DispatchMaster

Regarding the Schlitterbahn claim, if that made any sense at all, why wouldn't they allow, say, Knott's pass holders from being able to attend? You seem very hung up on equating "benefits" to mean literally anything, when I take it at face value to mean what they say - that these passes provide access to the parks during their public operating hours and during those visits provide additional benefits. And I take it to mean that because that is precisely what they spell out in the description and purchase terms.

No, I didn't mean to imply they've changed anything, because they haven't! So poor/nonsensical wording on my part in what was an attempt to point out that if you purchased a season pass in October, there was zero indication that these passes provide access to special events outside the public operating season. And that hasn't changed. Special events have never and are not now advertised on the storefront or season pass pages as a benefit of purchasing a season pass. I don't dispute that. I just contend that, first of all, this is primarily the fault of the purchaser, and second, that this is not remotely a "bait and switch", since, for the billionth time, these events were never advertised as a benefit to purchasing a season pass. Anyone believing so was making an assumption. And sure, that assumption was (somewhat naively) based on previous practice, but I just don't understand why someone would make that assumption and then blame the company when their assumption was incorrect. I am not following what you're arguing here. What screenshot shows that Schlitterbahn Platinum Pass holders can attend these special events? EDIT - I see it now. Finally, that you're repeatedly relying on ad hominem "LOL yur a Cedar Fair lawyer LOLOLOL" nonsense speaks to how flaccid your argument is, in my view.

And it still is, because both provide access to the parks during the public operating season. Nothing has changed at all relative to what the purchase agreement was back in September, October, November, December, January, February, and almost all of March. Nothing. So considering they are not removing any advertised benefit, how on Earth could anyone in their right mind consider this a "bait and switch"? In order for it to be a "bait and switch" move, there has to be bait, right? And the so-called "bait", in this case, was never announced as a benefit to purchasing a season pass, and still isn't listed as a benefit on the storefront. That some people assumed their pass provided something that was never advertised is their fault, not the parks'.

The Voyage is not a good example, considering how surgically it was built in the woods back there. They basically only removed enough trees for the track and access roads, just like The Beast when it was built. Thunderbird opened things up a little more, but still not that much. The Beast has also had quite a lot more time for things to grow back in than The Voyage has so far. The Voyage, with how much forest was preserved, and how they utilized the terrain, is a lot more like The Beast than it is different. Except The Voyage is a better coaster by pretty much every conceivable metric, which should be the case given how much newer it is. But yes, it is almost certainly cheaper to raze the entire plot when building something, since there's less need for specialized equipment, etc., for working in tight or inaccessible spaces. But there are ways to do it right. When CP removed WWL, whose plot was a veritable forest after more than two decades, they razed the entire plot. While shocking and sad to see at the time, this was the right move, since the coaster's layout, which is excellent, could be designed without the additional restrictions posed by existing landscape. But they did right by planting quite a lot of new trees back there. Hopefully they do the same for this project at KI, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm sorry, who are you referring to with this? And why is a throwaway phrase I used to describe whiny enthusiasts being used as that person's moniker?

Based on recent practices, I would bet they simply found it easier to just clear cut everything rather than endure the time/cost of having to work around existing trees. It's a disappointing trend.

I just don't understand how someone would interpret that description to mean anything other than what is says, which is that you're buying a season pass which grants access to the park(s) during their public operating season(s). A season pass gets you unlimited access to the park during the public operating season, and in addition to that, upgrading to a Platinum Pass grants additional benefits the pass holder can enjoy during the public operating season. Expecting anything different than what is clearly spelled out in the product description seems foolish, regardless of what the product terms were historically. I can't imagine any first-time pass purchaser reading the purchase description and taking that to mean it also provides access to special or private events. And any long-time passholders would surely be aware of the "unethical bait and switch" tactics the company is so famous for, and would accordingly never make such a silly assumption, right? No, instead it's: YOU ARE AN UNETHICAL COMPANY!!! PLEASE TAKE MY HARD-EARNED MONEY RIGHT NOW!!! Yes, because it quite literally says "Kings Island passholders"! Why on Earth would anyone in their right mind think "Kings Island passholders" also includes "Carowinds passholders" or "Toledo Zoo passholders", when it clearly and explicitly states the event is for "Kings Island" passholders? Now, maybe the event will include other CF passholders, but it would be pretty foolish to assume that would be the case based on the description of the event. Yes, and that was clearly stated in the CP Blog: It states, very clearly, that the event is open to Platinum Passholders, without any further park-specific qualification. But more to the point, there was no indication at the time of purchasing a 2018 pass that the pass would grant access to offseason special events, which, unless I'm missing something, is exactly the case with the TT2 preview. I've been buying season passes for a long time prior to the last few years. And I never, not once, assumed the pass I purchased entitled me to anything beyond what was explicitly stated in the purchase terms. Other people obviously feel more entitled, but I don't see why that's the vendor's fault.

Oh NOES!!11!!!111! My All Park Passport doesn't get me into this event?!?@!?@!?!?!?! Typical CF bait and switch!!11!!!1!

Anyone calling this a "bait and switch" is just fundamentally detached from reality, so of course the same usual suspects around here are calling this a "bait and switch". This is an event happening before the park opens for the season. Anyone who expected their KI-purchased pass to get them access to Cedar Point before Cedar Point opened for the season is engaging in willful self-delusion. But, you know, some folks are always playing the victim, so no surprise that the same usual suspects are playing that role here. It looks exhausting, but to each their own.

OK, maybe it's just uniquely a southern Ohio thing where people are commonly both very stupid and simultaneously wealthy enough to afford large quantities of alcohol at captive audience prices? As I said, I'm making a generalization, which was in part a joke, and was not an absolute, blanket statement of fact. That you can point to anecdotal exceptions is great and all, but not a compelling counter argument to the point I was making, which is that making alcohol available at the old Subway location isn't likely to have any measurable impact on the quantity of "fights and misbehavior" exists at amusement parks.

If that's the case, the booze was priced too low.

I'm generalizing here, but typically speaking there's not a lot of Venn overlap between people who would get in to a fistfight and those who can afford to get drunk at an amusement park.

The way the TT2 project seems to be going, they can improve on anything Intamin has delivered in the last decade. But again, very low bar to clear.

What I'm most excited about with regard to TT2 isn't the ride itself, it's that we have new major player who can competently deliver marquee, record-setting rides. And it's a low bar to set, but if this ride is more reliable than Intamin's typical dreck, it'll be exciting to see what else Zamperla can pull off.

The issue is that the park didn't provide alternate low-cost housing for the 40-something year old, but the park's intent was good, in that they weren't keen on the idea of housing 40-somethings alongside 18 year old kids.

The thing about alcoholic beverages at places with a captive audience is that they don't need to do much volume with those margins to be a money maker. But if the lines at other places with captive audiences are any indication, they will do a fair amount of volume as well.

Not only can negative word spread faster than ever, there are also more entertainment choices now, so tougher competition.

Those outdated window ordering buildings have dismal capacity, which is why parks are moving away from them and going with the more modern Harmony Hall/Grand Pavilion type eateries that can not only more efficiently handle volume, but also centralizes food service staff. So making that a specialty cocktail spot makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, it appears to be in the same vein as CP's Engine Company Spirits, which sells only alcohol-based beverages.

Right, and that's exactly the problem with their strategy! Pass holders do, of course, get a tremendous amount of value out of their purchase. But that's just another way of saying that pass holders produce far less profit per visit compared to the once per year (or whatever) visitor. And they are wrong to use that as their long term strategy. Matt Ouimet understood the business quite well, and the way he distilled it down was quite simple - the parks are in the business of making memories, and more broadly, leveraging those memories to create long-term, generational visitors. Many of us love going to these parks because we have great memories of visiting as kids, so we seek to recreate, relive, and share those memories and experiences with our kids, so they can share it with theirs, and so on down the line. It's a long game, not a short one. But the chain isn't making moves that indicate they are concerned with the long term vision of the parks. Decimating live entertainment, neutering operations, and especially moving their product down market price-wise are all short term moves that reek of the "must produce increased profit margin each quarter" mentality that is unavoidably a race to the bottom, because, at a certain point you've tapped out the market in terms of population, so they're beholden to generate revenue from that fixed population. Lowering ticket prices just means they're targeting customers who are seeking "value" at the expense of attracting customers who are willing to pay a premium for a more premium product. And those customers willing to pay for a more premium product will instead go create lasting memories at the chain's competition, and thus create generational visitors, none of whom will ever set foot in a CF/SF park.

Anecdotally, I know a lot of people who have visited Pigeon Forge in recent years, and people that have frequented the area for many years have commented on the region's increased popularity. As word of mouth about the area continues to spread, DW will no doubt benefit. And good for them, it's nice to see well-run properties reap the rewards of wise investment and understanding that they're in the business of creating memories, rather than the current SF/CF approach, which seems purely transactional with no long term strategy. That said, DW is not going to siphon off guests from "nearby" SF/CF parks, because there really aren't any. What SF/CF should be worried about is their regional parks losing to their regional competition - other entertainment options.

Individually, no. But I speak from experience that it feels good to not hand over hard-earned money to an entity that doesn't value your business. Spending that money at Dollywood is a wise choice, and I'm sure you guys will have a great time there! I'm jealous!

I wouldn't expect it to change until enough people move from "hesitant to" to "unwilling to". Hard to say when things will reach that tipping point.

I am deeply skeptical that this move will result in substantial growth with the existing CF management team. I mean, they've done nothing but diminish and cheapen the product for the last several years, so it seems much more likely that CF will become more like SF than the other way around. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.

Indeed, and I think the KI team not knowing who their audience is might be the most accurate and charitable way to look at it. When you're deeply involved in a long, substantial project, it's natural to not view the day-to-day happenings as anything more than mundane, uninteresting details. I doubt Tony Clark is super jazzed about queue foundation concrete curing, but that team understands that enthusiasts will find that interesting enough to warrant a picture and a few words.