silver2005 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 27 minutes ago, jsus said: One thing that troubles me is that some enthusiasts want every new ride installation to be the most mind-blowing thing they've ever seen. Yes, pushing the limits and creating new thrills at the high thrill end of the ride portfolio is important to keep thrill-seekers engaged. To an extent. (Not to the extent of that mythical ride in Saudi Arabia; that's overkill, but anyway..). There is still a decent segment of park attendance that doesn't want to ride those super-high thrill rides. Some guests would prefer something less tame. Wise park planners will take this into account, creating rides of many thrill levels. Also, low-to-moderate thrill rides will reach end-of-life over time and need replacement. One example where this dynamic came up was GateKeeper. Many enthusiasts complain it's not an extremely high thrill ride. But guess what? It wasn't intended to be. It's a more moderate thrill ride designed to welcome you to the park, not to pander to enthusiasts. And I love it for what it is. I think parks are kind of to blame for that mentality since it seems all the bigger parks know how to market are rides with some sort of record, legit or mundane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsus Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Just now, silver2005 said: I think parks are kind of to blame for that mentality since it seems all the bigger parks know how to market are rides with some sort of record, legit or mundane. That's just marketing - finding some unique and interesting way to describe the ride to make people want to ride it. Even if a ride isn't the most extreme thing ever built, they still need to tell you how much fun it is. "Introducing GateKeeper, a brief, tame, leisurely ride around the front of the park. Oh and it flips you over a few times, I guess." Who would want to ride that? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coaster sally Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 The premise of the post is that parks coming out of the pandemic buying rmc, gerstlauer, vekoma, intamin, etc will see that there is no reason to purchase an overpriced b&m. If they could at least innovate their track/support design that would knock off alot of cash. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofBaconator Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 47 minutes ago, coaster sally said: Key words is "last decade". Let's see how many they build in the next 10 years.... That's 10 years of not buying a single product from the company. Doesn't that say anything to you? Since 2007: Shoot the Rapids had a boat flip in 2013 and permanently closed in 2015 ($10,000,000 investment that only lasted 5 years) I-305 had to be redesigned in response to extreme geforces Maverick had to have its heartline removed before it opened Intamin has cost the chain an insane amount of money for rides that have been plagued with downtime. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coaster sally Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 39 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said: That's 10 years of not buying a single product from the company. Doesn't that say anything to you? Since 2007: Shoot the Rapids had a boat flip in 2013 and permanently closed in 2015 ($10,000,000 investment that only lasted 5 years) I-305 had to be redesigned in response to extreme geforces Maverick had to have its heartline removed before it opened Intamin has cost the chain an insane amount of money for rides that have been plagued with downtime. Intamin(a superb company) is not relevant in this thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsus Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 17 minutes ago, coaster sally said: Intamin(a superb company) is not relevant in this thread. Not relevant to your claim that parks will buy rides from essentially everyone but B&M somehow as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic? Then what is relevant? Bashing B&M with no basis in reality? 18 minutes ago, coaster sally said: (a superb company) The post you replied to used specific evidence that refutes that. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coaster sally Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, jsus said: Not relevant to your claim that parks will buy rides from essentially everyone but B&M somehow as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic? Then what is relevant? Bashing B&M with no basis in reality? I am saying with parks being more fiscally responsible they will go with companies that will give them more bang for their buck. B&M is overpriced handily for what you get. The GP just sees a cool new ride for 10-15 million or 25+ million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsus Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 19 minutes ago, coaster sally said: B&M is overpriced handily for what you get. [citation needed] That's really all that's left to be said here. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofBaconator Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, coaster sally said: Intamin(a superb company) is not relevant in this thread. On 2/1/2021 at 10:33 AM, coaster sally said: Gerstlauer, Vekoma, RMC, and even Intamin have budget coasters that beats the socks off on a 20+ million b&m. . I see a lot of Gerstaluer infinity, RMC raptors, Intamin hyper & hot racers coming to parks around us sooner than later. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver2005 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, coaster sally said: I am saying with parks being more fiscally responsible they will go with companies that will give them more bang for their buck. B&M is overpriced handily for what you get. The GP just sees a cool new ride for 10-15 million or 25+ million. That's all the parks needs the GP (their target demographic) to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coaster sally Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 Just now, silver2005 said: That's all the parks needs the GP (their target demographic) to see. Correct, they would be happy with a Gerstlauer infinity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsus Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 54 minutes ago, jsus said: [citation needed] That's really all that's left to be said here. @coaster sally No, seriously, do you care to explain yourself or just troll? Please explain how you're "confused" at me saying you need to start providing evidence, including of your claims against B&M. Your claims imply negligence on the behalf of Cedar Fair management, that they are spending more money on inferior rides, thus running the company inefficiently. Me thinks you're either confused in perpetuity, or trolling. Care to share which it is? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coaster sally Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 On 2/1/2021 at 10:33 AM, coaster sally said: Parks are not going to be willing to spend 20+ million on attractions coming out of the pandemic. Even Cedar Fair b&m's largest US client is saying they will invest in experiences and smaller scale attractions. Gerstlauer, Vekoma, RMC, and even Intamin have budget coasters that beats the socks off on a 20+ million b&m. Kondda at walibi belgium cost under 16million USD, that is remarkable. A vekoma Bermuda blitz like Lech Coaster costs under 10 million usd. The only comparable costs b&m is a junior dive coaster and they are short rides but probably better than their counterparts like valravyn/Yukon striker. I see a lot of Gerstaluer infinity, RMC raptors, Intamin hyper & hot racers coming to parks around us sooner than later. Thoughts? For jsus, the original post if he/she forgot the point of this. And @jsusyou put confused emotions on all my posts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsus Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 15 minutes ago, coaster sally said: And @jsusyou put confused emotions on all my posts.... Nope, only the ones I happen to read that don't make sense to me, and I don't single you or anyone out if that's what you're implying. I'm also confused why you feel the need to quote your OP, when that and subsequent replies are what I've been responding to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsus Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 @coaster sally Given your confusion to my last post, but no clarification on what confused you, this is the part where I shrug and exit stage left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coaster sally Posted February 5, 2021 Author Share Posted February 5, 2021 1 minute ago, jsus said: @coaster sally Given your confusion to my last post, but no clarification on what confused you, this is the part where I shrug and exit stage left. I am confused since I am pretty clear that the reason for the decline in b&m products is that parks are not going to be spending b&m money when they can get a quality product for less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver2005 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 ^What's your basis for B&M rides being in decline? Because you don't like them? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coaster sally Posted February 5, 2021 Author Share Posted February 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, silver2005 said: ^What's your basis for B&M rides being in decline? Because you don't like them? They cost much more money. I really don't understand what the confusion is. @SonofBaconatoryou understood my post right off The Bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver2005 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 Just one reason? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenban Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 Many enthusiasts do not understand ride pricing, and how to properly compare the price of attractions. That $24 million or $30 million dollar B&M is for the entire project. That’s the total being spent everything from land clearing, design, track, trains, control systems, to the theming, signs, and plaza. On a ride like Orion that is going to include projects done at the same time, like the modifications to the Flight of Fear queue, the plaza, food stand, etc. Which is why it’s often difficult to compare the price of two coasters because what enthusiasts have access to is not really the price of the coaster itself. Is a B&M more expensive then a comparable ride from another manufacturer? Yes, but not by as much as you might think. This is also the cost of the attraction and ignores the total cost of ownership. Cedar Fair has publicly stated part of the reason they like B&M is the reduced maintenance costs. There is only one time that I can remember the real cost of a B&M leaking. If I am remembering the source correctly, the local newspaper in Sandusky published a document they received which gave the pricing breakdown for Valravn. The issue with finding the information today is that it was published well before the ride opened and I think it was also before the name was announced. I know it was available on the internet a few years ago, but I suspect finding it today will be difficult. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsus Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 17 minutes ago, Kenban said: There is only one time that I can remember the real cost of a B&M leaking. If I am remembering the source correctly, the local newspaper in Sandusky published a document they received which gave the pricing breakdown for Valravn. The issue with finding the information today is that it was published well before the ride opened and I think it was also before the name was announced. I know it was available on the internet a few years ago, but I suspect finding it today will be difficult. Yep: http://web.archive.org/web/20150913213550/sanduskyregister.com/entertainment/fairs-festivals/7372661/ http://web.archive.org/web/20150918174504/http://www.sanduskyregister.com/entertainment/fairs-festivals/7372776 Quote A memo from Bolliger & Mabillard, based in Switzerland, appears to detail a new $15 million coaster tagged in the memo as The Dive Coaster. Bollinger & Mabillard crafted The Dive Coaster, which simulates being in a Bomber that is diving straight down at breakneck speeds. And even then, I don't recall ever having actually seen the "memo" alleged by Sandusky Register, just their article about it. So, we don't even know what the alleged $15 million figure involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenban Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 12 minutes ago, jsus said: Yep: http://web.archive.org/web/20150913213550/sanduskyregister.com/entertainment/fairs-festivals/7372661/ http://web.archive.org/web/20150918174504/http://www.sanduskyregister.com/entertainment/fairs-festivals/7372776 And even then, I don't recall ever having actually seen the "memo" alleged by Sandusky Register, just their article about it. So, we don't even know what the alleged $15 million figure involved. That’s the thing I remember another article which went into detail and broke that price down, x going to Clermont for the steel, y going to B&M, etc. That was what made it different and special. Wonder if it was not the Sandusky Register and was instead another site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsus Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 17 minutes ago, Kenban said: That’s the thing I remember another article which went into detail and broke that price down, x going to Clermont for the steel, y going to B&M, etc. That was what made it different and special. Wonder if it was not the Sandusky Register and was instead another site. It's entirely possible that more details leaked. I could've easily missed it at the time, and those are the only articles I can easily find. The thread on PointBuzz never seemed to dig up any concrete details, though. (Source: https://forums.pointbuzz.com/Forums/Topic/dive-coaster-coming-to-cedar-point-2/3#531420) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Bombay Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 "B&M is too expensive..." ...so let's buy Intamin to appease some ACERs and spend infinitely more on maintaining it the next ten years while getting less in return? 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofBaconator Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 From what I read online (and its the only figure I could find so don't take it as a solid source) Valravn cost between $20-$25 million https://www.google.com/amp/s/accountingintheheadlines.com/2016/08/30/would-the-costs-related-to-cedar-points-valravn-roller-coaster-be-expensed-or-capitalized/amp/ I thought I heard $23 million somewhere but don't quote me. To what @Kenban said, the cost isn't just the ride itself but the whole project. They had to demolish the theater and the turnpike cars before clearing the land Pay to have the coaster designed and manufactured Ship it Pay a company to install it Pay for additional things like a new entrance and such It all adds up 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean69 Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 On 2/1/2021 at 1:49 PM, coaster sally said: A certain park in florida tore down two b&m's to make room for two new Intamins. Just saying... that was for a totally unrelated reason though. dualing dragons didn’t fit in Harry Potter world. your point is invalid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TombRaiderFTW Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 ^ I have no horse in this B&M versus Intamin race, but I don't think Universal ever said why Dragon Challenge was removed. However, speculating based on Hulk's track replacement, I'd speculate that any B&M operating basically continually for 18 years would probably have reached the end of its service life, and the park had to make the decision between replacing the track and putting in a whole new ride. If we roughly approximate a seasonal park as operating for 6 months a year, that's the same as a B&M operating for 36 years--a very reasonable lifespan for a steel coaster. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coaster sally Posted May 25, 2021 Author Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, TombRaiderFTW said: ^ I have no horse in this B&M versus Intamin race, but I don't think Universal ever said why Dragon Challenge was removed. However, speculating based on Hulk's track replacement, I'd speculate that any B&M operating basically continually for 18 years would probably have reached the end of its service life, and the park had to make the decision between replacing the track and putting in a whole new ride. If we roughly approximate a seasonal park as operating for 6 months a year, that's the same as a B&M operating for 36 years--a very reasonable lifespan for a steel coaster. Montu and Kumba? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofBaconator Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 8 hours ago, coaster sally said: Montu and Kumba? I think it all depends on how popular a ride is. People don't necessarily like Hulk because its a B&M but more so because its a very popular IP. Whether Busch Gardens keeps Montu or Kumba depends on how popular they continue to be with guests. If they were the top two most ridden rides in the park, there might be incentive to retrack them out of popularity. Dueling Dragons wasn't necessarily a popular ride and when Harry Potter came in, they tried to tie it in to the wizarding world the best they could. Not to say that it was unpopular, it was just a coaster that lost the dueling feature. If the Hagrid's ride could have been built elsewhere, I don't necessarily think Universal would have scrapped Dragon Challenge at that time. IMO when it comes to themed rides, its not the manufacturer that makes the ride popular, its the park. Case in point- look at who manufactured Expedition Everest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabe Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Popular enough, yet cant be bothered to fix the main attraction of the ride! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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