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SonofBaconator

Vortex's Replacement?

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On 3/29/2020 at 12:17 AM, FUN&ONLY! said:

I don’t think any Cedar Fair parks will get an RMC anytime soon after all of the problems Steel Vengeance had/has. They are the new Intamin in Cedar Fair’s eyes. I would love to be wrong though.

What are some of the issues they've had? General downtime?

I think calling them the "new Intamin" seems a little extreme.

Top Thrill Dragster didn't run right for a long time and the trains are still shortened to ensure it clears the hill. Maverick and Intimidator 305, both because of excessive g-forces, had to be redesigned before opening or shortly after opening. Shoot the Rapids could have easily killed people.

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8 hours ago, KI Guy said:

What are some of the issues they've had? General downtime?

I think calling them the "new Intamin" seems a little extreme.

Top Thrill Dragster didn't run right for a long time and the trains are still shortened to ensure it clears the hill. Maverick and Intimidator 305, both because of excessive g-forces, had to be redesigned before opening or shortly after opening. Shoot the Rapids could have easily killed people.

While Twisted Timbers and RailBlazer have had minor problems, Steel Vengeance has had and continues to have a plethora of problems. Not only were there problems running three trains, but every time the ride runs, the structure tears itself apart. Maintenance crews have to work around the clock repairing the structure and replacing up stop wheels as they constantly wear out. In addition, while this is not RMC’s fault, Cedar Fair has had a hard time with The cell phone policies on all of their RMC’s due to the nature of the rides. While this may not seem like a reason to avoid purchasing similar rides from RMC, Cedar Fair knows the cell phone policy is not popular among guests and slows down operations. Unless they can seriously rethink their cell phone policy, there is no reason to build a new ride with the same policy. Also, RMC’s are liked by enthusiasts way more than the average park guest. While Steel Vengeance, Twisted Timbers, and RailBlazer are all decently popular, the average park guests still line up for GateKeeper and Valravn over Steel Vengeance. In fact, Steel Vengeance did not even rank in Cedar Point 5 most ridden rides in its opening year. Rides like Millennium Force, Magnum XL 200, GateKeeper, and Valravn all had more riders than Steel Vengeance because these are the rides that interest most guests.

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I would like to see a B&M flyer. A large one that would be in the same scale as Tatsu. With that being said I think as some point we will see a launched multi-looper in the spot. It seems to make the most sense right now. 

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10 hours ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

. Rides like Millennium Force, Magnum XL 200, GateKeeper, and Valravn all had more riders than Steel Vengeance because these are the rides that interest most guests.

Did you take into account the reduced capacity for Steel Vengeance?  Eliminating that (which is theory vs reality), do you think your statement would hold true if each ride had a capacity of 1000 pph and was hitting that?

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1 hour ago, BeeastFarmer said:

Did you take into account the reduced capacity for Steel Vengeance?  Eliminating that (which is theory vs reality), do you think your statement would hold true if each ride had a capacity of 1000 pph and was hitting that?

Steel Vengeance’s reduced capacity (mainly due to problems running three trains and slow loading processes) definitely affects its ridership numbers, but this lower capacity that it has definitely gives Cedar Fair a reason to not work with RMC on another large project. If Kings Island were to build an RMC, how does Cedar Fair know that it will not suffer  the same problems as Steel Vengeance from when it comes to capacity. As far a ride popularity goes, Steel Vengeance still attracts large crowds, but it is not necessarily the GP favorite. Most GP consider it a wooden rollercoaster, and rides like GateKeeper, Valravn, and Millennium Force seem more attractive to them. The ride experience also may be a little too extreme for some guests. At Dollywood for example, the guest favorite is definitely Wild Eagle, not Lightning Rod no matter what enthusiasts say.

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22 hours ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

Not only were there problems running three trains, but every time the ride runs, the structure tears itself apart.

Thanks for the info. I wonder if this is partially to blame on the mostly wooden structure. Since a Kings Island RMC coaster would have to be built from the ground up, it could be made with a full steel structure. Maybe KI could get the first RMC T-Rex design.

22 hours ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

Also, RMC’s are liked by enthusiasts way more than the average park guest.

While this makes sense and I believe it to be true, I don't think that means that a big park should not build high intensity coasters like Steel Vengeance. Different coasters appealing to different riders is okay and a good thing. Just as more mild coasters (by today's standards) like Gemini and Iron Dragon serve their purpose, more intense ones like Steel Vengeance and Maverick have a place.

 

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When Steel Vengeance was built, RMC utilized a lot of the original structure and built up. In fact, there's a decent amount of wood from the original Mean Streak structure that isn't necessarily essential.

unnamed (3).jpg

http://www.incrediblecoasters.com/SteelVengeancePhotos.html

Look at Iron Gwazi which is pretty much a ground up coaster compared to Steel Vengeance. The support structure is minimalistic and is very similar to Six Flags Great America's Goliath.

hvgwzd4wlm541.jpg

https://amp.reddit.com/r/rollercoasters/comments/ecwh6e/iron_gwazis_drop/

I think you'll start to see more and more of these new ground up hybrids and wooden coasters have less supports than people would think which will be nice for carpenters who have to inspect less wood

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I'd conjecture that CP wanted to keep the look of a wood coaster to go along with Frontier Town.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

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On 5/7/2020 at 8:18 PM, SonofBaconator said:

Look at Iron Gwazi which is pretty much a ground up coaster compared to Steel Vengeance. The support structure is minimalistic and is very similar to Six Flags Great America's Goliath.

Another thing RMC did with Iron Gwazi was add steel supports on the outside of the larger turns with mostly wooden supports that had been reused. I would have to imagine this was something they learned after the troubles they've had with Steel Vengeance since the ride stats are pretty similar

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On 5/7/2020 at 1:38 AM, FUN&ONLY! said:

but every time the ride runs, the structure tears itself apart. Maintenance crews have to work around the clock repairing the structure and replacing up stop wheels as they constantly wear out. 

This sounds very similar to what happened with The Bat. Do you think SV will have just as short of a lifespan?

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17 minutes ago, DiamondBeast said:

This sounds very similar to what happened with The Bat. Do you think SV will have just as short of a lifespan?

I think Cedar Point will try to reinforce the structure as much as they can, and I think they will try to keep it around as possible. However, I don’t see it lasting as long as any of their B&M’s.

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29 minutes ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

I think Cedar Point will try to reinforce the structure as much as they can, and I think they will try to keep it around as possible. However, I don’t see it lasting as long as any of their B&M’s.

Do you think it will reach it's 15th anniversary? Idk about the average lifespan of a RMC hybrid, but that sounds like an ok lifespan for a coaster. 

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Cedar Point knows they have an incredible ride. They’ll probably try to keep Steel Vengeance operating for as long as they can.

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20 hours ago, DiamondBeast said:

Do you think it will reach it's 15th anniversary? Idk about the average lifespan of a RMC hybrid, but that sounds like an ok lifespan for a coaster. 

15 years does not cut it in the coaster world. That would be considered a failure.

Imagine Diamondback only having 4 more years left in it after this season. There's no way, (thank goodness :)).

For their accounting, I'd think the coaster's asset value would be amortized over 30 years or so. 

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33 minutes ago, KI Guy said:

15 years does not cut it in the coaster world. That would be considered a failure.

Imagine Diamondback only having 4 more years left in it after this season. There's no way, (thank goodness :)).

For their accounting, I'd think the coaster's asset value would be amortized over 30 years or so. 

Seeing how much effort they were putting into Steel Vengeance during the night makes you wonder how long it will be around.  You could stay at Breakers and literally see them welding on that coaster in the middle of the night.  There were reasons why a chunk of last season it was removed from ERT and wouldn't open until after noon...  I had predicted to others on this forum during construction that it looked to me to be their Son of Beast...time will tell, but I don't think it will have the long life that many expect it to see.  Even if it is a great ride, at some point they will not want to continue that type of continual maintenance on it, and at some point, they will not be able to do anything else to it - what RMC an RMC:P....hey a new business model for them LOL.

Regarding accounting, there are so many tax regulations that a good accountant will most likely use the Modified Accelerated Cost Recovery System (MACRS), which is a tax depreciation system allowed in the United States, to provide their employer or client with the best tax rate available (this basically depreciates it heavier on the front end and usually accelerates the asset value faster like in 7-10 years, so it could depreciate 20% in it's second year).  The IRS allows this and many companies use this method of depreciation because it allows them to "write-off" larger capital expenditures in the first few years of owning an asset, thus reducing their overall tax liability for that tax year, thus encouraging more spending.  Now a company may be paying off on the item for a lot longer, but from an accounting standpoint they want to write-it off ASAP.

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I'm no coaster engineer so don't quote me on this but I think they would continue to improve the structure of Steel Vengeance before they would ever remove it. Iron Gwazi, as stated by someone else, has a decent amount of steel in its support structure so its not completely out of the question that more steel might be brought in later on in Steel Vengeance's life.

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5 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

I'm no coaster engineer so don't quote me on this but I think they would continue to improve the structure of Steel Vengeance before they would ever remove it. Iron Gwazi, as stated by someone else, has a decent amount of steel in its support structure so its not completely out of the question that more steel might be brought in later on in Steel Vengeance's life.

Well that would be an RMC of an RMC :P

Yes, they could always go more steel, but at some point that cost-benefit ratio just doesn't play out - the same reasons why we don't see them replace steel components on a steel coaster and they simply demo it. 

Especially since they had already built the ride and the infrastructure is in place.  They would probably have to remove wood support members to get steel into the proper places - could result in significant demo of the ride in order to put in these steel supports, and that simply increases costs. 

Doesn't mean it won't happen, but the longer we go, the less likely.  The best time to have done that would have been it's first year and CF put the screws to RMC to make it right at their expense.  5-10 years down the road it will all fall in CF's lap to pay for the improvements.

Anything is possible, but I don't see them taking out the mostly wood lift hill and putting in what Iron Gwazi has for a lift hill as an example.

Depending on when/if they open, they now do get an extra half year/possibly another season out of it due to the closure:P

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I think two seasons is too early to talk about demolishing a popular coaster with some maintenance gremlins.

Could someone elaborate on the extent of the mechanical troubles?

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10 hours ago, KI Guy said:

15 years does not cut it in the coaster world. That would be considered a failure. 

 

Yeah, I must admit that the 15 year mark does seem rather short considering how long a coaster like a B&M can last.

I wouldn't be too upset to only get to spend a decade and a half with a coaster, though. Don't get me wrong I want to see any good coaster have a lifespan as long as The Beast's, but if it only gets a short amount of time then I hope it can at least make it to it's 15th anniversary. 

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A lot of people are forgetting how ling coasters can last. Magnum XL 2000 is over 30 years old, in fact there are a ton of coasters still around that are well over 30. 15 years old shouldn't be the bar for coasters.

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12 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

A lot of people are forgetting how ling coasters can last. Magnum XL 2000 is over 30 years old, in fact there are a ton of coasters still around that are well over 30. 15 years old shouldn't be the bar for coasters.

Im just saying 15 years is a good minimum, at least for me. If a coaster is ment to last a short time(say it has problems or some other reason), I hope it can last at least 15 seasons. 

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Im just saying 15 years is a good minimum, at least for me. If a coaster is ment to last a short time(say it has problems or some other reason), I hope it can last at least 15 seasons. 

i’d go with 20 at least, 15’s still way too low...
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54 minutes ago, Marc3E said:


i’d go with 20 at least, 15’s still way too low...

Service life, in my opinion, is subjective to the park a coaster sits in as well as the company that owns that park. 

Sometimes a park will remove an older coaster to make way for a newer, more reliable one: Boomerang at Knotts, Firehawk at KI, etc. Cedar Fair tends to use this practice the most out of any other chain because they have the capital to do so. You can also see Universal and Sea World Parks do the same thing but not as much. Six Flags seems to be the minority at this as they barely remove their older or less reliable coasters opting to convert them or relocate them to a less popular park. In a way they follow the "one man's trash" mindset. The only time that I could recall them removing an older attraction for a newer coaster would be when they removed Great American Scream Machine at Great Adventure to make room for Green Lantern which itself was an older coaster that was relocated.

If a ride is not popular, too painful and/or costs too much money to justify continued operation, Cedar Fair will most likely tear it down. Steel Vengeance is still extremely popular and the new coaster at CP so I'm sure the company will do everything in its power to keep it running.

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1 hour ago, SonofBaconator said:

Service life, in my opinion, is subjective to the park a coaster sits in as well as the company that owns that park. 

Sometimes a park will remove an older coaster to make way for a newer, more reliable one: Boomerang at Knotts, Firehawk at KI, etc. Cedar Fair tends to use this practice the most out of any other chain because they have the capital to do so. You can also see Universal and Sea World Parks do the same thing but not as much. Six Flags seems to be the minority at this as they barely remove their older or less reliable coasters opting to convert them or relocate them to a less popular park. In a way they follow the "one man's trash" mindset. The only time that I could recall them removing an older attraction for a newer coaster would be when they removed Great American Scream Machine at Great Adventure to make room for Green Lantern which itself was an older coaster that was relocated.

If a ride is not popular, too painful and/or costs too much money to justify continued operation, Cedar Fair will most likely tear it down. Steel Vengeance is still extremely popular and the new coaster at CP so I'm sure the company will do everything in its power to keep it running.

You make a very good point! 

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Give me the Intamin multi launch - Something like Pantheon! 

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Give me the Intamin multi launch - Something like Pantheon! 

yes please
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3 hours ago, Maverick44 said:

Give me the Intamin multi launch - Something like Pantheon! 

All Intamin jokes aside, an Intamin blitz/multi-launch is what I have always wanted at Kings Island. It is my first pick to replace Vortex, but I could see Cedar Fair going with Mack instead.

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7 minutes ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

All Intamin jokes aside, an Intamin blitz/multi-launch is what I have always wanted at Kings Island. It is my first pick to replace Vortex, but I could see Cedar Fair going with Mack instead.

Mack launches suck!!!!! I want Pantheon and the Universal coaster to do amazing so maybe Cf will say..." hey they have made 3 of CP's top 5 coasters. maybe we should take a look again" haha

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Mack just makes what they're directed to. The ones in the US are weaker but they have shown that they can make the fast intense ones too. Coasters like Blue Fire and Helix would be great additions. I would love an Intamin Blitz like Maverick but I don't feel they have improved their record enough but could with their new installations but can't see CF going back to them just yet when they have other options. Hagrid had a lots of issues and downtime when it opened (though that's to be expected with all the systems in play and working out the bugs), but if it can sustain it's operational capabilities now as well as Pantheon and the Velocicoaster perform well I could see them possibly become a viable option again.

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