Should chains invest in indoor parks?

[SonofBaconator]

I was reading up on the Nickelodeon Universe in New Jersey just outside of NYC. They feature 5 coasters which is extremely impressive when you look at their stats and where they're placed. That got me thinking, should park chains enter this race? I argue yes.

Operating an indoor park could have the many benefits such as:

• Year round operations
• Can remain open during rain, snow, etc
• Could incorporate a resort/waterpark

There's certain cities in America that I think could benefit from an indoor amusement park: Seattle, Phoenix, Vegas, and Houston come to mind. 

There's obviously a reason why we don't see that many indoor amusement parks in the US but I think not looking into them would be a missed opportunity.

[BeeastFarmer]

It all comes down to money.  They would project the cost/long term operational expenses vs projected income.

It's unfortunate for the Dream Mall--opening during a global pandemic.  Malls in general are in decline.  It will be interesting to see how it works out.

For a company like Cedar Fair, it would be very expensive.  Would they take up land at a park like KI or would they buy a different property?  Even a small park would require several acres under one roof, so the building shell would cost millions upon millions.  I think duplicated rides would reduce the appeal (do you want to ride Scrambler inside or outside?) 

So, my ultimate opinion is maybe...depending on the local market and would it be considered viable in the long term.

[MDMC01]

I think it would interesting to see more indoor theme parks pop up. While not exactly the same thing, I seem to remember family fun centers being more common when In was a kid. In fact, there was one of those that was closer to my house than KI (I didn't drive at the time, but still).

Also, as for the ride selection of an indoor park being near a major theme park, if done right, it could complement said theme park. For example, Zamperla Hawk 48's are fun (and slightly terrifying) outside, but what if there was one inside with just a low enough ceiling that it feels like you'll hit your legs on the roof of the building every time you invert (not literally, but that's the idea). Or even use Tomb Raider as an example of an indoor flat that works and offers a different experience than an outdoor version. I think these could work if they had a ride selection that was different from other theme parks in their city while also providing unique experiences.

[CoastersRZ]

Remember, there used to be Krazy City at Tri-County Mall.  It opened in December of 2007, and was closed by December of 2009. It featured electric go-karts, an arcade, mini bowling, mini golf, a couple small flat rides including a Wisdom Tornado ride, a Moser Spring Tower among a few others.

I agree that indoor FECs (Family Entertainment Centers) can be fun.  In the Cincinnati market, there is Scene 75 in Milford.  They also have locations in Dayton and Columbus (and have begun adding the SBF spinning coasters to some of their locations (not the Cincinnati location yet).

I agree that an indoor amusement park/water park combo could be a big hit, especially when coupled with a resort hotel like the Great Wolf Lodge.  For chains like Six Flags and Cedar Fair, it would provide a way to generate revenue in the slower winter months.  But the capital outlay needed to get such an endeavor off the ground is likely cost prohibitive.  Not to mention that they need capital investments to continue to give people a reason to return after their initial visit(s).  Given the current pandemic and how Cedar Fair and Six Flags are just trying to slow down their cash burn until things return somewhat to normal, I would not look for either of them to launch into the FEC circuit any time soon.

[grsupercity]

Isn't there a large indoor park in Cleveland during the winter months?

[Maddog]

16 minutes ago, grsupercity said:

Isn't there a large indoor park in Cleveland during the winter months?

If you are thinking of the IX Indoor Amusement Park, it is no more...

From: https://ixamusementpark.com

Thank you for all the memories!

On September 16, 2020, the I-X Center Corporation announced the closure of the International Exposition (I-X) Center due to the coronavirus pandemic. The global pandemic has decimated the event industry as well as many other businesses and has ultimately led to this decision.

The I-X Center would like to thank all its customers, employees, and attendees who helped make the I-X Center a success over the past 35 years. ❤️

[SonofBaconator]

On 10/16/2020 at 12:29 PM, CoastersRZ said:

I agree that an indoor amusement park/water park combo could be a big hit, especially when coupled with a resort hotel like the Great Wolf Lodge.  For chains like Six Flags and Cedar Fair, it would provide a way to generate revenue in the slower winter months.

The key would be to enter markets where its difficult for traditional amusement parks to operate in- Seattle, Phoenix, Vegas, etc. An amusement park in a controlled climate would be opportune.

Also some of these cities have high populations which would almost guarantee consistent attendance. For example, Phoenix has a metro population of nearly 5 million and has been growing for decades. The city is in a super hot climate which would justify an indoor park, especially given that all of their professional sports venues are enclosed.

Covid has certainly made these types of speculations more far fetched but I don't think the possibility of building an indoor park in a huge market should be overlooked. If you don't try to adapt to different markets, you're going to end up missing out on the potential money makers-and this isn't just for current park chains but anyone who's looking to build in a difficult market.

Now I don't think CF would ever want to risk something like this due to the current nature of this pandemic but like I said, I think it would be worth looking into.

[CoastersRZ]

Castles and Coasters in Phoenix seems to do fine, and it isn`t enclosed.  

I visited in the spring of 2016.  Nothing spectacular, and the place was pretty busy.  But it was an overcast day in late April.  Not the middle of July when the temperatures would have been much more unbearable.

 

I agree thought that the markets you mentioned would likely be successful if one were built.

[SonofBaconator]

This looks like a unique way to utilize some failing/abandoned malls:
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpSWfc7AKm3/?igshid=ZjE2NGZiNDQ=

[Leland Wykoff]

Cedar Fair managed the indoor amusement park at the Mall of America for many years.  Lessons were learned, and FUN gave up the contract, when it ran out.  This may, or may not, give us clues as to the viability of operating indoor amusement parks in malls.  Upon Cedar Fair's exit from the MOA the Camp Snoopy branding was removed as CF would not license rights to Peanuts to the new operator. 

 

[westcoaster]

In a heartbeat... cedar or six should asap look vegas n phoenix 

 

Disney should to...

[SonofBaconator]

I’m surprised no chain has looked into Vegas considering the only park they have is Adventuredome.

[Taylor.B03]

3 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

I’m surprised no chain has looked into Vegas considering the only park they have is Adventuredome.

Vegas isn't like any other real estate, it's far different from any other region in the US, you basically have to commit and go all in on it, it's quite literally a gamble. Not to mention, the shear power of the established chains that dominate there. Only chains like Disney and Universal would have a chance to succeed due to the amount of resources they have. It's just not worth it. The only way I could see a chain going there is if there was a sale of the adventuredome, or a local government aided offer (ex: tax breaks, city selling land at a discount, etc.) 

[DoomPlague]

On 10/18/2020 at 4:03 PM, SonofBaconator said:

The key would be to enter markets where its difficult for traditional amusement parks to operate in- Seattle, Phoenix, Vegas, etc. An amusement park in a controlled climate would be opportune.

Also some of these cities have high populations which would almost guarantee consistent attendance. For example, Phoenix has a metro population of nearly 5 million and has been growing for decades. The city is in a super hot climate which would justify an indoor park, especially given that all of their professional sports venues are enclosed.

Covid has certainly made these types of speculations more far fetched but I don't think the possibility of building an indoor park in a huge market should be overlooked. If you don't try to adapt to different markets, you're going to end up missing out on the potential money makers-and this isn't just for current park chains but anyone who's looking to build in a difficult market.

Now I don't think CF would ever want to risk something like this due to the current nature of this pandemic but like I said, I think it would be worth looking into.

Seattle is one I've thought about a lot. Everyone insists it rains too much there but it actually rains more at Kings Island, a successful park, than it does in the Seattle-Tacoma area. What's more is that rainfall drops off a good bit there in the summer, which would be a park's main season. Though I tried to tell someone in the area this and they wouldn't hear it. It's like rain is part of their identity.

 

I like the idea of indoor parks that can run year round and out of the elements but it seems like it has to be the exact right place to work out. And as far as Cedar Fair, they seem averse to building any indoor, air-conditioned environments.

[SonofBaconator]

1 hour ago, DoomPlague said:

Seattle is one I've thought about a lot. Everyone insists it rains too much there but it actually rains more at Kings Island, a successful park, than it does in the Seattle-Tacoma area. What's more is that rainfall drops off a good bit there in the summer, which would be a park's main season. Though I tried to tell someone in the area this and they wouldn't hear it. It's like rain is part of their identity.

There’s also the argument of year round operations. I’ve never been to the Pacific Northwest but I’d imagine the winters aren’t super pleasant.

[jzarley]

12 hours ago, Taylor.B03 said:

Vegas isn't like any other real estate, it's far different from any other region in the US, you basically have to commit and go all in on it, it's quite literally a gamble. Not to mention, the shear power of the established chains that dominate there. Only chains like Disney and Universal would have a chance to succeed due to the amount of resources they have. It's just not worth it. The only way I could see a chain going there is if there was a sale of the adventuredome, or a local government aided offer (ex: tax breaks, city selling land at a discount, etc.) 

Back in the 90s there was a push to make Vegas more “family friendly” (i.e., Orlando-like) and there were several theme park-like attractions around at that time.

There was actually a small attempt at a traditional outdoor theme park on the grounds of the MGM Grand resort called MGM Grand Adventures. I was there one time on opening day of a season in very early Spring. It was a pretty and well-themed park, but very small. I remember very little about the rides, except not feeling too impressed. I do remember thinking at the time “well, I never need to do this again”

The Luxor resort had three attractions that told different parts of the same story. If I recall there was a motion simulator, a 4-D movie and (I think?) a boat dark ride. The thing that was interesting was that you could experience the attractions in any order and the storyline still made sense. I thought it was a really interesting and imaginative concept. I see some elements of that storytelling approach today in “Rise of the Resistance” at Disney. Granted, you don’t experience the ride elements separately on your own like at Luxor, but there are multiple ride experiences combined together to tell one overall story.

But, I think the best attractions in Vegas (or really, ANYWHERE at that time) was Star Trek: The Experience at the LV Hilton! For a Star Trek fan, this place was nirvana! It really showed how good Paramount Parks creative could be when not limited to the budget of a seasonal park. The theming, attractions and quality was top notch. The Klingon Encounter motion simulator was state-of-the-art and easily the best simulator of that type. They also introduced immersive themed food & beverage and retail many years before Universal did it with Harry Potter. (At Quark’s Bar, I remember drinking two “Warp Core Breach” drinks which were especially potent). Part of the queue for the simulator included a part where you were “beamed” into the future and onto the Enterprise-D. It’s surprisingly similar to the same flavor of experience today on the Guardians of the Galaxy coaster at Epcot (just done 30 years later). There was also a Borg 4D movie that was very well done. I’m pretty sure that if I could go back and experience ANY attraction from the past, it would be ST:TE!

Then, I guess Vegas decided to re-embrace their “sin city” roots (the whole “what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas” campaign) and the effort to be Orlando-in-the-desert was left behind. That’s not a bad thing—Vegas is its own very unique part of American culture the way it is. But, during that brief attempt there were a few really well done themed attractions.

[MisterSG1]

I thought the main indoor amusement parks that come to mind, that is the ones at WEM, MOA, and American Dream are mostly child oriented. For the most part I thought they resemble something more like an indoor version of Planet Snoopy with a few small roller coasters.

I mean there's no way you're going to build a B&M indoors without a huge structure that many people would see as an eyesore and most likely impractical.

Here's an example, Toronto's SkyDome (I will never call it by its current name) which opened in 1989 was the world's first retractable roof stadium, the roof is quite high, 280 feet, but that's not even taller than a giga coaster's lift hill. Consider that modern stadiums costs billion of dollars to build which just encloses really a football field and seating around it. Just imagine how much it would cost to build a stadium like structure to house all of the rides in a place the size of Kings Island, it would cost billions of dollars to just build the impressive indoor structure itself. That's why I think a true indoor theme park is a non starter.

I do think that indoor water parks/resorts have a real potential however, but an indoor theme park just seems too much.

[MDMC01]

Speaking of retractable roofs, I thought it would be really cool if Flight of Fear had one. However, that may hurt its theme/uniqueness as an indoor coaster

[Buckeye Brad]

Your Toronto Skydome comparison is a good one. I watched a game there, and while it a cool structure, it’s huge and impractical for a theme park.

Am alternative might be to build a huge coaster outside as normal, but build a sleeve or tube around the track to protect it from the elements.

Think if the tube around the launch hill of The Incredible Hulk continued over the entire run, or at least the areas that are high or stick out. Granted, a “tunnel” at 300 feet is one more safety risk and thing to maintain. But certainly cheaper than a Skydome.

Many indoor waterparks use a similar strategy where part of the tube slides extend outside the building, yet are still sheltered. Less square footage of climate controlled interior sure required.

When I was a kid I thought it would be ideal if The Vortex had a zip together tent like tunnel that would  be attached along the entire track run every winter to allow Winterfest rides. 

A bobsled coasters like Reptilian (Avalanche) at Kings Doninion is halfway there. Just construct the half of the track and you have a “tube coaster”. Protected from the the elements. And faster ride due to less wind resistance. 

[purdude86]

12 hours ago, MisterSG1 said:

I thought the main indoor amusement parks that come to mind, that is the ones at WEM, MOA, and American Dream are mostly child oriented. For the most part I thought they resemble something more like an indoor version of Planet Snoopy with a few small roller coasters.

I mean there's no way you're going to build a B&M indoors without a huge structure that many people would see as an eyesore and most likely impractical.

Here's an example, Toronto's SkyDome (I will never call it by its current name) which opened in 1989 was the world's first retractable roof stadium, the roof is quite high, 280 feet, but that's not even taller than a giga coaster's lift hill. Consider that modern stadiums costs billion of dollars to build which just encloses really a football field and seating around it. Just imagine how much it would cost to build a stadium like structure to house all of the rides in a place the size of Kings Island, it would cost billions of dollars to just build the impressive indoor structure itself. That's why I think a true indoor theme park is a non starter.

I do think that indoor water parks/resorts have a real potential however, but an indoor theme park just seems too much.

This is my thoughts too. A true amusement park on the scale of KI is just not feasible indoors. They can provide a mix of thrills and family entertainment but you aren't going to be able to build massive coasters that will really draw people to the park. Space will be limited so new attractions will be infrequent and generally on a smaller scale. So anything that would open as an indoor park would need to be able to sustain itself on a mostly regional market and not on a national/global scale. So the cost to operate, let alone build one, is probably not that great compared to ROI. 

And as mentioned above, this has been tried multiple times in Vegas and hasn't really worked. Adventuredome is the only one really left and it seems to be struggling. I think a smaller scale one could work and be popular enough in places like Seattle, but I think it would be hard to really get it off the ground with the upfront costs.

[westcoaster]

Yes indeed they should. 365.look at MOA las vegas n New jersey.. Plus look no further than Great wolf lidfe 365 days a year. 

[SonofBaconator]

On 5/9/2023 at 10:36 AM, purdude86 said:

I think a smaller scale one could work and be popular enough in places like Seattle, but I think it would be hard to really get it off the ground with the upfront costs.

If you look at the one in New Jersey and MOA, they’re entirely themed to Nickelodeon so it makes it a lot easier to market to families. 
 

I’d imagine if you’re building a small indoor park you’d want to try to get ahold of a popular IP

[MisterSG1]

Sorry if I was misunderstood, I didn't say the roof had to be retractable, what I always imagined for a dream project were a series of large glass bubbles that would house the indoor structure to the indoor theme park.

Think of something like the Amazon Spheres but MUCH larger than that, speaking of Amazon, they seem like the only ones who would be capable with the amount of money it would cost to build a series of glass domes interconnected and large enough to house a theme park inside the size of Kings Island. 

The indoor water park/resort idea has been tried before and if I recall, the results are marginal at best with popularity, I'm referring to Tropical Islands in Germany. An indoor resort/water park built inside a hangar. I've always had a dream project that in Downsview Park in northern Toronto, they should build something similar to Tropical Islands and an NFL stadium to create a new entertainment area. Will it happen, very unlikely, but it would be an awesome project.