Death at Six Flags over Texas

[homestar92]

Additionally, when my best friend passed, I placed a Crunchwrap Supreme at his grave. He loved Taco Bell. I know many living people would love that Crunchwrap. But it made his mother smile, which hadn't happened for a long time. So I see what you're saying, but I think placing things like that at a memorial can have its benefits.

[Browntggrr]

When guests complain about the seatbelts on MF or TTD, they should be referred to this thread.

Decisions are not made to **** people off, they are made with your best interests in mind.

Additionally, when my best friend passed, I placed a Crunchwrap Supreme at his grave. He loved Taco Bell. I know many living people would love that Crunchwrap. But it made his mother smile, which hadn't happened for a long time. So I see what you're saying, but I think placing things like that at a memorial can have its benefits.

Nice job homestar!

I did a similar remembrance for a friend that was a Steelers fan. I wore a hat to his service, and put it in his casket.

[medford]

Do ride stations typically have video monitoring? Something like that could offer a clue or two. Obviously, audio would be hard, if not impossible to capture in a station, but visual evidence could be used to see if the women or ride operator was doing something the helped lead to this death.

I was watching the POV this weekend of this ride (post retracking), it appeared that the is a decent "side" to the car, as well as some sort of plexiglass barrier on the side. Made me wonder how anyone could just fall out to the side, assuming the restraints were working as intended.

I'll second (or third, fourth, etc...) others on the seat belt redundancy. Even if some sort of seat belt was completely and totally useless on a ride like Diamondback, it would ease my mind a bit. I'd love to see a test video of a ride w/ no lap restraint. I trust terpy on that statement, or at least the manufacturer's statement, but I'd still find it interesting to watch.

[Shaggy]

I told you an outside factor related to the guest - such as obsesity - would be one of the lead contributing factors.

I'm going to ruffle some feathers here, but I'll come right out with it.

Parks should, under the law, have the right to refuse anyone of exceptional size and/or physical handicap to ride. ADA regulations have reached a ridiculous fever pitch, and those that are obsese are developing a mentality that "what everyone else can do, I should be allowed to do." Sorry, but that's crap. They should NOT be allowed to do something that could compromise their safety. A park should be protected, just as any citizen is, should they refuse a person. If I have a backyard pool with a slide, I can - by law - refuse someone access to it for fear their physical limitation would endanger them should they go on the slide. However if a park does such, it's considered discrimination, and the ADA gives the guest the right to sue.

It's a fact of life that those of larger proportions simply cannot do, or should not do, things that would be impeded by size. By living in a "PC" society, we are perpetuating myths. By "pretending" that a person of extreme size or limitation is completely able-bodied endangers them. It generates a mentality, in cases such as coaster riding, that they are superior to a mechanical device.

It's lose-lose for the parks. If they refuse the rider - they get sued. If they allow the rider - they run the risk of getting sued should any accident (no matter how small) occurr.

When I worked on Beast crew, there was a fellow who came with his Dad to KI every weekend and rode The Beast. He was middle-aged, wheelchair bound and LOVED KI. I really appreciated his love of the park. However, he was handicapped to the point that he could not lift or manuever himself out of his chair or into the train whatsoever. As a matter of fact, (as I recall) his arms had very limited mobility and he was not able to hold the lap bar properly. (I believe, he had Cerebral Palsy to the point that he was constricted to the chair) We'd have to hold the trains while three of us lifted him from his chair onto the ride. We then had to adhere him to the seat with a special torso strap and click his lapbar down on him. This was AFTER we had notified those that had waited in line (he didn't have to - came up the exit) that he would be riding in front of them for the next two circuits (he was permitted two consecutive rides.) We'd send him on his way, and every single time I'd pray to God that he came back in one piece. I stayed scared to death something would happen and I'd be responsible. However, by law, I was not allowed to refuse this. But also, had something happened, my neck was on the chopping block for blame. Now I was in my late 20's - and working at KI for kicks. Most employees at KI are teens - or young 20s. That's an immense responsibility to place on "a kid." Yet, had I refused to allow him - or even refused to assist him - I would have been fired and the park sued.

Now I ask... is that fair to anyone? Him? Me? The park?

[Voicetek]

^ Well that pretty much sums it up. I totally agree with everything in this post. Safety should always come first, even before the rights of park guests. If it looks like it could be dangerous for them to ride, then they should be turned away. It's not worth risking someone's life over a few minutes of fun and a cheap thrill.

[gad198]

I'll second (or third, fourth, etc...) others on the seat belt redundancy. Even if some sort of seat belt was completely and totally useless on a ride like Diamondback, it would ease my mind a bit. I'd love to see a test video of a ride w/ no lap restraint. I trust terpy on that statement, or at least the manufacturer's statement, but I'd still find it interesting to watch.

One of the most interesting things I've done at a park was to take the Montu insider tour at Busch Gardens Tampa. We went inside the maintenance area and had a chance to see how B&M restraints worked out in full view. I'll spare the technical details, but suffice it to say that the odds of a B&M restraint failing, including the clamshell restraints, are extremely close to zero. They're close enough to zero that I truly believe you'd win the lottery multiple times before a B&M restraint fails. Add in the reclined seats as the Interpreter mentioned and the odds of an incident go further still. B&M really thinks about a lot of the little stuff. Their perfect safety record speaks for itself.

[thedevariouseffect]

As for video monitoring, it's a so-so. On some rides they have it watching the station/unload (see Top Thrill Dragster). However some rides have no cameras anywhere on the ride unfortunately (see Corkscrew). I've complained till I was blue in the face, but it all comes down to money honestly and that's the sad reality

[Bennett]

Amen, Shaggy. Very well said, in a way that I could not do it without offending someone. I had no doubt when I first saw the story that she'd wind up being morbidly obese.

The "walk of shame" is far better than what happened here.

[flightoffear1996]

Why not put the test seats outside the park? This way the larger guest could sit in the restraints and if they didn't fit they could choose to enter or not to enter the park from thier. This way a guest couldn't say well I paid full admission to get in and now your telling me I can't ride anything.

[Shaggy]

Why not put the test seats outside the park? This way the larger guest could sit in the restraints and if they didn't fit they could choose to enter or not to enter the park from thier. This way a guest couldn't say well I paid full admission to get in and now your telling me I can't ride anything.

A test seat doesn't enforce the rule. Many would ignore the test seat and venture in anyways. Some may try the test seat, and even if they didn't fit, still attempt. The employees at an entrance (park or ride) can't profile (tell larger folks to try the test seat) otherwise it's mis-construed as discrimination. While test seats do work for those that actually take their limitations into consideration, they do not work for those that are either mentally oblivious or mentally ignorant of the restrictions.

[AZ Kinda Guy]

According to the discussion on TPR, there was no click system on Texas Giant. I made a post of how the employee was at fault. Robb replied saying they had already discussed it and none of them can remember hearing clicks on Texas Giant.

Some coaster's lap restraints rely on, what I believe to be, air compression. I believe Intamin rides like Superman coasters, MForce, Drop Tower etc are like this - they don't click they compress down....

Hydraulics

[Browntggrr]

Article with picture of the victim:

http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rbml?&pageType=national&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbsnews.com%2F8301-201_162-57594776%2Fgerman-roller-coaster-maker-inspecting-six-flags-ride-where-woman-died%2F&feed_id=1&videoid=37&catid=57594776&nb_splitPage=0

[WWC2003Amy]

I would not be surprised if Restraint systems in all parks get looked at, I know one ride I will not ride is Firehalk because the restraint system. Restraint isnt riggid enough for my tastes. My thoughts go out to the family.

[beastrider97]

From reading various sites, I've read (and this is purely from the internet and second hand) that some cops from the area that did not investigate heard that the restraint did not fail. IF this is true, one would wonder how she could come out. Allegedly, the woman came out during the double down. Is it possible that the woman's stomach could come out from under the bar during the first "down" and then the rest of her body to come out at the second "down"? It seems very hard to imagine it happening. Like a few, I find the eyewitness is not 100% reliable, has anyone else heard about if the restraint did in fact release?

[disco2000]

Shaggy - I commend you for your actions as the ACE rep after what you witnessed at HW, as well as you coming to this forum to share your insight and thoughts.

Regarding your above post, you absolutely nailed it, and unfortunately some will be offended, but we as a society have gone/heading towards such extreme inclusions that at the current pace, the day will come when a roller coaster will need to allow the actual wheel chair on the ride, provisions for oxygen tanks, fluid bags, a psychologist to calm those with anxiety attacks experienced while on the ride, etc., along with having a walking path along every foot of track because one never knows when a train may lose a wheel and stop where the ride wasn't intended to stop. Oh yea, and because of this walking path required, there will be no more loops or anything where someone could not be evacuated from the ride if it stopped at that location. This may seem like an extreme example and let's hope it is, but in our current environment (ADA, lawsuits, etc.) it could happen. Either that or no more roller coasters.

I am not against ADA by any means, but some common sense needs to prevail. An amusement park provides a lot that folks with restrictions can partake in. Taking a phrase from Shaggy, the "mentally oblivious or mentally ignorant" folks help drive up costs of amusement parks, either with frivolous lawsuits that they were denied access to a ride, or worse the family of a loved one killed on the ride. Many of the same folks with total disregard to their safety are probably also the first to file a suit if they are denied access. Look at KI's own Woodstock Express and how many parents try to sneak their too short child on the ride and then blow a gasket when they are denied riding. I witnessed a ticked off dad nearly break off the exit gate in disgust. I bet guest relations probably gets many complaints a year over this.

A case of common sense not prevailing - look at Dollywood. Dollywood used to provide free admission to those in wheelchairs or blind/deaf, not because Dollywood couldn't accommodate them any different than other parks could, but was southern hospitality both by the park and in some instances the visitor themselves may choose not to burden others while they accommodated them getting on a ride. Dollywood claims were over 40,000 admissions/year were granted under this policy. Guess what, an ADA action group claimed that this policy was a violation of ADA because it made the disabled feel different and not equal and filed suit, so Dollywood dropped the policy and now charges everyone that enters. Common sense did not prevail in that situation. So instead of getting in free and still being different and not equal by having to go up the exit to get on the ride, they now get to pay for that convenience.

Regarding this witness in the reports, as Terp and many others who have seen/rode the ride, I am also not believing her claims and I am sure the park's attorney's will be able to get her dismissed or not taken seriously in any litigation. I just don't think from her vantage point she could have heard/seen all that she claims she did. Next time you are in line for a ride and will be next one on, see/listen if you can view/hear anything happening on the ride after the train has left the station. She was either looking for her 15 minutes of fame, looking to make money off it in a trial, or worse, which I will keep to myself and hope it isn't true.

[Tanna]

Gad198,

Your facts of the restraint system sound very much like the man who told me of the system used on DB, he said it was designed to look frail, but in fact was a Titan of restraining systems.

Shaggy, I would Love! To work at KI again for kicks. I wish I lived closer.

As to having test seats outside the park, many people would eschew them. The inner view and outer view of a person sometimes are of a glaring difference, and people would say to themselves, "I'm not that big, I don't need that." Many people inwardly envision themselves as they were at a younger age, and probably thinner.

The DB test chair looks huge, compared to other rides in the park, it looks like an easy chair. People mentally size up the test chair and shrug off testing it.

In every on ride photo I see of myself, I'm always shocked about how small I am. I have a mental image that is drastically different than my true proportions. I see The Beast chairs as being so small, but the photos don't lie, I can pack a cooler lunch next to me and still have plenty of room.

Personel can't coral people towards the chairs outside the park, in a mini-walk of shame.

I'd read somewhere that one can usually have a good vantage point of the lift hill, or some frightening element of the ride from where one stands in the queue, to heighten anticipation, but I looked at the layout of the ride, and can't fathom how a person in line can deduce one person screaming, or see the element of the ride where the accident happened.

[jcgoble3]

A few others have waxed eloquent above about obesity and the ADA. What follows is my response.

I am offended that we as a society have allowed our system to reach the point where fat (no, I will not use politically correct terms, for that too offends me) is considered a disability. The fat people who are claiming as such need a cold, hard dose of reality. In a perfect world, this accident would be it, but sadly that will not be the case. Instead of seeking special treatment, get up off your lazy @$$ and lose some weight so you don't "need" special treatment (and I put "need" in quotation marks because it's really "want"). I don't care how you lose weight, just do it.

Fat is NOT a disability. Get over it.

(Note that this rant applies only to those fat people who try to abuse their physical condition for special treatment. I have no issue with those that recognize and accept their limitations, and furthermore accept that there are some things that they just can't do, like most [i would hope all] of the larger folks on here.)

[Tanna]

A few others have waxed eloquent above about obesity and the ADA. What follows is my response.

I am offended that we as a society have allowed our system to reach the point where fat (no, I will not use politically correct terms, for that too offends me) is considered a disability. The fat people who are claiming as such need a cold, hard dose of reality. In a perfect world, this accident would be it, but sadly that will not be the case. Instead of seeking special treatment, get up off your lazy @$$ and lose some weight so you don't "need" special treatment (and I put "need" in quotation marks because it's really "want"). I don't care how you lose weight, just do it.

Fat is NOT a disability. Get over it.

(Note that this rant applies only to those fat people who try to abuse their physical condition for special treatment. I have no issue with those that recognize and accept their limitations, and furthermore accept that there are some things that they just can't do, like most [i would hope all] of the larger folks on here.)

I understand your point of view, but I still don't want them treated like smokers.

There might be a genuine reason for a weight problem.

I smoked since I was very young due to asthma, (folk medicine during the Carter Administration- don't ask for logic)- some people with a weight problem might have it due to a medical condition, steroids for example.

I understand your dislike of special treatment, I would never charge onto the base camp of Everest and demand the climb, I know I couldn't do it without killing myself and ten others, but people get used to how they are treated, whether they are aware of this or not. Many of the families of people of greater proportion allow 'special' favors, i.e. "Don't get up, mom, just tell me where it is, and I'll get it for you."

I find myself doing that all the time, to be honest, sometimes the hassle of getting my mom out of her chair isn't worth whatever it is she's getting out of the chair for.

[upstop]

Hey, I'm one of those big guys and not the least bit offended. I do have questions about why I am able to fit easily in the red train of the Red Racer, but was only able to get one click on the Blue Racer. Anyway, I avoid the attractions where a.) I'm too big or b.) the ride is uncomfortable.....the rider needs to think logically and determine if the ride is right for them and avoid those rides that could be an issue. I'm not sure of the controls on Texas Giant, but because it appears to be an aggressive ride, do they check in the booth to see if the ride is locked before dispatching? Can this be verified by a computer readout later to determine if all seats were locked before dispatch?

[medford]

Seems like there are an awful lot of people ready to cast aspiration at the women who passed away, are ready to blame her weight on the problem.

Was she at fault? Possibly.

Was it the ride op? Possibly.

Was it the locking mechanism on the ride? Possibly.

Was it a design flaw? Possibly.

I'm sure I've missed a warning somewhere, but don't recall ever seeing the warning sign for a rollercoaster list direct weight as a ride limitation. They mostly (if not all) indicate that rides of unusual or larger porportions may not fit in the ride, but I don't recall seeing a specific weight. The women who tragically fell to her death certainly appears overweight, but that does not mean she was at fault. Did the ride op check her in properrly? Was he/she sure that the lap bar was in correct position? Did the car manufacturer overlook a potential design flaw? Was it a combination of all 3, and possibly something else, in essence the perfect storm?

I've seen more than 1 person do the walk of shame. I've never seen anyone protest, though I'm sure the current or former ride ops have on many occasions. I'm guessing most, when they realize they don't fit suffer an immediate dose of shame and are looking to scoot away as quickly as possible.

I couldn't imagine being the ride op on that train. How many questions have to be going thru his/her brain at the moment? How much shock do they feel. Its a terrible tragedy, no doubt about that, but lets let the investigation take its coarse before we place all the blame on this lady's weight.

[YoungStud]

I have seen people complain when they have been deemed to large to ride safely. Just like parents getting mad at the employees that measure children and gives them height specific wristbands. I saw a father cuss out a employee in Planet Snoopy cause the child did not even come close to the 36" mark. Youngstud stepped in and told him he would have bigger problems unless he apologized...

[thedevariouseffect]

Rider size and weight is adressed in the rider safety guide as quoted here. Larger guests have been established in the general ride policy/procedures and also more detailed variants per ride.

All passenger restraint systems, including lap bars, shoulder harnesses and seatbelts, must be positioned and fastened properly to allow guests to ride.

Due to rider restraint system requirements, guests larger size may not be accommodated on some of rides. This may apply, but not be limited to, guests who exceed 6'2" or those who exceed 225 pounds, have 40" waistline or 52" chest or females who exceed 200 pounds or wear a size 18 or larger.

Our larger guests may experience diffculty on Blue Streak, Corkscrew, Disaster Transport, Mantis, Maverick, maXair, Mean Streak, Millennium Force, Mine Ride, Power Tower, Raptor, Skyhawk, Top Thrill Dragster, Wave Swinger, Shoot the Rapids and Wicked Twister.

Maximum recommended weight limits are posted at Camp Snoopy rides, Monster, Scrambler, Super Himalaya, Troika, Wave Swinger, WindSeeker, Planet Snoopy rides, RipCord and most Soak City attractions.

As stated, all restraints must be fastened, and if you fit this criteria you may not fit or struggle to fit.

[DontWantToWait42mar0]

People who are worried about the restraints coming undone on Diamondback know this:

If you sit in the even numbered rows, the ones where the seats are further apart, you can grab onto the bottom of your seat securely.

[AintNutinElse2Do]

If this incident and previous ones do in fact bring about more seatbelts, I just hope it'll be the ones that fasten to the restraint itself rather than across the lap. I find them to be much quicker to find and buckle than the others. That said those thinking that seat belts are fail safe I would like you to know that just a few months ago I spent a lot of time in salvage yards to find the correct seat belt mechanism for my car as mine had failed. I'll also note that my car was built by a company that was regarded as one of the safest manufacturers. Fast forward and now I am having issues with the seatbelt again only this time rather than a non retracting issue I now sometimes have an issue where it won't unlatch. So for me I trust those hidden safe guards more than the ones I've seen fail for myself.

[Voicetek]

If this incident and previous ones do in fact bring about more seatbelts, I just hope it'll be the ones that fasten to the restraint itself rather than across the lap. I find them to be much quicker to find and buckle than the others. That said those thinking that seat belts are fail safe I would like you to know that just a few months ago I spent a lot of time in salvage yards to find the correct seat belt mechanism for my car as mine had failed. I'll also note that my car was built by a company that was regarded as one of the safest manufacturers. Fast forward and now I am having issues with the seatbelt again only this time rather than a non retracting issue I now sometimes have an issue where it won't unlatch. So for me I trust those hidden safe guards more than the ones I've seen fail for myself.

This is probably true, but the odds of the lap bar failing and the seat belt failing at the same time are pretty high. Either one will fail or the other, but more than likely not at the same time. So I'll take my chances with a seat belt as a back up restraint.

[Tanna]

People who are worried about the restraints coming undone on Diamondback know this:

If you sit in the even numbered rows, the ones where the seats are further apart, you can grab onto the bottom of your seat securely.

And how! There's a little crook molded into the plastic at the seat part you can reach if you feel totally buttless.

[TombRaiderFTW]

I've been sitting back on this conversation, as I really don't know how much else there is to add (save for sympathies for the victim's family, which I do have.) It's very interesting hearing everyone's thoughts on the matter. Hearing discussion about this on multiple sites has actually been a huge learning experience for me.

I do have to lean more in the direction of Shaggy's opinion. If a park can't guarantee a rider's safety, then it should have the right to deny them a ride. Making them liable no matter what they do is like making Honda responsible for every accident any Civic has.

Personally, I think I'd expect Millennium Force-esque seatbelts to be added to Texas Giant (if not Iron Rattler and any other rides Six Flags and other chains feel are affected by this incident.) Seatbelts, if nothing else, would be a very clear line between "yes, you can ride" and "no, you can't" that both operators and guests can see and understand. Unfortunately, they wouldn't do much to help people that feel victimized by being told they can't do something when they want to, but that, as irritating as it is to say, is people. In previous jobs, I've had people quite literally throw tantrums and yell at me because they weren't able to use a dollar-off coupon on their $5 sandwiches. (Somehow, I don't miss those days... These days, SolidWorks is a much nicer coworker, although it throws its own tantrums now and again.)

[upstop]

Additionally, when my best friend passed, I placed a Crunchwrap Supreme at his grave. He loved Taco Bell. I know many living people would love that Crunchwrap. But it made his mother smile, which hadn't happened for a long time. So I see what you're saying, but I think placing things like that at a memorial can have its benefits.

If you do believe in an afterlife, and it appears that you do, I'm certain your best friend is looking down on you and smiling....and he walks with you everyday. You'd be surprised of the little reminders of his presence that will appear to you. One day you will be reminded of a situation, or a joke, or smell and he'll be right there with you....always and forever!

[HHauntFanatic]

I told you an outside factor related to the guest - such as obsesity - would be one of the lead contributing factors.

I'm going to ruffle some feathers here, but I'll come right out with it.

Parks should, under the law, have the right to refuse anyone of exceptional size and/or physical handicap to ride. ADA regulations have reached a ridiculous fever pitch, and those that are obsese are developing a mentality that "what everyone else can do, I should be allowed to do." Sorry, but that's crap. They should NOT be allowed to do something that could compromise their safety. A park should be protected, just as any citizen is, should they refuse a person. If I have a backyard pool with a slide, I can - by law - refuse someone access to it for fear their physical limitation would endanger them should they go on the slide. However if a park does such, it's considered discrimination, and the ADA gives the guest the right to sue.

It's a fact of life that those of larger proportions simply cannot do, or should not do, things that would be impeded by size. By living in a "PC" society, we are perpetuating myths. By "pretending" that a person of extreme size or limitation is completely able-bodied endangers them. It generates a mentality, in cases such as coaster riding, that they are superior to a mechanical device.

It's lose-lose for the parks. If they refuse the rider - they get sued. If they allow the rider - they run the risk of getting sued should any accident (no matter how small) occurr.

When I worked on Beast crew, there was a fellow who came with his Dad to KI every weekend and rode The Beast. He was middle-aged, wheelchair bound and LOVED KI. I really appreciated his love of the park. However, he was handicapped to the point that he could not lift or manuever himself out of his chair or into the train whatsoever. As a matter of fact, (as I recall) his arms had very limited mobility and he was not able to hold the lap bar properly. (I believe, he had Cerebral Palsy to the point that he was constricted to the chair) We'd have to hold the trains while three of us lifted him from his chair onto the ride. We then had to adhere him to the seat with a special torso strap and click his lapbar down on him. This was AFTER we had notified those that had waited in line (he didn't have to - came up the exit) that he would be riding in front of them for the next two circuits (he was permitted two consecutive rides.) We'd send him on his way, and every single time I'd pray to God that he came back in one piece. I stayed scared to death something would happen and I'd be responsible. However, by law, I was not allowed to refuse this. But also, had something happened, my neck was on the chopping block for blame. Now I was in my late 20's - and working at KI for kicks. Most employees at KI are teens - or young 20s. That's an immense responsibility to place on "a kid." Yet, had I refused to allow him - or even refused to assist him - I would have been fired and the park sued.

Now I ask... is that fair to anyone? Him? Me? The park?

I agree completely and this is coming from somebody who works in Special Education, to which you don't even want to get me started on that whole other can of worms.

[homestar92]

Additionally, when my best friend passed, I placed a Crunchwrap Supreme at his grave. He loved Taco Bell. I know many living people would love that Crunchwrap. But it made his mother smile, which hadn't happened for a long time. So I see what you're saying, but I think placing things like that at a memorial can have its benefits.

If you do believe in an afterlife, and it appears that you do, I'm certain your best friend is looking down on you and smiling....and he walks with you everyday. You'd be surprised of the little reminders of his presence that will appear to you. One day you will be reminded of a situation, or a joke, or smell and he'll be right there with you....always and forever!

Don't worry, every time I take a ride on Vortex, he's always there enjoying it with me.

Now, to refrain from taking us too far off topic, have any other Six Flags rides been temporarily shut down? I would think they MAY close the Iron Rattler, but I haven't found anything to indicate as such.