accidents, downtime, retracks, and occasionally fatalities. There's a reason why Cedar Fair has worked with B&M instead of Intamin this past decade.

Here's the room for the Theater scene where the pepper's ghost effect took place. To the top left is there the carriages are. The riders would be looking at the glass wall (right of the picture.) The black wall on the bottom left is where the characters went (there were also some up above). Finally there was glass on the right that made the effect work. You can even see it working now in the picture! http://www.dafe.org/articles/darkrides/phantomPharewell.html

Behind the scenes events typically don't cost parks much money since they're just showing people behind the scenes stuff so it would seem like a no brainer for to incorporate them into their off season schedule.

The title is a little clickbaity. There's been a lot of discussions regarding B&M and their desire to play it safe and stay with the same formula. That doesn't mean that they can still not create new designs. The Surf Coaster model is definitely an intriguing project. What ideas do you have for new B&M projects? I have a few: Have 6 train dive coaster with the layout of a traditional flloorless to make something like a higher capacity infinity coaster A low to the ground launched coaster A return to their old school hyper twister model that you see with Raging bull with modified trains. These aren't anything innovative or brand spanking new, just additions to their portfolio. The track design and trains would be the same as they have been.

It really kills me that this is the hardest scene to find any pictures or videos of and the Pepper's ghost effect is responsible for that. In order for Pepper's ghost to work the scene needs to be dark to allow for the characters to stand out. If anyone has pictures of this scene I would be extremely happy.

Pepper's ghost is basically like seeing your reflection in a department store window while still being able to look inside.

I've done some thinking and something like Helix would be great. I just don't want to get one and have it be constantly compared to Copperhead Strike. Make it different enough to stand out on its own.

I believe you are correct. Not that they won't look for an affordable option but their chain is all about quality over quantity. You started so see a gap after CF installed their 3 B&M gigas Carowinds: 2015-2019 Canada's Wonderland: 2012-2019 (I don't know how much WMG cost) Kings Island: 2020- (We probably won't see any signs of a coaster until at least 2023) I think we'll see Cedar Fair start to focus on their mid to smaller parks which will certainly bring B&M back into the question. B&M is always brought up when people discuss new coasters for California's Great America and Kings Dominion. Even if they're on the smaller side, these two parks need modern B&Ms. As for other chains I know Herschend had a B&M listed when they asked Silver Dollar City patrons what they wanted. Hershey just got a hyper this past year. B&M might not be producing a lot of US based coasters as frequently as they did pre pandemic but they have customers all over the globe. They'll be fine.

They probably don't see a need to innovative. They've manufactured so many coasters using the same restraints, track type, etc that they've pretty much perfected their own design. "If it ain't broke don't fix it." Why spend thousands of dollars in R&D when people are already spending millions of dollars on your current products? The smallest risk with the biggest reward for B&M is altering train designs on the same styled track. Companies like Intamin have built their legacy on innovation and ride diversity because that's what made them unique. Unfortunately this can have draw backs like ride malfunctions leading to downtime and high operating costs. B&M's might be considered formulaic, repetitive, and unoriginal but that's also what's made them successful. Their rides are reliable and have an overall good ROI. Enthusiasts might not like them but B&M has a tried and true business plan.

In all honesty though I understand what you're getting at but I don't think they're coming to an end. They're certainly not the manufacturer you want to go to when you're on a budget. I do think parks might go for more affordable companies like Vekoma, Gerstlauer, etc coming out of this pandemic. I wouldn't be surprised if Cedar Fair started installing more 4d freespins and maybe even sky rockets. I expect it'll be slow for B&M these next few years coming out of the pandemic but I don't think they're doomed. I'm sure there will be parks in Europe who will want their own Fury type coaster. Who knows, maybe this pandemic will encourage B&M to make new designs that are more affordable for smaller parks. They don't have a single coaster that features 2 across seating with exception to their family coaster and Steel Dragon's new trains.

Honestly a lot of fans have wanted to see Phantom Theater make a return ever since Paramount replaced it back in 2003. We've seen Cedar Fair return a ton of old favorites to parks across the chain and KI has been no exception. Could KI return this beloved attraction? I'd imagine it wouldn't return in its original form but just seeing the IP return would be enough for me. I'd even take a haunt attraction themed to the story or even walk around characters during the fall season.

I'm a firm believer in the quote "if you build it they will come." I understand CF might be content with MA but I think giving them some new thrill ride might boost attendance somewhat. They don't have to load the park up with new rides every year but its been too long. The last installation was Thunderhawk in 2008 and last ground up coaster was Mad Mouse in 1999. Surely they'd benefit from something new or relocated that would hold the park over for another decade or two.

A freespin would be cool but I consider them to be "in between" coasters that are put in between larger investments A S&S looper would be a more than suitable replacement for Vortex. I heard SC had issues but I'm not sure A Mack multilaunch would be cool as well but I would prefer it heavy on inversions like Helix A Mack spinner would be fresh and exciting A B&M dive would be cool if it was a mini that focused on inversions instead of height A B&M wing would be redundant honestly An RMC ground up would be nice but would it be compared with Steel Vengeance?

Its Canada's premier park located near the country's most populated city so success is guaranteed for them. I think CWL's main move should be removing rides that are old and painful. I never hear good reviews about Time Warp and Flight Deck is the only other SLC in the chain next to Thunderhawk at Michigan's Adventure. An invert would be a perfect replacement. Reliability is another thing. If CF could have RMC build for them in Canada I don't know that they would, considering the rumored rough start company has had with them back in 2018. Wildbeast and Minebuster opened with the park but I don't see a lot of nostalgia from park fans for either ride, but maybe I'm wrong. I honestly believe that if CF kept feeding them B&Ms, park goers wouldn't bat an eye. Getting reliable people eaters would justify the removal of older rides.

Most likely for what @kimv1972 said earlier. I came across this on KI History's Facebook page. Notice how it still says Tecumseh on it so its gotta still be the 80s. Who knows, but this might be the picture of them altering the stack. Also the domes used to be blue so perhaps they were painted red in this picture.

Kings Island is one of those parks that's extremely successful and historic throughout its existence. Its success can stem from it's perfect placement near big midwestern and southern cities like Cincinnati, Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis, Lexington, and Louisville. As of 2019 these cities have a combined metro population of 12,583,076 people and are experiencing 5.5% growth. To top that off, with exception to the 2020 covid season, Kings Island regularly breaks over 3 million visitors a year as a seasonal park. Concerning their rides, I don't believe there's a single defunct attraction that people don't miss (with maybe exceptions to SOB.) The park had many 1sts in the industry like with Racer, The Beast, the 1980s Bat, King Cobra, Vortex, and yes even Son of Beast. Even the park's modern coasters like Diamondback, Banshee, and Mystic Timbers are argued to be the best of their kind. Though we don't have a flat collection like Canada's Wonderland I still think Drop Tower, Delirium, WindSeeker and others are fun. The park itself is also constructed very well. Its extremely hard to get lost in and all the rides are easy to get to (maybe not The Bat). Our kids section was consistently ranked the best in the world for nearly two decades. Our water park is nice because its in its own area and not taking up in park space like you get at Canada's Wonderland, Kentucky Kingdom, or Kings Dominion. With all of that said I really don't know what there is to criticize. Yes we don't have crazy intense coasters like the young enthusiasts want and that's fine by me. I'd rather have something smooth, comfortable, and reliable that I can ride while I age as opposed to super intense ones that experience downtime that I won't be able to ride when I get older. I hate that whole "you hate us because you ain't us" mentality but I think that applies to us. We have an awesome giga coaster, a great hyper, an awesome invert, a great collection of wooden coasters, awesome supporting coasters, a great kids area, I could go on. The only thing I could see people criticizing fans for their unrealistically high expectations. For example I see people on Reddit posting about how we should have a dive, a wing, a flyer, a multi launch, and an RMC which I think is completely unnecessary. Other than that I think we're solid.

Its crazy to think that Yukon Striker will be 2 years old this summer. Under Cedar Fair, Canada's Wonderland has gotten a decent amount of coasters and in a lot of ways can be seen as Cedar Fair's testing ground. They were the 1st park to feature a hyper coaster with staggered trains, they were the 1st park to feature a B&M giga, the first triotech coaster, and the 1st B&M dive coaster with a vertical loop. While some people have considered these additions underwhelming in comparison to other additions across the chain, its evident that Cedar Fair likes to try out new things at this park. With that being said, what's the next coaster to come to Canada's Wonderland? I've heard a few ideas and speculations across the internet. A coaster in the back of the park over their White Water Canyon Something like a wing, flyer, or invert by B&M A modern GCI A launched coaster by Mack RMC either WB or MCMB (which would be really difficult given Canada's laws on contracting the own citizens for construction) I would be fine with any of the options above. The unfortunate thing about this park is that outside of their B&Ms, they don't have a lot of good supporting coasters like you see at KI or CP. Time Warp, Flight Deck, Minebuster, Wild Beast, and The Bat are all candidates for the chopping block as far as I'm concerned. You could take down Flight Deck and Time Warp for a B&M invert. If they're not replacing an existing coaster I think a Mack multi-launch would be a good fit towards the back of the park. There have been some people arguing that if they put a coaster over White Water Canyon it would have to be tall since ON-400 (the highway) runs parallel to the back of the park. What're some of your thoughts?

I take CS's criticisms with a grain of salt.

A72 was themed to Orion to a degree so is that included in Orion's theme?

Knott's thrives at being a true theme park so I don't think adding huge thrilling coasters like Magic Mountain does a lot for the park. On the other hand, just sticking with family rides also won't help; its a gray area. When I think of Knott's and what new thrilling coasters they could add, I can only think of one thing- smaller and compact. There are a handful of thrilling coasters that would fit this criteria like freespins and sky rockets. However SFDK has those two coasters in the bay area and SWSD has a sky rocket of its own. To be honest I don't know what coaster fits the Knott's mold. Some rides that come to mind are Sandy's Blasting Bronco or Timmy's Half-Pipe Havoc but those are Intamins and I don't know how Cedar Fair feels about working with them again. With that being said however, I think they're small enough to deserve a chance- unless of course Mack could make something similar.

I keep thinking Sea World is going to file for bankruptcy. SEAS had 5 new coasters to be built for the 2020 season and they weren't small orders either. The purchasing of 5 big coasters in one year reminded me of what Six Flags did in the early 2000s and look what happened there. No one could have accounted for the pandemic but I believe SEAS still owes money on some of their coasters. I keep wondering what will happen to the Sea World chain. Will they try to sell off all of their parks? Will they try to sell the Sea World parks and hang on to Sesame Place and the Busch parks and just rebrand to "Busch?" Would Disney be interested in SWO? Would Cedar Fair be interested in some parks? What about Herschend? So many questions

Which small coaster would attract the GP? Premier Sky Rocket II S&S 4D Freespin Mack Family Spinning Coaster ? Other?

Its crazy that 70% of their coasters feature inversions. A lot of their coasters are also pretty intense. Iron Gwazi has 12 airtime moments but I think they need a coaster that focuses on just airtime- no inversions.

If we're talking B&M: Look at the land Vortex occupies. I'm not an expert but I think putting a 200ft dive next to a 200ft hyper would look odd. I think something in the range of 150-170ft would work in that space. If the park would get a "dive" I argue it wouldn't be a large one that we've become accustomed to in North America but rather something like a traditional inversion heavy coaster with a holding break and a 90° drop. Going back to the wing model, while I think having one would be fun, it would be illogical for the park to get one. There are four wing coasters within a five hour radius of the area so it wouldn't make sense for us to get one. The best move would be for Cedar Fair to send one to Kings Dominion who would benefit from one way more than us. A flyer is plausible but I think Cedar Point would want one and have it break several records. They are arguably the most maintenance heavy B&Ms so I think KI would actively try to avoid that. Surf Coaster is another plausibility but the prototype coaster hasn't been built yet. Then there's the floorless. Yes I refer back to this a lot and I understand the arguments against it. The main reason I keep bringing it up is because of another coaster we got in 2014- Banshee. Before Banshee when was the last inverted coaster built in North America? The answer is 2006 when Worlds of Fun debuted Patriot. Now when was the last floorless built in North America? The answer is 2005 with Hydra the Revenge at Dorney Park. So I do believe its possible KI could add one. Will they do it? I have no clue, however I wouldn't count out the possibility. In terms of other manufacturers... The main one aside from B&M is of course Mack. I have no problem with getting a Mack, no problem at all. Something like Helix would be great. I'm just more concerned with the price tag. Macks are just as expensive as B&M but their track is manufactured in Germany. At least with B&M Cedar Fair can spend more on the actual ride as opposed to shipping since their track comes from literally the next county. Intamin is a no go given their past with CF. I'm sure they may reconsider in the future but that's a long shot for a company that has caused the chain significant issues. The same can be said for RMC. The manufacturer is currently retracking parts of Lightening Rod at Dollywood and unfortunately Steel Vengeance and Twisted Timbers did not start of well during their opening seasons. I'm not sure how comfortable Cedar Fair would be working with them at the moment. S&S can finally be another manufacturer we can throw in there since Kings Dominion is getting their 4d freespin. I have heard mixed reviews about Steel Curtain at Kennywood so I don't know if Cedar Fair would go to them so build a similar coaster.

There's been a ton of Kings Island advertisements in years past that feature Dominator from KD and Silver Bullet from Knott's Berry Farm. They're not advertising the specific coaster per se rather they're advertising the park