Kentucky Kingdom

[McSalsa]

Kentucky Kingdom's future is not looking bright right now...as I look at it, is there anything there that would justify a 1.5 hour car ride from central Indiana to Louisville to visit it? What do they have, even if the re-open all of it?

-A good wooden coaster that has been cloned a few times

-A dueling CCI wooden coaster that has been SBNO for several years and is likely in horrible shape. Needs serious work.

-A Vekoma SLC...blah, and these are uber common.

-Typical flat rides you can find in most parks...no thanks, both Kings Island and Holiday World have these, and they have far better coaster collections to boot (and in KI's case, much larger flats that can compete with roller coasters as well, such as Drop Tower or Delirium!).

-A medium sized water park...if I want a water park, I go to Santa Claus, Indiana, for their giant waterpark with TWO water coasters several massive water slides...KK can't compete here. Even KI's Soak City looks to have more to do.

Kentucky Kingdom, from this perspective, does not look to appealing...and this is even considering if they got it all to re-open, which now seems very unlikely. They would have to add something huge (not likely if they are struggling to re-open the park) or charge a dirt cheap price of around $20-$25 per ticket just to get me to even consider driving down there...granted, the nearby market would probably eat it up somewhat, but what's the point for anyone else? And how is this park supposed to make money and survive without a bigger market...

KK's main problem is, they have to go toe-to-toe with a huge regional park (Kings Island) and a beloved family park with 3 world-class wooden coasters and the baddest waterpark outside of Texas (Holiday World)...and do so with a limited selection of attractions that would not be signature rides at either KI or Holiday World...Ed Hart claims he wants to build a $15,000,000+ steel coaster for the park...where is that money going to come from, if they seem to be struggling just to get everything else working? And even if they do, what's to say it would irk Kings Island...one theory I heard about why Six Flags didn't invest too much into SFKK was because Kings Island made the massive Action Zone expansion in 1999/2000 with FACE/OFF, Drop Zone, and Son of Beast and it scared Six Flags to death (hehe, SOB should not have scared them in hindsight ) that whatever they added to SFKK, KI would match and beat...and the fair board would limit their additions, making KI's job easier. So they instead invested heavily in Worlds of Adventure...and went-head-2-head with Cedar Point instead, which had just added Millennium Force and was soon to build Wicked Twister and Top Thrill Dragster. (Makes me think though...could X-Flight, aka now Firehawk, have originally been intended for SFKK instead of Geauga Lake/later Kings Island?) Now, this is just a rumor I heard, but it does make SOME sense...save the "LET'S FIGHT Cedar Point INSTEAD!" part, unless 1990's and early 2000's Six Flags was really THAT dumb...granted it could also have just been Six Flags had too many parks, and could not add to all of them, so they were picking & choosing and KK got jipped.

I'll be clear- I would love to see KK re-open, and thrive. This would not only give me another good option for a nearby amusement park, but it would force Kings Island and Holiday World to build new stuff and work hard to stay competitive. But I seriously doubt it will happen now, I'd say I'm even 80%+ sure...my guess is when the deadline comes around, Hart will sadly reveal the truth, and KK will sell off all its old rides that still have any value (Kings Island could use the Flying Dutchman and Ferris Wheel if this happens, and could also pick up Deluge, their water coaster, for Soak City...all 3 would be welcome additions) and the park will be demolished for a shopping mall or something. Not what I want to happen to any park, but I'm being realistic, it probably will for this one...

Sorry for how long this post was. I just had a lot of stuff to say about the KK situation...thanks if you read the whole thing.

[Oldschool75]

What about Holiday World?, not really a pushover park.

[westcoaster]

Very well completed post: for the future of KK, yes HW, KI, two parks nearby, and great parks at that.

HW and KI having 3 great wooden coasters each for sure,

[The Interpreter]

Although much of what McSalsa has said is spot-on, Thunder Run was truly a world class wooden coaster. It was hobbled by one train operation, and its unused transfer track was even removed.

Twisted Sisters aka Twisted Twins were excellent rides. They are in very poor condition.

Chang was and is far superior to Mantis. It's also now in New Jersey.

During this assessment time, which Hart & Co. asked be extended, it is apt to be discovered that repair and rehabilitation costs have been greatly understimated. If that is not the case, why did they even ask for an extension? And why have we not heard more?

[McSalsa]

^
Hmm...I thought a bit more about what Terpy said...Thunder Run "world class"? I had heard it was quite good, but it rarely got mentioned alongside Voyage, El Toro, Beast, or Pheonix when people mention their favorite wooden coasters...it does look like good fun though, if it is running well.

Twisted Twins seems like a cool concept, but most of the polls I've seen, including the Mitch Hawker poll, had this ride very low on their lists, sometimes fairly near the bottom. I could see it being great like it was in its early years again with a good overhaul, though...since CCI built it, could Gravity Group come in, fix it up and modify it, and add Timberliners? That would be awesome...granted, they may throw in an inversion somewhere too like they did for Hades 360...

Green Lantern/Chang probably is better than Mantis. I was just using Mantis because, well, the two are similar in layout and color schemes with a few minor differences...I wonder, why is it the B&M Stand-Ups prior to Chang all seemed to stink, and then Chang comes along and is good, and then the ones that followed Chang were also good (I have heard Riddler's Revenge @ SFMM is supposed to be the best Stand-Up ever)? What did B&M change between Mantis (1996) and Chang (1997)? New restraints? New trains? I'm confused on that...BTW, I did see some comments on a POV of Great American Scream Machine that were bashing GL, but they may have just been people who missed GASM and would bash whatever they opened in that spot...

I also re-thought what it might take to get me to visit a re-opened KK again...if they can fix up their wooden coasters, and get them running well, and offer free/cheap drinks....$30 or cheaper (discount tickets would count towards this) seems OK for some fun wood coasters and ok-sized waterpark. They have to be cheaper than Holiday World, though- because HW has that exact same concept (Woodies+Waterpark being the main draw) and does it amazingly well. I still doubt any of it will ever happen, though, given the situation...

UPDATE: Previous post edited.

[TombRaiderFTW]

Chang was and is far superior to Mantis. It's also now in New Jersey.

*mutters something about the difference between being punched in the head and being punched in the head with boxing gloves on*

I'm not really getting my hopes up with Kentucky Kingdom. I think Terp's probably hit the nail on the head, although I think the fact that things are happening at the park is a good sign. The lack of communication is telling, but I'm thrown off by the fact that work is being done at all in the park. Time will tell, I guess.

[Creed Bratton]

Chang was and is far superior to Mantis. It's also now in New Jersey.

*mutters something about the difference between being punched in the head and being punched in the head with boxing gloves on*

I'm not really getting my hopes up with Kentucky Kingdom. I think Terp's probably hit the nail on the head, although I think the fact that things are happening at the park is a good sign. The lack of communication is telling, but I'm thrown off by the fact that work is being done at all in the park. Time will tell, I guess.

I agree.

The fact that there are things happening at the park, full timers in the park and positions sporadically popping up on their website (ala grounds person) throws me. However, I don't think there is anyone in the actual Public Relations/Marketing position. So that could be a factor of why we aren't hearing updates as often as we'd like. I mean, if you were trying to re-open a park, would you be constantly updating on the day to day happenings (I know some of us would say we would, including myself), but it's not really practical to do so.

http://forums.coastercrewnetwork.com/showthread.php?tid=2419

⢠John Shanrock, who will be the Kentucky Kingdom general manager and had worked for 30 years with the Cedar Fair organization.

⢠William Hargrave, director of technical services and capital improvements. He has been in management positions with the local Sam Swope automotive organization.

⢠Dave Scharfenberg, manager of technical services, who worked for Hart at the old Kentucky Kingdom and has expertise in ride maintenance.

⢠Lesly Birkner, director of operations, whose background in the amusement industry includes human resources, training, operations analysis and policy development.

Other hires include Marty Cogan as director of community relations, Cathy Sullivan as chief financial officer and Gaylee Gillim, Hartâs spouse, as general counsel and head of the safety committee. In addition, Carol Monheimer will be the parkâs chief of staff, and Victoria Strange will be executive assistant.

Just playing a little bit of the devils advocate. I personally hope the park re-opens and it might. I'd just rather them focus on re-opening the park and then start updating us on what has been going on as the time for opening day draws closer.

Does anyone that lives in the area of KK have any recent pictures of the park or signs of construction?

[stashua123]

Well I know the silence is really killing. Its like KI's silence over whats happening over in Action Zone. Also its like where all speculating but we don't know whats happening. That's all I got to say bout' that.

[sccard01]

Kentucky Kingdom will be open one year from now.

And even if they do, what's to say it would irk Kings Island...one theory I heard about why Six Flags didn't invest too much into SFKK was because Kings Island made the massive Action Zone expansion in 1999/2000 with FACE/OFF, Drop Zone, and Son of Beast and it scared Six Flags to death (hehe, SOB should not have scared them in hindsight ) that whatever they added to SFKK, KI would match and beat...and the fair board would limit their additions, making KI's job easier. So they instead invested heavily in Worlds of Adventure...and went-head-2-head with Cedar Point instead, which had just added Millennium Force and was soon to build Wicked Twister and Top Thrill Dragster. (Makes me think though...could X-Flight, aka now Firehawk, have originally been intended for SFKK instead of Geauga Lake/later Kings Island?) Now, this is just a rumor I heard, but it does make SOME sense...save the "LET'S FIGHT Cedar Point INSTEAD!" part, unless 1990's and early 2000's Six Flags was really THAT dumb...granted it could also have just been Six Flags had too many parks, and could not add to all of them, so they were picking & choosing and KK got jipped.

I heard two coasters that was meant for Kentucky Kingdom where put into World of Adventure. Xflight/Firehawk may have been one of them But I've heard Dominator was custom made to be at the front of the park in the year 2000. It was going to take the place of the vampire and the squid waterslide, but Six Flags went cheap and put in Road Runner in 2000 and Sky Coaster later in 2001.

[The Interpreter]

So what activity within the park can you report on here? Inquiring minds want to know.

[TheBEASTunchained]

Kentucky Kingdom will be open one year from now.

And even if they do, what's to say it would irk Kings Island...one theory I heard about why Six Flags didn't invest too much into SFKK was because Kings Island made the massive Action Zone expansion in 1999/2000 with FACE/OFF, Drop Zone, and Son of Beast and it scared Six Flags to death (hehe, SOB should not have scared them in hindsight ) that whatever they added to SFKK, KI would match and beat...and the fair board would limit their additions, making KI's job easier. So they instead invested heavily in Worlds of Adventure...and went-head-2-head with Cedar Point instead, which had just added Millennium Force and was soon to build Wicked Twister and Top Thrill Dragster. (Makes me think though...could X-Flight, aka now Firehawk, have originally been intended for SFKK instead of Geauga Lake/later Kings Island?) Now, this is just a rumor I heard, but it does make SOME sense...save the "LET'S FIGHT Cedar Point INSTEAD!" part, unless 1990's and early 2000's Six Flags was really THAT dumb...granted it could also have just been Six Flags had too many parks, and could not add to all of them, so they were picking & choosing and KK got jipped.

I heard two coasters that was meant for Kentucky Kingdom where put into World of Adventure. Xflight/Firehawk may have been one of them But I've heard Dominator was custom made to be at the front of the park in the year 2000. It was going to take the place of the vampire and the squid waterslide, but Six Flags went cheap and put in Road Runner in 2000 and Sky Coaster later in 2001.

I guess were lucky that Dominator is over at the Dominion in Doswell right now then aren't we.....

[Shaggy]

Kentucky Kingdom will be open one year from now.

And even if they do, what's to say it would irk Kings Island...one theory I heard about why Six Flags didn't invest too much into SFKK was because Kings Island made the massive Action Zone expansion in 1999/2000 with FACE/OFF, Drop Zone, and Son of Beast and it scared Six Flags to death (hehe, SOB should not have scared them in hindsight ) that whatever they added to SFKK, KI would match and beat...and the fair board would limit their additions, making KI's job easier. So they instead invested heavily in Worlds of Adventure...and went-head-2-head with Cedar Point instead, which had just added Millennium Force and was soon to build Wicked Twister and Top Thrill Dragster. (Makes me think though...could X-Flight, aka now Firehawk, have originally been intended for SFKK instead of Geauga Lake/later Kings Island?) Now, this is just a rumor I heard, but it does make SOME sense...save the "LET'S FIGHT Cedar Point INSTEAD!" part, unless 1990's and early 2000's Six Flags was really THAT dumb...granted it could also have just been Six Flags had too many parks, and could not add to all of them, so they were picking & choosing and KK got jipped.

I heard two coasters that was meant for Kentucky Kingdom where put into World of Adventure. Xflight/Firehawk may have been one of them But I've heard Dominator was custom made to be at the front of the park in the year 2000. It was going to take the place of the vampire and the squid waterslide, but Six Flags went cheap and put in Road Runner in 2000 and Sky Coaster later in 2001.

You heard wrong. XFlight/Firehawk was originally designed for Kings Island (with another slated for install at KD.) Paramount passed on the coasters due to issues with the prototype Stealth in California. The two Flying Dutchmans were then contracted for installation at two competing Six Flags parks - Six Flags Worlds of Adventure and Six Flags America. Neither was ever slated for installation at KK.

Dominator was designed specifically for SFO as part of the park's complete mainstream overhaul. It was not designed for KK, or ever planned for installation there.

The area you mention at KK as being the planned location has an overall height restriction. KK's former tall rides (Chang, the SkyCoaster, the front spike of Greezed Lightning and the former lifts of Vampire) all were placed so they fit in the narrow parcel of land that allowed a 100'+ height variance. Many peope didn't realize it, but the tallest ride points at SFKK were in direct line with each other.

One little known fact is that SF had proposed a Intamin Superman Impulse coaster to be placed in that parcel at the front of KK. However SFKK was underperforming so bad that the company scratched the plans and installed Greezed Lightning instead figuring it to be a cheaper alternative. However the coaster was a maintenance nightmare - mostly due to it's age - and essentially cost more than the Impulse would have. The park held a privately invited PR/Media event to premier the "NEW" coaster. However, the coaster didn't operate and the park supplemented rides on Hellivator (which a few years later generated it's own media event.) Greezed Lightning didn't even make test runs that night and the park sent everyone packing. It was an utter and complete embarassment of an event - typical for SFKK.

On the opposite end of the park, there's a lower height variance - around 85 feet. Twisted Twins/Sisters was designed so they stood 80 feet, giving clearance for raised hands.

[Gordon Bombay]

I don't understand Hart's reasoning. The park has/had sat in a state of decay since Six Flags pulled up stakes. Heck, they even closed part of the park a season or two before they picked up their bat and ball (Chang) and went home. If I was Mr. Hart, which I'm not, I wouldn't have given the park the second thought after the Koch's pulled out and when he was snubbed the first time by the state. He and his team should have looked elsewhere and started their own park on their own land. He's already planning a Large coaster which could have been built anywhere and the money he's using for rehab could have been used for some flats or a water park. Seems kinda crazy to me.

And for what it's worth, I truly deep down think that the Koch's and Bluegrass Boardwalk only got involved as a way to allow the park to deteriorate for another year and to protect their main asset in Santa Claus. Just my opinion.

It speaks volumes that the Koch's were so gung ho on the place until they finally went inside and took a look. They even put out a press release stating that everything there was in bad shape. Yet, Hart, upon his third attempt to reopen the place claims he can fix everything.

As for that large coaster he's "planning," he's not. The man doesn't even know if he has a lease, let alone the money to to invest in this project - he's surely not spending money consulting with manufacturers about rides to build.

I don't think the Koch's got involved to keep anyone away, as there was no one to keep away. Even before they were involved, Ed Hart tried a first time to no success. I think the Koch's really did want to give it a go, but even they admit the park wasn't worth the money to repair it.

Kentucky Kingdom will be open one year from now.

And even if they do, what's to say it would irk Kings Island...one theory I heard about why Six Flags didn't invest too much into SFKK was because Kings Island made the massive Action Zone expansion in 1999/2000 with FACE/OFF, Drop Zone, and Son of Beast and it scared Six Flags to death (hehe, SOB should not have scared them in hindsight ) that whatever they added to SFKK, KI would match and beat...and the fair board would limit their additions, making KI's job easier. So they instead invested heavily in Worlds of Adventure...and went-head-2-head with Cedar Point instead, which had just added Millennium Force and was soon to build Wicked Twister and Top Thrill Dragster. (Makes me think though...could X-Flight, aka now Firehawk, have originally been intended for SFKK instead of Geauga Lake/later Kings Island?) Now, this is just a rumor I heard, but it does make SOME sense...save the "LET'S FIGHT Cedar Point INSTEAD!" part, unless 1990's and early 2000's Six Flags was really THAT dumb...granted it could also have just been Six Flags had too many parks, and could not add to all of them, so they were picking & choosing and KK got jipped.

I heard two coasters that was meant for Kentucky Kingdom where put into World of Adventure. Xflight/Firehawk may have been one of them But I've heard Dominator was custom made to be at the front of the park in the year 2000. It was going to take the place of the vampire and the squid waterslide, but Six Flags went cheap and put in Road Runner in 2000 and Sky Coaster later in 2001.

I don't bet and I don't often visit casinos, but I'd be willing to bet you that Kentucky Kingdom won't be open a year from now. Shaggy beat me to it, but the two coasters you mentioned were NEVER intended for SFKK. There's a reason why SF largely ignored the fledgling KK and focused their efforts North.

[The Interpreter]

Six Flags sent in one of their very best GM's, Melinda Ashcraft. Melinda made an assessment of the situation, figured out what would be necessary to make the park competitive, and submitted her budget request. After receiving her answer from corporate, she transferred elsewhere, ending up as a 45+ year employee of the company. She just retired as GM of Six Flags Over Georgia.

Oh, that budget that corporate wouldn't/didn't approve? It was substantial. Far, far more than Hart & Co. intend to invest in the park.

Melinda's plan would have worked. Ed Hart & Co? His own bank won't lend him the requested amount for the project, and that's with the state's land as collateral.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

And the crickets?

June 27 is coming. At this point, there's not really even a deal yet.

[sccard01]

From what I have seen today as I went through the fairgrounds renovations/construction has just began. We should get a 411 from the media a little bit

[IBEW_Sparky]

We should, but instead..... crick crick crick crick.

[jcgoble3]

The longer we go without official comment from Hart, the less optimistic I am.

Dun DUN dun de-de-Dun DUN Dun-un...

[TheCrypt]

Crick- (noun) a painful stiff feeling in the neck or back.

[sccard01]

Less than a year!!!

[The Interpreter]

...or a month.

We'll see soon.

[IBEW_Sparky]

Crick- (noun) a painful stiff feeling in the neck or back.

You are seriously going to nitpick this? Like you have never seen that word used to describe the sound of a cricket? SMFH.

EDIT:

A counter-thought here.... wouldnt it be a hoot if the "reported Intamin track on I-71 south" was headed to KK? DO I in any way fathom that being the case? Absolutely not, but it would be a jaw-dropper for sure.

[TheCrypt]

Lighten up, Francis.

[Gordon Bombay]

From what I have seen today as I went through the fairgrounds renovations/construction has just began. We should get a 411 from the media a little bit

That's funny because I wonder who's paying for that "renovation/construction?"

Because in the first place you'd have to be permitted to do that on the land with say a lease - which Hart doesn't have set in stone.

Then you'd need money - which Hart doesn't have set in stone.

[Shaggy]

From what I have seen today as I went through the fairgrounds renovations/construction has just began. We should get a 411 from the media a little bit

Interesting...

I was at the Fairgrounds last Saturday (for something completely unrelated to KK) and I took the time to drive all around the perimeter of the park. I didn't see any change - other than some vines/trees cut back at a gated entrance near Thrill Park Theater. Granted I didn't get out of my car and peer through or over a fence (I wasn't invested enough to take the initiative), but it appeared as dead, sad and unkempt as ever. I saw no signs of "construction."

I have to say, when you drive around it, it's shocking to see the dissaray. There are buildings with giant holes in roofs. Tons of rotten wooden siding on games buildings/food stands. Coasters are rusted over. Greezed Lightning is in as poor shape as Thunderbolt Express was at Camden in it's final standing years. The Giant Wheel looks completely rusted out. There's literal trees growing up through the rides. (On a simular note, I read online that the cement in the wave pool has cracked and trees/roots have grown through.) The once Black T2 is a pale grey now. The footings where Chang stood are all still there... it would be a hefty cost just to remove those.

I've been vocal about my non-support for the parks "re-opening." I think it's a complete joke. But IMO, there's no way the park can be reapaired to a viable complete state of operations in time for 2014. It's become more and more obvious to me that SF walked away not only because of bad land/parking/rent deals with Workman's Fairground... but it also knew the investment the park would require in the near future. The costs outweighed the gains - thus they packed their bags and hightailed it out of dodge.

Shaggy

[The Interpreter]

...as did the Kochs.

And Hart's own bank is unwilling to lend the requested amount.

Hart HIMSELF would NOT commit to a lease by April 27. HE asked for 60 more days to back out should he so choose. If he had wanted to commit to this project in April, he could have done so. He did not.

[TheBEASTunchained]

From what I have seen today as I went through the fairgrounds renovations/construction has just began. We should get a 411 from the media a little bit

Interesting...

I was at the Fairgrounds last Saturday (for something completely unrelated to KK) and I took the time to drive all around the perimeter of the park. I didn't see any change - other than some vines/trees cut back at a gated entrance near Thrill Park Theater. Granted I didn't get out of my car and peer through or over a fence (I wasn't invested enough to take the initiative), but it appeared as dead, sad and unkempt as ever. I saw no signs of "construction."

I have to say, when you drive around it, it's shocking to see the dissaray. There are buildings with giant holes in roofs. Tons of rotten wooden siding on games buildings/food stands. Coasters are rusted over. Greezed Lightning is in as poor shape as Thunderbolt Express was at Camden in it's final standing years. The Giant Wheel looks completely rusted out. There's literal trees growing up through the rides. (On a simular note, I read online that the cement in the wave pool has cracked and trees/roots have grown through.) The once Black T2 is a pale grey now. The footings where Chang stood are all still there... it would be a hefty cost just to remove those.

I've been vocal about my non-support for the parks "re-opening." I think it's a complete joke. But IMO, there's no way the park can be reapaired to a viable complete state of operations in time for 2014. It's become more and more obvious to me that SF walked away not only because of bad land/parking/rent deals with Workman's Fairground... but it also knew the investment the park would require in the near future. The costs outweighed the gains - thus they packed their bags and hightailed it out of dodge.

Shaggy

You make a very good, and valid point, which also brings up my other question to sccard01......

If theres so much "construction" going on lately, then where are the pictures? You'd think if there was very much, to any activity that maybe one or two news channels would try to pick up on it or something.

[TheCrypt]

Just like how so many news stations are covering Kings Island's mystery construction?

[sccard01]

Posting photos on this site is difficult. If you don't believe me fine. Go through the fairgroudns yourself.

A photo update has been posted on themeparkreview. It isn't showing anything I've noticed this week construction wise.

http://www.themeparkreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51557&p=1316914&hilit=kentucky#p1316914

[shark6495]

Just like how so many news stations are covering Kings Island's mystery construction?

Slight difference between a new mystery project that will be revealed at a later date in the summer with official press kits, etc versus a defunct park making a revival. Local media here in Cincinnati would be covering Americana's revival if it happened more than a viable company expanding its profile with a new ride/area/etc.

Posting photos on this site is difficult. If you don't believe me fine. Go through the fairgroudns yourself.

A photo update has been posted on themeparkreview. It isn't showing anything I've noticed this week construction wise.

http://www.themeparkreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51557&p=1316914&hilit=kentucky#p1316914

Well you can always sign up for flickr. Then link to it. Thats very easy. I have done it when I did a drive by on Geuaga Lake. Now the pictures in the themeparkreview are a bit too tight to show much. I would like a wider shot to get the idea of the park looks like. Some over grown weeds in areas and rust does not show much in either way...

[The Interpreter]

I find the posts there far more interesting. Sound a lot like what nearly everyone here is saying, except one poster at each site who keeps casting every glimmer of hope as a bright and shining can't miss beacon of certainty of the park's re-opening. Could it be one and the same poster?

June 27, 2013.