Kings Island losing B&M?

[BoddaH1994]

On 6/24/2019 at 11:27 AM, Gordon Bombay said:

Not a criticism, but just curious how you might be defining "service life." SFGAM and SFGADV removed their mega loopers, but the SFMM one still remains (Viper) as do Arrow coasters older than our 1987 Bat-replacement. I never particularly cared for Vortex as a ride (the headbanging ruins what would otherwise be a really cool experience), but in my experience the reliability and capacity benefits kept it going. When you say "service life" do you think it's a matter physical age or more of a matter of space/benefit ala: it's outlived its usefulness and the site could be utilized for something better?

For me, that seems to be the biggest benefit of removing Vortex: a large plot of land is free'd up. The Dive Coaster thing seems to fit in line with how other parks have been developed within the chain (it also adds yet another high capacity, reliable ride with an enjoyable and unique guest experience). I'm curiously watching the Mack case at Carowinds and how that ride holds up in terms of reliability, etc. 

Anyways, just curious if you have any insight as to how "service life" may be defined. Universal stated that their dueling B&M inverts had outlived their "service life," but there are B&M inverts even older that are still running just fine. Firehawk was also said to be "at the end of its service life," but that ride was always an unreliable piece of junk. 

On a personal note: if Vortex is staying, I think it'd be nice to see it get refreshed. Throw on some fresh paint (maybe a new color scheme), add in those comfortable Vekoma trains, clean up the station, tie it in with the whole nostalgia thing. 

I'm thinking of "service life" in like the same definition that the industry does: simply that the upkeep, repairs, and utilization of labor and land does not have the ROI that they desire.  Much of the industry have a formula that's referred to as "cost per rider."  You know how Don has talked about guests voting with their feet?  That's what he's referring to.  As the decades go by and rides get better and better, ridership inherently drops (taking into account the inflation of the number in relation to attendance growth).  Just like with a car, more and more stuff needs to be fixed over time. That, coupled with little novelty or marketability for a 30 year old Arrow Looper, makes me think that the powers that be will eventually start thinking of better ways to get an ROI out of that plot of land.  I'm not saying it's today, but some day. 

[HandsUp]

On 6/22/2019 at 1:29 PM, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I think it'll be a while before we see another coaster at Kings Island after this. I'm saying like 4-6 years. I doubt they'll do another log flume. It seems like log flumes are dying out. I think we are more likely to see new water rides in Soak City than the park itself. 

My 5 year plan following 2020 (probably will change)

2021 - Planet Snoopy expansion

2022 - Soak City Expansion, 50th anniversary celebration   Record-breaking ground up RMC through the woods in Beast-like fashion

2023 - flat ride package, Invertigo/Congo Falls leave at the end of season

2024 - new restaurant and/or family ride/prep for 2025

2025 - Mack double launch

 

fixed that for you ;-)

[BoddaH1994]

Just now, HandsUp said:

fixed that for you ;-)

Thank you.  I can't believe he spelled RMC wrong. 

[Maverick44]

Yeah that was way off from correct spelling lol.

He also miss spelled Intimin hahaha. Idk how you mistake that as mAck.

[Gordon Bombay]

1 hour ago, BoddaH1994 said:

I'm thinking of "service life" in like the same definition that the industry does: simply that the upkeep, repairs, and utilization of labor and land does not have the ROI that they desire.  Much of the industry have a formula that's referred to as "cost per rider."  You know how Don has talked about guests voting with their feet?  That's what he's referring to.  As the decades go by and rides get better and better, ridership inherently drops (taking into account the inflation of the number in relation to attendance growth).  Just like with a car, more and more stuff needs to be fixed over time. That, coupled with little novelty or marketability for a 30 year old Arrow Looper, makes me think that the powers that be will eventually start thinking of better ways to get an ROI out of that plot of land.  I'm not saying it's today, but some day. 

Wonderful. Thank you for the insight!

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

I doubt we'll be seeing a coaster for the 50th anniversary. A giga is already a huge investment so I doubt they'll do another large investment just two years later. 

[lifetimecoaster]

1 hour ago, BoddaH1994 said:

I'm thinking of "service life" in like the same definition that the industry does: simply that the upkeep, repairs, and utilization of labor and land does not have the ROI that they desire.  Much of the industry have a formula that's referred to as "cost per rider."  You know how Don has talked about guests voting with their feet?  That's what he's referring to.  As the decades go by and rides get better and better, ridership inherently drops (taking into account the inflation of the number in relation to attendance growth).  Just like with a car, more and more stuff needs to be fixed over time. That, coupled with little novelty or marketability for a 30 year old Arrow Looper, makes me think that the powers that be will eventually start thinking of better ways to get an ROI out of that plot of land.  I'm not saying it's today, but some day. 

 Vortex is an absolute classic for me... based mainly upon the nostalgia of being young and having that be my first looper I've ever ridden. I throw 2 to 3 laps in on it every time I'm at the park for the sake of I love to ride it, and I want them to see traffic on the ride. That being said, it's brutal. I'm older now, and the whipping about that it does hurts. When you compare it to the newer coasters that are taller, and significantly faster, and are smooth as glass, it's a lot to ride. It's still a beautiful coaster to look at too. It's just so amazing to stand there by the bathrooms and look out towards it, or better yet, from the basketball game right next to the double loop. Sadly though, I know it's lifespan is growing shorter. Besides which.... it's sinking, so it's not as tall or fast as when it was new. 

[Maverick44]

36 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I doubt we'll be seeing a coaster for the 50th anniversary. A giga is already a huge investment so I doubt they'll do another large investment just two years later. 

What about Cedar Point...….They Put in Millennium Force in 2000 and then Wicked Twister in 2002??? 

Then they added TTD just a year after WT. I do not think they care about that.

[Kenban]

Anniversary coasters make no sense from a business perspective.  2022 is going to be about the 50th anniversary, same as 2020 at Cedar Point is about the 150th.  The anniversary and celebrations surrounding it will draw in large crowds and is likely to break attendance records on its own.  I would also not be surprised to see construction next year at CP for a 2021 coaster.  People will come for the 150th, then when they see the construction they will return for the new attraction the following year.

The same is likely to occur at Kings Island, we will have the 50th in 2022, with construction on an attraction opening in 2023.

This is pretty standard around the theme park industry, the one that comes to mind is Dollywood with the 30th in 2015, and Lightning Rod in 2016.  I cannot think of a single park which installed a major attraction in a major anniversary year.

 

B&M has plenty of models we do not have but I doubt most of them are very likely.  I suspect a dive coaster is in our future, maybe not 2023, but I expect to see one at some point.  Although I would not be surprised to see a Gerstlauer infinity coaster instead of a B&M.

[Maverick44]

I don't think they will either. I was proving a point that 2 seasons apart means nothing  to CF and adding to a park.

[McSalsa]

12 minutes ago, Kenban said:

I cannot think of a single park which installed a major attraction in a major anniversary year.

I can think of ONE: Holiday World, for their 60th anniversary in 2006, added The Voyage along with the entire Thanksgiving Section of the park. That's it though, I don't know any others.

[Joshua]

If anything, I'd like to see the park go all out in celebrating their 50th. Maybe do something small like a museum or some sort of show that honors the park's history. If any ride at all is installed that year, I'd much rather see another defunct ride return, like the keelboats, some sort of flat, or the return of the Enchanted Theater (albeit Peanut-ized). 

[Maverick44]

^^ Bring back the Phantom & Keelboat!

[SonofBaconator]

I think we'll be seeing work from companies like RMC, gerstlauer, and possibly Mack in our future. Mack coasters are extremely expensive since they're manufactured overseas so that might be a deciding factor for the park. I like Gerstlauer but it seems like a company that's better fit for smaller tier parks like Worlds of Fun, Knott's, Valley Fair, etc. 

For our next *big* coaster I suspect either RMC or B&M. When was the last time Cedar Fair got a coaster from S&S?

[Kenban]

9 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

When was the last time Cedar Fair got a coaster from S&S?

When they purchased the Paramount Parks, then it was removed the following year.

[MDMC01]

If I got to pick our next coaster after the Giga, I’d want a floorless. The two I’ve been on were really cool- I’m really looking forward to getting some laps on Rougarou next month! Also, if the sky were truly the limit, I’d say get an Intamin Impulse coaster, but they’re not making many of those anymore (also, Wicked Twister). I’d also like to see a unique ground-up RMC someday.

[fryoj]

On 6/24/2019 at 11:27 AM, Gordon Bombay said:

Not a criticism, but just curious how you might be defining "service life." SFGAM and SFGADV removed their mega loopers, but the SFMM one still remains (Viper) as do Arrow coasters older than our 1987 Bat-replacement. I never particularly cared for Vortex as a ride (the headbanging ruins what would otherwise be a really cool experience), but in my experience the reliability and capacity benefits kept it going. When you say "service life" do you think it's a matter physical age or more of a matter of space/benefit ala: it's outlived its usefulness and the site could be utilized for something better?

For me, that seems to be the biggest benefit of removing Vortex: a large plot of land is free'd up. The Dive Coaster thing seems to fit in line with how other parks have been developed within the chain (it also adds yet another high capacity, reliable ride with an enjoyable and unique guest experience). I'm curiously watching the Mack case at Carowinds and how that ride holds up in terms of reliability, etc. 

Anyways, just curious if you have any insight as to how "service life" may be defined. Universal stated that their dueling B&M inverts had outlived their "service life," but there are B&M inverts even older that are still running just fine. Firehawk was also said to be "at the end of its service life," but that ride was always an unreliable piece of junk. 

On a personal note: if Vortex is staying, I think it'd be nice to see it get refreshed. Throw on some fresh paint (maybe a new color scheme), add in those comfortable Vekoma trains, clean up the station, tie it in with the whole nostalgia thing. 

Service life ends up being thrown out as a conveniently vague reason to remove an older ride. Sometimes it's they want to use the land, sometimes it's just too expensive to keep the ride going. In Vortex's case, it seems like they can still get parts, so I don't think it'll be an expense thing. I haven't heard much about the track or supports breaking like was supposedly going on regularly with Dragons at Universal. So I don't see Vortex getting removed for maintenance reasons in the near future. The question about do they want to use that plot for something else is another question. From a practical standpoint, as long as it keep running relatively full trains, it would be hard to replace it from a capacity standpoint. Anything else they put there isn't going to have a dramatically larger capacity. So it would take ridership dropping quite a bit to make a swap for a newer ride make sense. 

On 6/24/2019 at 11:35 AM, Maverick44 said:

I would be very happy to have something other then B&M. Give us something launched like a Blitz coaster!!!! I would love to intimin come back into the fray! Don't hate on me just because I would love to see that. I know my opinion is not what yours is. I still think its a possibility myself. I would love to a cowboy coaster come in and replace the TR:TR tan box. Maybe even have the coaster go in and out of the box.

I also would love the park to replace KKBC at some point and get a nice long tall flume. I really miss KKBC.

They could also add some flats to a park that has what....1 major flat ride?

You want an Intamin? And a Blitz at that? Wow. Why have you never told us this before? 

[Maverick44]

1 minute ago, fryoj said:

 

You want an Intamin? And a Blitz at that? Wow. Why have you never told us this before? 

Hey now be nice! Everyone else is saying other things as well! I boy can dream! I also would like a new flume  and a return of the Phantom!!! Is it really tjhat bad to ask for a Blitz coaster? They are pretty amazing.

[SonofBaconator]

Please don't turn this into another Intamin trolling thread or I'll just ask to have this page locked. I started a thread on Cedar Fair and Intamin a while back- go post on that.

[Benjamin22]

Another possible option would of course be to get an entirely new model from B&M, it’s been almost 10 years (at least when we likely get our next coaster) since B&M would have released a new coaster model so I’d expect they’d have something new by then. 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

If we get an RMC, I want it to break 200 feet like Steel Vengeance and have a 90° drop and loads of airtime. If they go topper track, I would hope for them to go after the wooden coaster records. I doubt they would go longest because of how Beast is in the same park and I would doubt the park would want to make a coaster longer than Beast. That's probably why they didn't go for the steel coaster length record with project X. 

[SonofBaconator]

Son of Beast was the second longest coaster in the world if I remember correctly.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

23 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

Son of Beast was the second longest coaster in the world if I remember correctly.

Behind Beast of course. Now, I believe Voyage is second longest. I would love if we could take the most airtime on any coaster record from Steel Vengeance if we get an RMC. 

[SonofBaconator]

20 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I would love if we could take the most airtime on any coaster record from Steel Vengeance if we get an RMC. 

Doubtful. KI doesn't really try to beat CP- they make their own records to break.

[Maverick44]

14 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

Please don't turn this into another Intamin trolling thread or I'll just ask to have this page locked. I started a thread on Cedar Fair and Intamin a while back- go post on that.

I didn’t do it!

I think RMC could go after the tallest wooden coaster in the world. Why not have the tallest and longest in the same park?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gordon Bombay]

13 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

Son of Beast was the second longest coaster in the world if I remember correctly.

 

13 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

Behind Beast of course. Now, I believe Voyage is second longest. I would love if we could take the most airtime on any coaster record from Steel Vengeance if we get an RMC. 

In 2000, the year Son of Beast debuted, it would've been the fourth longest roller coaster in the world, but the second longest wooden roller coaster in the world. 

When Voyage debuted in 2006, it fell just behind Son of Beast. 

So, during SOB's lifetime: 

World's Longest Rollercoasters:
1. Steel Dragon 2000
2. The Ultimate
3. The Beast
4. Son of Beast

World's Longest Wooden Rollercoasters:
1. The Beast
2. Son of Beast
3. The Voyage

[purdude86]

It’s not something I see needing to happen soon but if Vortex ever had to be removed I think that would be the perfect spot for a B&M dice coaster.  Have the lift in the same spot with the drop facing out towards the Eiffel Tower.

agree with others that there might be a new design by the time they’d add another major coaster that could go in somewhere. Would love to see an RMC though. Another pipe dream but with current names wouldn’t mind seeing Action Zone changed to a dark woods themed as discussed elsewhere and have Invertigo and Timberwolf removes and a new RMC hybrid go in that area.

[Maverick44]

^^ What is they did dark woods would be amazing because you really could retheme  Congo falls into something dark wood related "Dark Falls" or something.

[SonofBaconator]

@purdude86 not that I wouldn't want a dive coaster, if you follow me on this site you know that I love dive coasters, but it would be weird to see a 200+foot tall coaster next to another 200+ft tall coaster. Maybe that's just me. Then again I'm used to going to parks where the taller rides are spread out amongst the skyline.

[Maverick44]

^^ A dive coaster where The Bat is right now would be pretty cool. Just like The Bats hill right now drops down into ravine a bit. That gives you a more spread out look.