Top Thrill Dragster Incident

[BeeastFarmer]

^Charlotte is calling you, Cedar Fair!

[Browntggrr]

18 hours ago, Tr0y said:

Looks like MF is receiving or has received new brackets: 

Unless they are looking at another part of the car, the way the L brackets work with the prox switches, the bracket would be on the very front & very back of the train.

[Browntggrr]

Some interesting articles from Sandusky Register:

https://sanduskyregister.com/news/343711/cedar-point-not-above-the-law/

Justin Harris an attorney with Remlinger Co. LPA in Sandusky, representing Cedar Point, told the Register the park's emergency personnel only work in the capacity to give basic first aid; they have to call city EMS to transport a seriously injured person.

"Cedar Point has a first aid department that provides general first aid medical treatment to employees and guests," Harris said. "If there is a medical situation that requires advanced medical treatment, such as emergency room care, a call for ambulance services is made to Sandusky Fire Department."

https://sanduskyregister.com/news/341080/coaster-injury-still-hurts/

 

 

[BeeastFarmer]

^I am not  versed in law about police agencies releasing information to the press--I mean what benefit is there to revealing an accident victim's name to the public--but CP Police seem to be in the wrong if the court said so even if they were morally correct.

 

I did not see the quoted text in the editorial, but I would agree that any amusement park is capable of performing basic first aid rather than advance medical care.  Sort of like a hospital patient in acute care that needs advanced care--they are transferred to ICU.  In my experience, emergency services will take a person to the closest hospital for first line care and then choppered to a level one trauma center.  Sometimes the chopper is sent to the scene, but this is rare because of landing conditions.  This would have been very challenging at CP with little open space and tall rides everywhere.

[jsus]

I'm not really sure where that "journalist" gets the notion that the information that the park released is "self-serving" when they came out almost immediately after the incident and appeared to take full responsibility by acknowledging that a (relatively) small metal object "became disengaged", resulting in injuries requiring medical care beyond on-site EMS.

As for how much info is right to release and when, morally and legally, I dunno.  I do know that they were demanding answers before an investigation could provide them.

Not really sure what their deal is at the ol' Register.

[Browntggrr]

17 hours ago, jsus said:

Not really sure what their deal is at the ol' Register.

SR does deal with numerous police departments & just wants the same reporting from CP.  The article of the injured guest on Raptor does have some alarming red flags.

That being said- SR has had a beef with CF when VP Duff Milkie unexpectedly left earlier this year.  They wanted to have a sit-down interview with CEO Rich Zimmerman about CF's direction in Sandusky and if there was a plan to officially move corporate HQ to Charlotte.  That request was met with notable silence.  Zimmerman did eventually sit down with Sandusky officials, but I do not believe he ever interviewed with SR.

Milkie was a strong supporter of Sandusky (and Sandusky resident before joining CF) and was quite vocal about the move and the recent moves of corporate execs over the last year-ish.

CF is easily Sandusky's largest employer.  SR is overly concerned about the loss in tax dollars.  SR is also likely taking the snub to a personal level.  I live on the Southern shores of Lake Erie and will say that after the holidays are over, the return to work after New Years to St. Patrick's Day can be grueling when it comes to the weather.  Dark, grey, windy, cold, snow....are not exactly attractive attributes to corporate execs & their families when the other choice is significantly milder weather.

It should also be noted that Paramount Parks HQ was also based in Charlotte.

[BeeastFarmer]

^I understand the tension here, but I don't think the company owes a newspaper anything other that what public record requires.  The SR, in my opinion, is making things worse for the city by engaging in this fight.  Right or wrong, why would a company keep a HQ in a hostile environment?  The company and city should have their discussion(s) and if it is subject to public records request, then the SR should request it through channels.

I the the SR is actually hurting themselves and the community by "picking this fight."

[Browntggrr]

It will be interesting to find out if CP has submitted any information to SR & if SR is just looking for a fight as you have suggested and seems to be the case.

If CP has submitted information & SR is taking this public just to make CF look bad, is MAJOR mud on their face.

The other thing I have noticed- SR seems more concerned about obtaining the public records as opposed to the well being of the injured woman.

[Kenban]

10 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

^I understand the tension here, but I don't think the company owes a newspaper anything other that what public record requires.  […] The company and city should have their discussion(s) and if it is subject to public records request, then the SR should request it through channels.

Except this is the papers complaint.  That the park is not willing to provide the information that the paper believes it is required to provide under state law and decisions made by the states Supreme Court.  Having read the argument the paper is making I actually agree with the paper that the parks security likely will be forced to respond and provide documents and information.  I am not sure if what the paper requested is really that important, but from what I can tell the paper is correct and the park appears to be breaking the law.

The city would not be involved here and has nothing to do with this.  You make Freedom of Information Act requests directly to the agency.  In this case that means you request documents directly from the parks security.  It reads to me like the park is refusing to respond to those requests and is instructing the paper to talk to the parks lawyers.  Which is part of the problem here, none of us know what the parks response has been.

[BeeastFarmer]

I think we (or I) are conflating two distinct issues:  1. The newspaper and it's quest for information.  Not being learned in this and just going from a common sense perspective, I personally don't think CP is in the wrong generally.  They tweeted almost immediately after the accident a very straight forward description.  The SR wants more details, but the investigation is ongoing--so when is the appropriate time to release it?  And why is it so important to release the victim's name?  That should be up to her and or her family.

2.  The relationship between CF and the city of Sandusky.  It seems lots of corporate folks to Charlotte, which only makes sense--centralized airport, more attractive climate etc.  Sandusky is concerned.  The SR just seems to stir the pot, which may be harmful to the relationship with the city even though the city has no control over the newspaper.

 

In my opinion, just because something is legal does not make it right.  A student newspaper took on a crusade with a University about a faculty member who did some bad things.  The paper made FOIA requests that were denied as the investigation was ongoing.  The University did finally release redacted documents with names  of victims shaded out.  Paper pitched a fit and sued and a few years later.  But what good is it to publish the victim's names during the investigation or years later when they did not come forward after the paper pleaded them to?  I think their right to privacy over rides the paper's right to their name.  But again, I am in no way knowlegeable.  I just have my views of right and wrong.  Had I been a victim, I would not want my name published.

[Kenban]

3 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

I think we (or I) are conflating two distinct issues:  1. The newspaper and it's quest for information.  Not being learned in this and just going from a common sense perspective, I personally don't think CP is in the wrong generally.  They tweeted almost immediately after the accident a very straight forward description.  The SR wants more details, but the investigation is ongoing--so when is the appropriate time to release it?  And why is it so important to release the victim's name?  That should be up to her and or her family.

2.  The relationship between CF and the city of Sandusky.  It seems lots of corporate folks to Charlotte, which only makes sense--centralized airport, more attractive climate etc.  Sandusky is concerned.  The SR just seems to stir the pot, which may be harmful to the relationship with the city even though the city has no control over the newspaper.

In my opinion, just because something is legal does not make it right.  A student newspaper took on a crusade with a University about a faculty member who did some bad things.  The paper made FOIA requests that were denied as the investigation was ongoing.  The University did finally release redacted documents with names  of victims shaded out.  Paper pitched a fit and sued and a few years later.  But what good is it to publish the victim's names during the investigation or years later when they did not come forward after the paper pleaded them to?  I think their right to privacy over rides the paper's right to their name.  But again, I am in no way knowlegeable.  I just have my views of right and wrong.  Had I been a victim, I would not want my name published.

The Freedom of Information Act only applies to the parks security because of the fact that they are actually a real police department, the Cedar Point Police Department.  They are actual police officers with the ability to arrest individuals, write tickets, etc.  They are subject to many of the same standards as regular public police departments and are required to respond to FOIA requests.  If the park did not want to be subject to public scrutiny then it would have been as simple as not having an actual police force and instead just being park security.

There is no point to waiting for an investigation into the accident to end, or anything else to occur.  The only information that can be requested is what is generated by the parks police, which likely has nothing to do with the on going investigation.  Their work on the accident was basically done the day of the accident.

This kind of work by Newspapers and other media organizations is how investigative journalism is done.  You might disagree with this specific case but in the future what happens if they are investigating a serious crime?  Oversight of police departments is important and confirming the right for news organizations to have the ability to request documents and information is important.  I do not have an issue with having this fight now and confirming the parks responsibilities under the law instead of waiting for something else.  Like I said before if the park does not want to have to respond to these types of requests in the future then it just needs to no longer have a real police force.

I cannot imagine any decisions about corporate headquarters take into account the local newspaper.  I have spoken with people before about why they are located where they are in the chain.  I hear a lot about how Cedar Fair is giving people the option of where do they want to be located, the problem is everyone is making the same choice, Charlotte.  Jason McClure for instance when he was promoted from general manager of Cedar Point to regional Vice President of a number of parks including Kings Island, Cedar Point, and Carowinds, moved to Charlotte.  Honestly I get the feeling that the headquarters in Sandusky is little more than a building and to claim it is in Sandusky.  The move while still unofficial has already happened.

I do agree that personal details should only be published if the victim or their family consents.

[Browntggrr]

5 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

They tweeted almost immediately after the accident a very straight forward description.  The SR wants more details, but the investigation is ongoing--so when is the appropriate time to release it?  And why is it so important to release the victim's name?  That should be up to her and or her family.

The park was less interested in what was the appropriate time in 2015 following the Raptor accident.  The victim's name & exact details were released hours after the accident.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox8.com/news/sandusky-police-investigating-accident-at-cedar-point-near-raptor/amp/

[disco2000]

Here is some interesting information obtained at the FOIA website:

The Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) generally provides that any person has the right to request access to federal agency records or information except to the extent the records are protected from disclosure by any of nine exemptions contained in the law or by one of three special law enforcement record exclusions.

The FOIA applies only to federal agencies and does not create a right of access to records held by Congress, the courts, or by state or local government agencies.

 

So people throw around FOIA inaccurately, just as people do with HIPAA (or as most call it HIPPA lol)

But of course many states have passed their own comparable act, in Ohio it is called the Ohio Open Records Law:

 

....regulates and sets requirements for the disclosure of certain public records of certain public bodies in the state.....

Key Definitions:
"Public record" means records kept by any public office, including, but not limited to, state, county, city, village, township, and school district units, and records pertaining to the delivery of educational services by an alternative school in this state kept by the nonprofit or for-profit entity operating the alternative school pursuant to section 3313.533 of the Revised Code..... any other body which is created by state or local authority or which is primarily funded by or through state or local authority.

 

Many private colleges and universities in Ohio and other states, for example, has successfully defended their opinion that they do not have to comply with Open Records Requests as they are a private entity and the police force is not funded with tax payer dollars.

Whether we agree with that or not is irrelevant.  It is up to a court of law to determine the intent of this language and how/if it is applied to a private police force.  And until enough court decisions and/or Ohio Legislatures introduce bills to modify the Open Records Request law language, private entities like Cedar Fair and others will continue to lawyer up and defend their stance that they do not need to comply with an Open Records Request.

 

[disco2000]

1 minute ago, Browntggrr said:

The park was less interested in what was the appropriate time in 2015 following the Raptor accident.  The victim's name & exact details were released hours after the accident.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox8.com/news/sandusky-police-investigating-accident-at-cedar-point-near-raptor/amp/

Sorry for the double-post, but it was the Sandusky Police department that released this victim's name not Cedar Point, and death records are public records, unlike injury records, so the media has access to death records and most police departments will release the deceased name after next of kin was notified.  Plus the 2015 incident was a lot more clear-cut.

[Browntggrr]

2 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

Sorry for the double-post, but it was the Sandusky Police department that released this victim's name not Cedar Point, and death records are public records, unlike injury records, so the media has access to death records and most police departments will release the deceased name after next of kin was notified.  Plus the 2015 incident was a lot more clear-cut.

SANDUSKY– James Young, 45, has died after entering a restricted, fenced area near the Raptor roller coaster, Cedar Point has confirmed.

Quoted from the article's first paragraph.

[disco2000]

At best the article is ambiguous as to who stated the name at the time of the incident and that first paragraph could be journalistic editing to get to the point quickly, but I suspect the name was released by the police first and not CP.

The CP tweet and at least the partial press release in the article simply says a guest entered a restricted area and passed away and does not provide a name:

Cedar Point released the following statement about the accident:

At approximately 5 p.m., a guest entered a restricted, fenced area of the Raptor roller coaster and was struck by the ride. Park safety officials responded immediately to the situation. Unfortunately the guest has passed away. Local authorities are on the scene conducting an investigation.

Our thoughts and prayers go out to the family at this time.

So unless you can find something official from the park with the victim's name in it, or a news video where a park spokesperson mentions the victim by name and the timeline would match up to show they mentioned the name first instead of the police, I believe it was the Sandusky police that released the name first, as is customary in high profile/interest stories of a death.

Fox8, who did the story you referenced, did a follow-up story the next day with more details on the victim and that article states:  Police in Sandusky said 45-year-old James Young of East Canton died after jumping a fence to retrieve some of his belongings. They had fallen while Young was riding the Raptor roller coaster.

[Kenban]

1 hour ago, disco2000 said:

Many private colleges and universities in Ohio and other states, for example, has successfully defended their opinion that they do not have to comply with Open Records Requests as they are a private entity and the police force is not funded with tax payer dollars.

Whether we agree with that or not is irrelevant.  It is up to a court of law to determine the intent of this language and how/if it is applied to a private police force.  And until enough court decisions and/or Ohio Legislatures introduce bills to modify the Open Records Request law language, private entities like Cedar Fair and others will continue to lawyer up and defend their stance that they do not need to comply with an Open Records Request.

 

The Ohio state Supreme Court ruled on this in 2015.  Private police forces in Ohio are subject to open records laws.  Makes no difference how they are funded. This includes colleges who were not successful in defending their opinion that they are not required to comply.

[DoomPlague]

 

 

[Browntggrr]

The bolts corroding from the inside of the car due to the winter weather & salt on the midway does not add up.  Both the snow & salt would have to come from the ground to the undercarriage.  It's not exactly an easy place to get to unless a huge plow truck is literally plowing snow from the midway onto the cars themselves and the snow melt runoff gets under the cars covering.

FHCS are either blackened steel to prevent corrosion or stainless steel which does not corrode.

The ODoA final report will be an interesting read.

[DoomPlague]

23 minutes ago, Browntggrr said:

The bolts corroding from the inside due to the winter weather & salt on the midway does not add up.  Both the snow & salt would have to come from the ground to the undercarriage.  It's not exactly an easy place to get to unless a huge plow truck is literally plowing snow from the midway onto the cars themselves and the snow melt runoff gets under the cars covering.

FHCS are either blackened steel to prevent corrosion or stainless steel which does not corrode.

The ODoA final report will be an interesting read.

I think ElToroRyan's source probably works for the chain and is probably putting some "spin" on it. There's certainly more to it.

[Browntggrr]

10 minutes ago, DoomPlague said:

I think ElToroRyan's source probably works for the chain and is probably putting some "spin" on it. There's certainly more to it.

I sincerely hope that is not the case.

It would be a terrible disservice to both future guests but more importantly the injured guest.

[JimParker85]

I really enjoy his channel. The vlogs are fun and his problematic coasters series are super interesting. We'll see if this ends up being right or not. 

[jcgoble3]

Posted without comment:
https://www.facebook.com/539706336051128/posts/4698017320219988/

[flightoffear1996]

Prayers for her family!

[Shaggy]

Such a terrible tragedy.  God bless her and those looking after her.

[BoddaH1994]

That's so terrible. That's a fate worse than death by some arguments. I sure how she defies the odds and makes a better recovery than expected.

[BeeastFarmer]

Unfortunately, she is not alone.  Cuntless ATV/car/tractor and all other matter of mechanical accidents put people in far worse situations.  

[Browntggrr]

I hope & pray that she beats the odds & can make a full recovery.

It is so disturbing to think having a day of fun out can result in such a life-changing tragedy.

[BeeastFarmer]

Report is finally out:

Ohio Department of Agriculture completes investigation into Top Thrill Dragster incident | WSYX (abc6onyourside.com)

[Shaggy]

Such a sad incident all the way around.  I feel so badly for the victim, but I do take solace that there was no negligence involved.

I hope the victim can receive some sort of compensation (both physical and emotional) for this horrible, horrible accident.

I suppose the park's attention will now turn to continuation of the ride itself.  It is, arguably, Cedar Point's most well known and noteworthy ride.  However, even before this incident, it was routinely plagued with extensive downtime.  At some point, they have to debate the worthiness of its continued operation.  The large plot of land on which it resides is extremely valuable real-estate and could be used for another, new, landmark attraction.  I suppose they'll weigh options like putting up safety fencing/netting, or re-routing the queue.  However, it wouldn't shock me if they opt to pull the plug altogether.  Even with the ODoA findings, it leaves the ride with a huge black cloud looming over it.